Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Lukasz]

9 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Why is the choice between either traditional motors with tiny axles or else hollow-bore motors with massive-diameter bearings such that the bearing is *so* much closer to the outside diameter of the wheel and the water/dust/mud/etc there--why not a traditional motor that just had an axle/hollow-bore but only like twice the diameter of the traditional axles? Wouldn't that give plenty more room for heavier guage wires, without the problems that have plagued hollow-bore motor designs up until now?

On this new motor KS went exactly this way - used larger bearings than in regular old axle wheels, but much smaller than Gotway,  probably even smaller than Inmotion. This seems to be very good move - to keep whole solution stiff, relatively light, and the bearings small, (and inexpensive) also not that heavy like in GW

Edited September 28, 2021 by Lukasz

[Tawpie]

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

No...

 

4 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

No...

True and true. I know of no rule, law, or physics that prevent a standard hub motor from having a large diameter and thus enjoying the stated benefits. But for now, and for whatever reason, we're seeing the large diameter wheels fitted with hollow motors. I do believe this has everything to do with keeping the magnets as close to the edge of the rim as practicable lest you lack the thrust or resolution to balance the wheel… balancing being the first order of business, acceleration and braking second. Why did the designers choose hollow? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. But that's what's getting designed in.

Maybe it is just so that you can run heaver gauge wiring to the coils, maybe it simplifies the hanger system, maybe large diameter center axle motors aren't catalog parts. Maybe the solid axle necessary to support drops on a 35+ kg wheel is too expensive. Or too something else. Maybe hollow motors just suck in general so there's no market and they're cheap. Maybe it's just marketing.

I'm just guessing that going hollow allows the engineer to balance all of the tradeoffs to meet the company's goals.

[wwwooooqq]

1 hour ago, Tawpie said:

 

True and true. I know of no rule, law, or physics that prevent a standard hub motor from having a large diameter and thus enjoying the stated benefits. But for now, and for whatever reason, we're seeing the large diameter wheels fitted with hollow motors. I do believe this has everything to do with keeping the magnets as close to the edge of the rim as practicable lest you lack the thrust or resolution to balance the wheel… balancing being the first order of business, acceleration and braking second. Why did the designers choose hollow? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯. But that's what's getting designed in.

Maybe it is just so that you can run heaver gauge wiring to the coils, maybe it simplifies the hanger system, maybe large diameter center axle motors aren't catalog parts. Maybe the solid axle necessary to support drops on a 35+ kg wheel is too expensive. Or too something else. Maybe hollow motors just suck in general so there's no market and they're cheap. Maybe it's just marketing.

I'm just guessing that going hollow allows the engineer to balance all of the tradeoffs to meet the company's goals.

I like the word balance. Design is really a game process. Like you said, cost and quality, performance and safety, strength and light weight. Keeping the old design is definitely the safest, lowest cost, and most mature, but now all start to choose hollows. The motor proves that the old design has reached its limit, and it is necessary to find a new breakthrough design. Risks will follow, heavier, less reliable and more expensive. Everyone wants millions of ranges, millions of power, and baby's weight. All improvements must be matched with corresponding designs. Then balance is very important. Just like the barrel theory,  improve one piece, also need others. promote

[mrelwood]

On 9/26/2021 at 5:57 PM, mhpr262 said:

That tire looks like you will never have to worry about bits of glass or sharp gravel on dirt roads again. Those have given me three flats already with my V10F tire, twice I was  miles away from my home or car and the last time I almost collapsed with a heat stroke from having to push it back in my office clothes in the miday sun.

I wish you had heard of Slime, Goop, and other sealants we use in EUCs exactly so that the scenario you experienced wouldn’t happen! 

4 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Why is the choice between either traditional motors with tiny axles or else hollow-bore motors with massive-diameter bearings such that the bearing is *so* much closer to the outside diameter of the wheel and the water/dust/mud/etc there

I don’t think that the distance is relevant here. The V11 bearings are further from the ground than the bearings on any 14” wheel. Yet 14” wheels don’t have much of an issue with bearings getting water and crud inside.

 Besides, ride a few thousand km and the bearings will be covered with a thick layer of all kinds of crud, no matter which diameter the tire or the bearings is.

My guess is that the internal seal on a large bearings is simply not as good in keeping the crud out. Maybe it can’t be made as tight, or maybe the seal is too narrow and thin in relation to the diameter to create a firm seal, etc.

Quote

--why not a traditional motor that just had an axle/hollow-bore but only like twice the diameter of the traditional axles?

That might not get enough distance between the motor bolts to be stable and durable.

 

Quote

I do believe this has everything to do with keeping the magnets as close to the edge of the rim

The magnets and the hub are located literally as far from each other that they can in an electric motor. The hub size has nothing to do with how close the magnets are to the edge of the rim.

Quote

Why did the designers choose hollow?

One major factor is the width. Having the ability to put even a thick vertical shock absorber tube right across the center of the wheel. Had the V11 design used a standard axle, the wheel shell would’ve been about two inches wider.

[Paul A]

Kits with CO2 cylinders for tyre inflation are compact and light weight.

About the size of a 28650 battery, fits in a pocket.

Amazon, approximately $25.

https://www.amazon.com/CXWXC-CO2-Inflator-x16g-Cartridges/dp/B08HH97LLP/ref=sxin_13_pa_sp_search_thematic_sspa?crid=1H7HEAL4YIYJ&cv_ct_cx=tire+inflator+c02&dchild=1&keywords=tire+inflator+c02&pd_rd_i=B08HH97LLP&pd_rd_r=f621d4f8-b4b4-4bc9-91d6-0b8cb36fe295&pd_rd_w=9QHHx&pd_rd_wg=eeQEZ&pf_rd_p=51acd426-85cf-466c-86ba-e30541e5c5b5&pf_rd_r=ECTXXFT5ERPYGZJ9KVQE&qid=1632886672&sprefix=tyre+inflate+c%2Caps%2C408&sr=1-3-a73d1c8c-2fd2-4f19-aa41-2df022bcb241-spons&psc=1&spLa=ZW5jcnlwdGVkUXVhbGlmaWVyPUFNQVM2U1RJQ01IRk4mZW5jcnlwdGVkSWQ9QTA1OTgyOTQyWU05TVdaVlNXVFExJmVuY3J5cHRlZEFkSWQ9QTA4MTg4ODczQldTNjNIS1VaNlZVJndpZGdldE5hbWU9c3Bfc2VhcmNoX3RoZW1hdGljJmFjdGlvbj1jbGlja1JlZGlyZWN0JmRvTm90TG9nQ2xpY2s9dHJ1ZQ==

 

[Lukasz]

6 hours ago, Paul A said:

Kits with CO2 cylinders for tyre inflation are compact and light weight.

About the size of a 28650 battery, fits in a pocket.

Amazon, approximately $25.

We get off-topic here again....  but Lezyne bike pump cost about the same, is 14 cm long, weights 79 grams and never runs out of pressure....       I use earlier model for 5 years already and it will work for 20+ years more ...      I also recommend SLIME  - I use it on every wheel.

https://allegro.pl/oferta/pompka-lezyne-pocket-drive-abs-flex-160psi-11-bar-11027629860?offerId=11027629860&inventoryUnitId=oKbigffEddAcHiAj18h9TQ&adGroupId=MGMzNjFlZWUtNDdjZi00Y2U4LTk5NzctY2M2Y2E4NWMzNWZlAA&campaignId=Njk4YzM5NzQtZjNlYy00NDliLWE4Y2MtMjE5NDRiMGI3N2VjAA&sig=8964cfd5c348d480834ce1ec477175fc&utm_feed=aa34192d-eee2-4419-9a9a-de66b9dfae24&utm_content=supercena&utm_source=google&utm_medium=ads&gclid=CjwKCAjwndCKBhAkEiwAgSDKQWBppNlaQjdHTJaynLxJ207b-9kowL3gYymxCI6K-WSwPr5KJrBrOxoCkbIQAvD_BwE

[enaon]

3 hours ago, Lukasz said:

We get off-topic here again.

I think we are ontopic.

 

We are supposed to discuss anything but the s20 for now, give them sometime to actually make it 

[mhpr262]

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I wish you had heard of Slime, Goop, and other sealants we use in EUCs exactly so that the scenario you experienced wouldn’t happen! 

I did order Slime from amazon right after the first flat on a gravel road, but then I kept riding because I estimated the probability of another flat before I could fill my tire with Slime to be almost nil ... I promptly got the next flat tire one day before the stuff arrived.

[Richardo]

How plausible is this for a safety feature:

an anklet with a battery, capacitor, and electrodes.

In grade school we used to zap each other with the flash capacitors from disposable cameras. A hell of a pinch- you would get impossible-to-ignore feedback from one half that size no matter how distracting your environment. And because its on the surface of your skin, with points of contact close together, there is only pain- no muscle twitch. 
 

aside from the fact that this could be rigged to run from the existing beep-speaker wiring (overcoming bluetooth’s subpar reliability), it would also train our reflexive animal brains to anticipate and avoid overpower situations!

 

(i don’t know how serious i am, here)

[mike_bike_kite]

59 minutes ago, Richardo said:

How plausible is this for a safety feature:

an anklet with a battery, capacitor, and electrodes.

honestly? 

[EUCandME]

8 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

honestly? 

 

1 hour ago, Richardo said:

How plausible is this for a safety feature:

an anklet with a battery, capacitor, and electrodes.

In grade school we used to zap each other with the flash capacitors from disposable cameras. A hell of a pinch- you would get impossible-to-ignore feedback from one half that size no matter how distracting your environment. And because its on the surface of your skin, with points of contact close together, there is only pain- no muscle twitch. 
 

aside from the fact that this could be rigged to run from the existing beep-speaker wiring (overcoming bluetooth’s subpar reliability), it would also train our reflexive animal brains to anticipate and avoid overpower situations!

 

(i don’t know how serious i am, here)

We would look like convicts on parole ahahaah 

[Paradox]

Jack posted a new video.

 

[BecauseFun]

Finally. One Saturday late but at least it's there. I still think they are a ways off with this prototype though. Still no "live" riding being shown.

Great, you have a working kickstand. That's wonderful. Now how about hopping on the wheel next time and taking it through some serious paces? That's what we really want to see.

[div]

1 hour ago, BecauseFun said:

Finally. One Saturday late but at least it's there. I still think they are a ways off with this prototype though. Still no "live" riding being shown.

Great, you have a working kickstand. That's wonderful. Now how about hopping on the wheel next time and taking it through some serious paces? That's what we really want to see.

It’s easier to be snarky than to develop products.

[mrelwood]

If one would watch the video with a suspicious mindset, one could be doubtful about what Jack said about them having had the prototype for a good while already, and that they just wanted to make sure that the suspension works as it should… That they have again had their hands full in trying to make the suspension travel to work smoothly.

 The video didn’t actually feed my cravings for more actual S20 stuff, and as such the cravings are slowly decreasing.

Edited October 2, 2021 by mrelwood

[BecauseFun]

41 minutes ago, div said:

It’s easier to be snarky than to develop products.

If this video had showed up last Saturday as originally planned, I might have been kinder. As it stands it's a week late and instead of anyting near a comprehensive video review, what we get is a wheel sitting on a table and a live demonstration of it's power button and kickstand. That's fine if you want to interpret my post as "snarky," but I think 'underwhelmed' best fits my mindset with the s20 at the moment.

I think it's a design that holds great promise, but the more I see of the actual progress with the prototype, the more I want to cancel my deposit on receiving a first gen offering. I'm really excited at the prospect of riding around this wheel when most of the bugs are worked out, which based on how little progress they're actually showing thus far, looks like it could easily be a fair number of months from now.

Edited October 2, 2021 by BecauseFun
Increased clarity

[Lukasz]

Looking forward to see how the new suspension sliders look like... I will reach 5000km on S18XL next week - and those black pipes are not black any more at all... especially left rear is kind of "shaved" 

[Codespanker]

The more this plays out it seems like the wheel is far from ready and the timing is rushed to try to sway people from the begode hero. 

Ask yourself if you may have been far more likely to put a deposit on the begode if they hadn’t dropped the rendering of the s20 a week after we saw kuji riding a production hero.

Based on what we saw today I can’t see the production wheel being with customers before February 2022 (if you factor supply chain and shipping)

[Not Sure]

2 hours ago, BecauseFun said:

If this video had showed up last Saturday as originally planned, I might have been kinder.

Maybe you missed it but they did release a video last weekend with riding and going down a small staircase

 

[Tawpie]

51 minutes ago, Codespanker said:

Ask yourself if you may have been far more likely to put a deposit on the begode

My easy answer is: no. Begode's baggage, the brutal ugliness of the Hero (my opinion!), and the price-at-announcement are all at play. I have a preorder in for the S20, and am hoping they delay as much as they need to get it right(er). But if it goes too long, there's a chance the S16 might steal my heart. I really just wanted an S18XL

Edited October 2, 2021 by Tawpie

[Grimm10]

I pre-ordered my S20 yesterday after cancelling my order for a V12.  All the extras the S20 is offering, the suspension, larger wheel, spiked pedals, longer range, bigger motor, etc. helped make my decision.

While reading up on the basic specs of the King Song, I came across an interesting bit of info... The rider age range is 18-50 years old.  I'm 53 years old!  Guess I have to cancel my order! 😆

[RockyTop]

1 hour ago, Grimm10 said:

I'm 53 years old!  Guess I have to cancel my order! 😆

I think that they would go out of business if we followed that suggestion

[.....]

1 hour ago, Grimm10 said:

I pre-ordered my S20 yesterday after cancelling my order for a V12.  All the extras the S20 is offering, the suspension, larger wheel, spiked pedals, longer range, bigger motor, etc. helped make my decision.

While reading up on the basic specs of the King Song, I came across an interesting bit of info... The rider age range is 18-50 years old.  I'm 53 years old!  Guess I have to cancel my order! 😆

So basically, adults with money but before arthritis? Thats a wide damn range of averages. I bet the same can be said of a LOT of expensive toys that require physical effort. The most effort is the mental effort when preordering something. I hope the s20 turns out to be a damn fine wheel. I cant see me needing another anytime soon, but when has that stopped me?

I do hope you dont have to power the wheel off to use the kickstand. Honestly, I think the pad design looks great but I kind of prefer an easy spot for custom pads if so desired. KISS method ftw!  I wonder if those lower pads can be removed in total? Foot locks bother my feet and pads that are built in, may pose problems for matching everyone. Remember the pads that Kuji inspred on the s18? I think theres so much 'new' going on with this one, its a HUGE leap of faith to preorder. Damn I wish there was a place to test ride these things, within 100 miles...

Edited October 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[fbhb]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I think the pad design looks great but I kind of prefer an easy spot for custom pads if so desired. KISS method ftw!  I wonder if those lower pads can be removed in total? Foot locks bother my feet and pads that are built in, may pose problems for matching everyone.

@ShanesPlanet according to the S20 website's FAQ's page, the pads are supplied loose with the wheel for you to either fit to your desired position yourself or not at all if you prefer another option/combo!

 

Edited October 3, 2021 by fbhb

[spitfire1337]

5 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

So basically, adults with money but before arthritis? Thats a wide damn range of averages. I bet the same can be said of a LOT of expensive toys that require physical effort. The most effort is the mental effort when preordering something. I hope the s20 turns out to be a damn fine wheel. I cant see me needing another anytime soon, but when has that stopped me?

I do hope you dont have to power the wheel off to use the kickstand. Honestly, I think the pad design looks great but I kind of prefer an easy spot for custom pads if so desired. KISS method ftw!  I wonder if those lower pads can be removed in total? Foot locks bother my feet and pads that are built in, may pose problems for matching everyone. Remember the pads that Kuji inspred on the s18? I think theres so much 'new' going on with this one, its a HUGE leap of faith to preorder. Damn I wish there was a place to test ride these things, within 100 miles...

In the live stream with evx @Jack King Songstated the pads could be removed completely and custom pads used in its place as it's a flat panel behind the stock pads.