Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[eucVibes]

all of the riding footage edited together 🤙

 

[enaon]

4 minutes ago, eucVibes said:

all of the riding footage edited together 🤙

nice, but for sure the s20 deserved a better "hello world" real life usage video, a person that looks like driving an ninebot e+ is not good enough.

But I guess we all know why, it is not ready yet. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon

[jrhz06]

Looks pretty good for a prototype, or early pre-production. I’m sure that not all parts are available yet or not up to spec yet. Lots of time for production ready parts to arrive and be tested. For now doing proof of concept and testing various parts that already look production ready is a great start. 

[enaon]

7 minutes ago, jrhz06 said:

Looks pretty good for a prototype, or early pre-production. I’m sure that not all parts are available yet or not up to spec yet. Lots of time for production ready parts to arrive and be tested. For now doing proof of concept and testing various parts that already look production ready is a great start. 

I agree it looks good, but a true prototype demo is not molds and parts, it is the drive characteristics of them put together, and that is yet to be demonstrated in a proper way I think, Kuji Rolls way. 

 

we need confirmation that "bending" issues of the s18 are solved, gone for ever, to start dreaming of a suspension wheel that will be fun at hi speed and cornering etc. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon

[spitfire1337]

4 hours ago, Unventor said:

And you will see it doesn't match the rendered pictures discuss. 

There's very minor differences between the renders and the fully functional prototype it's to be expected, most notable is the rim which looks like an S18 rim and the addition of a lift handle behind the seat. No need to look to deeply into this, everyone asked for proof of a functional wheel and they've delivered. We're still months away from full production, I'm sure we'll continue to see slight changes until then as well.

[Patrick Robert]

Really like that they thought about a "faulty hall sensor mode". 

Had an "E HALL" error on my Sherman which resulted in random cutouts, before the motor was changed. 

Wonder how many cutouts are due to this, on wheels without a display that can show an error code 😉

Anyways, it's a really great touch. Seems like they're putting a lot of thought even in the software! 

[fbhb]

3 hours ago, spitfire1337 said:

the addition of a lift handle behind the seat

The lift handle behind the seat, was Always there in the renders if you look more closely as it is just angled back towards the seat due to being on a pivoting mount, it is not a recent Add On!

Regarding everyone getting All bent out of shape (No pun intended) about the rim not matching the renders, this is Almost Always the case with computer generated renders - the S18 renders were exactly the same with respect to the rim shown in renders and the rim it now ships with!

All the brands follow this trend with their renders, which Only really serve to give as close as possible an idea of how the finished product will look, but it's Always going to be "Subject To Change"

Veteran's Abrams renders show a motor that goes All the way right out to the rim, whereas the real wheel shown more recently has spokes - because guess what it's "Subject To Change" - nothing at all New here or suspicious or devious!

 

There is a helluva lot of promising innovation and safety measures (if King Song can pull it All off) being built into the S20, so more emphasis should be put into discussing those features, rather than dwelling on computer imagery IMHO! 

Surely we All want our wheels to be as safe as a one wheeled self balancing PEV can be? That is where King Song is heading with what is being implemented here, both with the 126v for more headroom and the sensor less hall sensor for redundancy!

Edited September 28, 2021 by fbhb

[wwwooooqq]

58 minutes ago, fbhb said:

The lift handle behind the seat, was Always there in the renders if you look more closely as it is just angled back towards the seat due to being on a pivoting mount, it is not a recent Add On!

Regarding everyone getting All bent out of shape (No pun intended) about the rim not matching the renders, this is Almost Always the case with computer generated renders - the S18 renders were exactly the same with respect to the rim shown in renders and the rim it now ships with!

All the brands follow this trend with their renders, which Only really serve to give as close as possible an idea of how the finished product will look, but it's Always going to be "Subject To Change"

Veteran's Abrams renders show a motor that goes All the way right out to the rim, whereas the real wheel shown more recently has spokes - because guess what it's "Subject To Change" - nothing at all New here or suspicious or devious!

 

There is a helluva lot of promising innovation and safety measures (if King Song can pull it All off) being built into the S20, so more emphasis should be put into discussing those features, rather than dwelling on computer imagery IMHO! 

Surely we All want our wheels to be as safe as a one wheeled self balancing PEV can be? That is where King Song is heading with what is being implemented here, both with the 126v for more headroom and the sensor less hall sensor for redundancy!

Thank you so much for paying attention to these details and telling you a good news. Everything in the rendering will become reality.

[mhpr262]

9 hours ago, enaon said:

the wheel/motor does not, it looks like an s18 motor.

It could well be that. An S18 motor that is forcefed with 126V instead of 84V would give just the peformance numbers that KS listed.

[supercurio]

1 hour ago, mhpr262 said:

It could well be that. An S18 motor that is forcefed with 126V instead of 84V would give just the peformance numbers that KS listed.

Maybe it is in this prototype indeed, if it is not based on a hollow bore motor.

However @Jack King Song said the rim would be wider on the S20 to accommodate wider tires, and the spec and promotional material indicate a custom hollow bore motor, both of which are a significant departure from the S18 motor.

Now convinced by @fbhb's demonstration, I'm also guessing that the designers make up something they'd like in CAD and then the motor & rim suppliers make something else they can manufacture easier, at a reasonable cost and matches the general requirements.
And then that's what becomes the actual final product.

How would you rate the S18 rim? I remember watching a video describing how prone to cracking it is based on multiple occurrences.
Is that a general consensus?

Edited September 28, 2021 by supercurio

[fbhb]

16 hours ago, supercurio said:

Now convinced by @fbhb's demonstration, I'm also guessing that the designers make up something they'd like in CAD and then the motor & rim suppliers make something else they can manufacture easier, at a reasonable cost and matches the general requirements.
And then that's what becomes the actual final product.

The motor on the S20 shown in the recent 'Reveal' video is clearly the Newly designed Hollow Bore motor that @Jack King Song stated has a wider rim and accommodates wider tires (he also confirmed that they had been easily able to fit up to 21.5" diameter tires during testing).

This image below, to my eye, also confirms that the rim is indeed wider as promised.

The Only thing that is reminiscent of the S18 are the spokes (the S18 motor sides are flat and smooth), but if you look at the actual motor itself on the S20 it does look similar to the renders with the raised Black and Silver detail!

 

16 hours ago, supercurio said:

How would you rate the S18 rim? I remember watching a video describing how prone to cracking it is based on multiple occurrences.
Is that a general consensus?

I personally have not had any issue with my S18 rim, but as you know @supercurio, I have had the CST 6004 fitted from day one which I feel sure has added a good amount of protection to the rim, nor do I abuse my wheels.

The original H5102 the S18 shipped with has a very light weight, pliable construction in comparison so that could be a major factor in some (but not widespread IMO) mention of S18 rim cracking, but it also obviously depends on how much abuse the rim is subjected to by those claiming it's prone to cracking!

Edited September 29, 2021 by fbhb

[sway2127]

1 hour ago, fbhb said:

 

 

Thanks @fbhb that's the clearest non-render shot I've seen of the S20.  I'm sure it will be an awesome wheel once they get through the (hopefully extensive) prototype / testing phase, but man... those purple accents are terrible in my opinion.  It's just one too many colors, and makes the wheel look like a bit of a mess. 

Hopefully they get changed before it goes to production, but I suppose they'll be easy enough to paint afterward if not.

[OldFartRides]

IMHO, that wheel is way too fly looking to take out on the trails.

I’d druther have a plain Jane indestructible trail wheel.

But that’s just me. You’ll have fun with that. I’ll watch the vids.

[Unventor]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

How would you rate the S18 rim? I remember watching a video describing how prone to cracking it is based on multiple occurrences.
Is that a general consensus?

I don't think KS rims are worse or better than other EUC brands around. As for the S18 I have no access to it but I suspect it is that for that too. As for S20 the "silver" part looks very similar to design shape of previous KS wheels with same design like KS18L or XL. 

Now the reason I think we have seen more rim discussion lately are several. But one thing that do stick out is how it just magical ☺️ broke. Or I suspect we are never hearing the full story. 

So think to do to avoid rim problems are:

* Ride with enough pressure in the tube. And check it ever so often. 

* You might have suspension but that doesn't mean you can take any obstacles at any speed you want to. Some just don't seem to that what they want and what is possible are 2 very different things. 

* If you do jumps on the wheel, you are likely to need more pressure in the tube. It isn't a scateboard and most of those don't have wheels with air. Think that the skateboard can flex. On an EUC it works differently. Even with suspension.

* The sharper edge you hit the more point stress you have on the tire and the rim.

Lastly don't ride with your head under your arm. Apply common sense and chances are you do not get into trouble.

We have had similar discussion with people taking the V11 a bit too far. The more people tap into the suspension the more they seem to forget the forces they put their equipment under. 

[enaon]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

How would you rate the S18 rim?

it is on the soft side, suspension saves it, but not always

[wwwooooqq]

New rim

[supercurio]

12 minutes ago, wwwooooqq said:

New rim

Not quite sure it will happen, but this rim certainly looks nice.

By the way:

Quote

"Compared to traditional motors it offers significant improvements such as power output, cruising range, energy efficiency ratio" when referring to the hollow bore motor characteristic of the motor.

I don't understand such claims for a motor depending on how some of its non-moving internal parts are different.
Isn't that complete BS?

As long as the motor has:

• coils (not moving)
• magnets (moving with the rim)
• and some kind of bearings in between

 

I don't see how changing the core and how the pedal are attached would change anything.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, am I missing something or it's just baseless marketing speak?

Edited September 28, 2021 by supercurio

[Tawpie]

21 minutes ago, supercurio said:

I don't see how changing the core and how the pedal are attached would change anything

There are real advantages to hollow bore motors and that's why we're seeing most manufacturers switch to them as the wheel diameters get larger. They allow you to move the "working parts" of the motor (coils and magnets) closer to the edge of the rim, which improves thrust. They let you use thicker wires to feed the coils so you can deliver more power. You have more room to add additional coils and magnets, giving you access to more power. If you can get over the bearings' additional unit cost and solve the weatherproofing problem, hollow bore on large diameter wheels should be a definite improvement. The pedal hanging system must change as a consequence but it's not obvious how pedal hangers would change speed or thrust so that might be hyperbole.

Edited September 28, 2021 by Tawpie

[wwwooooqq]

15 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

There are real advantages to hollow bore motors and that's why we're seeing most manufacturers switch to them as the wheel diameters get larger. They allow you to move the "working parts" of the motor (coils and magnets) closer to the edge of the rim, which improves thrust. They let you use thicker wires to feed the coils so you can deliver more power. You have more room to add additional coils and magnets, giving you access to more power. If you can get over the bearings' additional unit cost and solve the weatherproofing problem, hollow bore on large diameter wheels should be a definite improvement. The pedal hanging system must change as a consequence but it's not obvious how pedal hangers would change speed or thrust so that might be hyperbole.

I think it is difficult for the motor to have substantial changes, but it can be designed to be more suitable for EUC, so that it has higher limits, such as heat dissipation and strength, and cool design

[wwwooooqq]

44 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Not quite sure it will happen, but this rim certainly looks nice.

By the way:

I don't understand such claims for a motor depending on how some of its non-moving internal parts are different.
Isn't that complete BS?

As long as the motor has:

• coils (not moving)
• magnets (moving with the rim)
• and some kind of bearings in between

 

I don't see how changing the core and how the pedal are attached would change anything.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, am I missing something or it's just baseless marketing speak?

I think all the improvements are relative. We cannot compare an innovative brushed motor with a brushless motor and say that this innovation is meaningless. Then all the points mentioned need to be compared with the old and competing products.

[Unventor]

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

The pedal hanging system must change as a consequence but it's not obvious how pedal hangers would change speed or thrust so that might be hyperbole.

In old days 😂 the pedal was mounted on pedal hangers that was fitted to the axel and on the pedals hangers you mounted the shell too.

You don't need that if you suspend the motor and attach the shell or frame to the motor with a suspension system in between. This way you can mount pedals right on the shell or frame. So less moving parts I think depends on the eyes of the beholder. And compare to. But is also something marketing can have cooked up. It is hard to tell at this stage.

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, supercurio said:

> power output, cruising range, energy efficiency ratio

I don't see how changing the core and how the pedal are attached would change anything.

Agreed.
The hub and bearing are not electrically or magnetically relevant to the motor's characteristics.
 

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

They allow you to move the "working parts" of the motor (coils and magnets) closer to the edge of the rim, which improves thrust.

No...
This didn't change with hollowcore: the motor diameter is already very large, and manufacturers can choose the diameter regardless of the hub type.

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

You have more room to add additional coils and magnets, giving you access to more power.

No...
This didn't change with hollowcore: the space available is constrained by the tire (diameter) and the EUC body (width); not the hub.

 

2 hours ago, Tawpie said:

They let you use thicker wires to feed the coils so you can deliver more power.

Yes!
We are no longer constrained by the need to pass the cables through a tiny drilled passage in a stub axle.

But you missed the biggest benefit of hollowcore: durability!
Stub-axles often have their axle nuts work loose, which are a big hassle to re-tighten with special tools (ask the Sherman and MonsterV2 riders).
Stub-axles also break when slammed hard. (No big jumps!)
Hollowcore designs address both of these problems.

(As someone who's had nuts come loose and axles break, I fully support the move to hollowcore. Let's hope they choose an affordable bearing size, and get the bearing fit right.)

[mike_bike_kite]

6 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

But you missed the biggest benefit of hollowcore: durability!
Stub-axles often have their axle nuts work loose, which are a big hassle to re-tighten with special tools (ask the Sherman and MonsterV2 riders).
Stub-axles also break when slammed hard. (No big jumps!)
Hollowcore designs address both of these problems.

We've spent the last year listening to reports of hollow core bearings failing. I'm a bit surprised you say that durability is their main strength! I know there were big problems with how Gotway previously mounted their axles on their larger wheels but I don't recall any issues with the modern Kingsong design and I think you just needed an allen key to adjust them (if necessary).

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

There are real advantages to hollow bore motors ... They let you use thicker wires to feed the coils so you can deliver more power.

Did any manufacturer actually use thicker wires? I seem to remember on all the breakdown videos that all the wiring looked the same. I'm not good with electronics but doesn't the higher voltage allow you to use thinner wires for the same power?

3 hours ago, wwwooooqq said:

I think all the improvements are relative.

Has Kingsong solved the problems that other manufacturers have found with water getting into the bearings? Will replacement bearings be expensive?

[AtlasP]

Why is the choice between either traditional motors with tiny axles or else hollow-bore motors with massive-diameter bearings such that the bearing is *so* much closer to the outside diameter of the wheel and the water/dust/mud/etc there--why not a traditional motor that just had an axle/hollow-bore but only like twice the diameter of the traditional axles? Wouldn't that give plenty more room for heavier guage wires, without the problems that have plagued hollow-bore motor designs up until now?

[Lukasz]

3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

We've spent the last year listening to reports of hollow core bearings failing. I'm a bit surprised you say that durability is their main strength! I know there were big problems with how Gotway previously mounted their axles on their larger wheels but I don't recall any issues with the modern Kingsong design and I think you just needed an allen key to adjust them (if necessary).

Did any manufacturer actually use thicker wires? I seem to remember on all the breakdown videos that all the wiring looked the same. I'm not good with electronics but doesn't the higher voltage allow you to use thinner wires for the same power?

Has Kingsong solved the problems that other manufacturers have found with water getting into the bearings? Will replacement bearings be expensive?

AFAIK  Kingsong designed some kind of gasket or o-ring to ensure water tightness of the motor bearings. This is important step as even non-hollow wheel bearings have tendency to rust after some time due to water ingress into the bearings.  New rim looks really good! I hope it will be made from stronger aluminum, as original S18 rim is rather soft - while I generally ride with caution and without getting into hard off-road - I see some dents on the rim