Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[That Guy]

8 minutes ago, enaon said:

overheating may become a thing of the past

Also Gotway's Commander has a potential of quickly going into the past... Sorry, off topic... :-)

[enaon]

I will take this opportunity to warn my friend @ShanesPlanet and everybody else that uses a 18xl, kingsong is using low quality paste on the heatsink, let alone it uses pads and paste together, but ok, we all know that implementation is not their strong hand. 

Anyway, I looked at an two years old ks18xl, the paste is dry, gone, caput. Be careful, change it or a fail will happen. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by enaon

[enaon]

16 minutes ago, That Guy said:

Also Gotway's Commander has a potential of quickly going into the past... Sorry, off topic... :-)

it will always have a place at the museum of road capable machines that relied on little pc fans for cooling. 

[.....]

23 minutes ago, enaon said:

I will take this opportunity to warn my friend @ShanesPlanet and everybody else that uses a 18xl, kingsong is using low quality paste on the heatsink, let alone it uses pads and paste together, but ok, we all know that implementation is not their strong hand. 

Anyway, I looked at an two years old ks18xl, the paste is dry, gone, caput. Be careful, change it or a fail will happen. 

Noted and thanks. I'll keep an eye on temps, but i do ride it like a sissy anyhow.

I do believe it would be a much shorter list to type, if you would simply warn os uf what is NOT low quality parts. Im pretty sure 'euc spec' is its own phrase aint it? As in great quality, tolerable quality, low quality, euc spec quality... in that order

[enaon]

13 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Noted and thanks. I'll keep an eye on temps, but i do ride it like a sissy anyhow.

I think they are using the accelerometer for the temp, I did not saw one on the heatsink, so you cannot really rely on reported temperature, dry paste will crack and create air gaps, a single mosfet failure is likely before you notice big temperature rise overall. 

It is a strong recommendation, and I would recommend this type of paste, not because it is Greek, but because I do not know another that has long life and can replace pads. 

if one has knowledge of good quality paste/pads suitable for our usage, please let us all know. 

https://www.amazon.com/viscous-thermal-replacement-60g-Aspire/dp/B00K04D3UK

 

Edited October 19, 2021 by enaon

[Paul A]

Indonesia relatively closer to Shenzen than other countries.

Other S20's likely still on ships in transit to Europe and US west coast.

[Grimm10]

Has anyone found a suitable heavy duty spring for the stock DNM shock on the S20?  I'm concerned that the stock 750lb won't be enough for my 250lb frame.

I contacted DNM directly and they responded saying that they don't have a spring more heavy duty than the 750lb one.  I've checked other manufacturers like Fox and Ohlins, and they don't have a heavier duty package either.  The only shocks I found that are listed at over 1000lbs are cheap Chinese ones on Amazon...though these shocks don't have adjustments for compression or rebound.

[mrelwood]

10 hours ago, Grimm10 said:

Has anyone found a suitable heavy duty spring for the stock DNM shock on the S20?  I'm concerned that the stock 750lb won't be enough for my 250lb frame.

I contacted DNM directly and they responded saying that they don't have a spring more heavy duty than the 750lb one.  I've checked other manufacturers like Fox and Ohlins, and they don't have a heavier duty package either.  The only shocks I found that are listed at over 1000lbs are cheap Chinese ones on Amazon...though these shocks don't have adjustments for compression or rebound.

If I were you, I’d be only looking for a replacement spring (of a correct size) and use the original shock.

 Although, I’d only do that after thoroughly testing the original and the ranges of the adjustments.

[Grimm10]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

If I were you, I’d be only looking for a replacement spring (of a correct size) and use the original shock.

 Although, I’d only do that after thoroughly testing the original and the ranges of the adjustments.

That's the issue...I have looked everywhere online for a replacement spring, but no one has an appropriate size/weight. I just wanted to see what was out there now, just in case.  

I understand how the shock on the EUC works, as I've messed around plenty with changing settings on the shocks on my snowmobile.  I'm hoping that cranking up the pressure on the spring will reduce sag, upping the compression will reduce bottoming and lowering the rebound adjustment will reduce the pogostick effect.  A fatboy spring option would seem suitable for a fatboy.  

[Planemo]

I think that KS switching to a coil was a bad move personally. They might have the benefit of reduced stiction but 99.9% of riders wouldnt notice it.

Coil springs really dont have much leeway in terms of rider weight like an air shock does, which is why just about every MTB out there comes with air as stock, even high end ones, as its easy to adjust for rider weight. Only the full-on downhill nutters switch to coils, and they can spend a long time getting the right spring poundage. I fear that many S20's will end up not running anything like the ideal sag...

[Tawpie]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

just about every MTB out there comes with air as stock, even high end ones, as its easy to adjust for rider weight. Only the full-on downhill nutters switch to coils

This has a lot to do with weight of the shock though. For downhill, weight isn't an issue, have to grind your way to the top and people look to save grams.

I'm a bit concerned as well, being a bantam flyweight (ok, I'm really a straw weight but I like bantam flyweight better). I've asked eWheels if they're looking at sources for lighter springs and they are looking. I'm desperately hoping "insufficient sag" isn't going to be a deal breaker for me... I don't want to have to switch to metal armor just to get my weight high enough.

Edited October 19, 2021 by Tawpie

[Planemo]

3 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

This has a lot to do with weight of the shock though. For downhill, weight isn't an issue, have to grind your way to the top and people look to save grams.

I would say it has just about zero to do with weight. Theres not enough difference between them these days. In any event, just about every electric mtb still uses air as well (including £12k+ bikes) where the weight of a rear shock is virtually irrelevant.

The only people who use coils do so in order to get the best possible suspension, nothing else.

[conecones]

I like KS's approach on the shock. A cheap coil shock is more reliable than a cheap air shock. Most riders won't notice if spring weight is slightly too soft or hard - main adjustment is the rebound speed so you don't get bounced when hitting big bumps. Remember most of us ride just fine without suspension - even off road. All this worry about the "right settings" only applies if you are looking at racing and really pushing the suspension to its limits which most will not do, and the ones that do will obviously upgrade the shock to something better anyways.

[enaon]

I think the spring shock is there to make a statement, that the suspension is better etc. I do not like how exposed it is, design wise it seems like a problem. I expect an air shock replacement to be a very common aftermarket mod. 
 

I think even the s18 suspension was excellent, the problem with the s18 is that the "frame" overall is not rigid enough for heavy riders, I just hope the s20 will be solid in that matter. 

Edited October 19, 2021 by enaon

[UniMe]

I'm not surprised that sourcing springs from other makers is turning out to be difficult... it seemed likely that KS would have needed to develop a coil over shock with a custom length to fit the wheel. If this turns out to be true, the onus is on them to ensure a range of spring weights to suit all riders, unless they decide to spec a minimum weight for the wheel.

Rebound damping is the issue for sure @conecones, which is why I asked Jack about this earlier in the thread. He reassured me that the valving of the wheel provides good rebound damping with the heavier of the two springs. There will be a limit though, and the shock will probably wear faster with the heavier spring. I'm doubtful that very heavy riders will be able to simply source a heavier spring and still expect the rebound damping to function properly, or for the valving in the air component of the shock to be in any way durable.

Edited October 19, 2021 by UniMe

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, conecones said:

Most riders won't notice if spring weight is slightly too soft or hard

Theres no way I would suffer the compromises of a suspension wheel without it being 'right'. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. Given that most coil springs are supplied in 25lb increments, it doesnt take much to deviate from the optimal 25% sag. So it might not be 'slightly' too soft or hard at all. It could be miles out.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

- main adjustment is the rebound speed

All the rebound control in the world is pointless if the spring is hardly moving.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

All this worry about the "right settings" only applies if you are looking at racing and really pushing the suspension to its limits

I disagree. Further, a badly set up suspension could be more dangerous than a non sus wheel if the rider becomes complacent and makes assumptions about whether the wheel is going to soak up a bump.

1 hour ago, conecones said:

and the ones that do will obviously upgrade the shock to something better anyways.

I presume by going back to an air shock..

The DNM they were using on the S18 is indeed a cheap air shock, but I would still prefer it over a cheap coil shock with an incorrect poundage spring. YMMV.

[wwwooooqq]

On 10/19/2021 at 8:04 AM, enaon said:

I think it is generally the advantage of having someone who actually knows what he is doing design the cooling system. 

the good thing is that abrams hero and v12 looks like they copied it, so overheating may become a thing of the past. 

 

But to be fair, this idea was first found on ninebot s2/a1, it took us 3-4 years, but we got there. 

ps. the ninebot a2/s1 even has the thermometer inside the heatsink, it will take us 1-2 years more, but we will get there too. 

In fact, there was still gt16 at that time

[enaon]

10 hours ago, wwwooooqq said:

In fact, there was still gt16 at that time

nice, I never saw one up close, but I just watched a teardown yt video, you are correct, the gt16 was very nice. 

Do you happen to know what the connection between Rockwheel and Kingsong is? They use the same BT protocol, a guy from france had his GT16 conected to my watch using the KS profile. 

Edited October 20, 2021 by enaon

[conecones]

18 hours ago, Planemo said:

Theres no way I would suffer the compromises of a suspension wheel without it being 'right'. Otherwise I wouldn't bother. Given that most coil springs are supplied in 25lb increments, it doesnt take much to deviate from the optimal 25% sag. So it might not be 'slightly' too soft or hard at all. It could be miles out.

All the rebound control in the world is pointless if the spring is hardly moving.

I disagree. Further, a badly set up suspension could be more dangerous than a non sus wheel if the rider becomes complacent and makes assumptions about whether the wheel is going to soak up a bump.

I presume by going back to an air shock..

The DNM they were using on the S18 is indeed a cheap air shock, but I would still prefer it over a cheap coil shock with an incorrect poundage spring. YMMV.

Let's be real, KS is marketing this wheel to the masses with the typical rider cruising around on the streets, not blasting through gnarly bike trails as fast as possible needing every bit of suspension performance they can get to stay on the wheel. The typical rider will probably not know much about suspension and just ride it till something breaks (like most cyclists). In that usage case, you need to consider KS' perspective of long term reliability. As a coil shock wears, the compression and rebound gets weaker and you'll find yourself adjusting the dials until enough oil starts leaking and making weird sounds - but the shock still sort of works (ie. it still absorbs bumps). When an air shock (especially cheap one) wears, you lose air pressure and so you'll keep pumping it up until eventually the seal blows and the shock gets stuck down since the positive chamber seal is usually the first to go. I don't want to imagine what happens when an air shock blows while hitting pothole at 50+ km/h. Opening said shock in a "stuck down" position is also extremely dangerous even for experienced bike mechanics. 

In any case, I get that being enthusiasts we all want everything perfect but KS said from the get-go this is a cheap shock to satisfy most users. If you're one of those guys that refuses to ride a bike with tire pressure 2psi too low or a shock tuned to 20% sag instead of 25%, or a wheelset that weighs 100g extra, then there's a huge aftermarket to satisfy those needs. From my personal experience riding and building my own custom MTB's, settings don't matter nearly as much as people think. Technique and letting your body enough time to adjust to and get familiar with whatever settings you ride is much more important.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, conecones said:

From my personal experience riding and building my own custom MTB's, settings don't matter nearly as much as people think.

And from my personal experience riding and building my own custom MTB's, theres a shit ton of people out there riding around with suspension set up so badly they may as well not have it.

Like you say though, the masses wont have a clue. I wonder how many S18 riders had no idea there was anything wrong with their binding linkages until one rider worked it out.

I'm not saying I want everything perfect. In fact a DNM shock can be set up to work amazingly well for its price. (I have one on an MTB).

I will leave it there, I dont want to criticise this wheel, I would just prefer an air shock thats all.

[Tawpie]

I'm not nearly good enough to be considered a hard core off-roader, and I have near zero with unicycle suspension. But I would like to be able to set mine up properly for my weight... if I'm going to pay the range and weight penalty, it might as well work as it was intended. Hopefully we can source different springs without waiting too many months for our ships to come in.

[Rawnei]

Small off-road clip of the S20 in Jacks review of the commander here (linked to 3:14):

 

[Grimm10]

I'm waiting for some more video on the S20 too.

[That Guy]

Encouraging news is that “S20 ruined Jack’s experience” on the Commander (in the summary part of the video). :-)

[Ferreal]

On 10/22/2021 at 12:28 PM, That Guy said:

Encouraging news is that “S20 ruined Jack’s experience” on the Commander (in the summary part of the video). :-)

Isn't Jack the salesman for KingSong?