Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[.....]

19 minutes ago, supercurio said:

Experience shows that the KS-S18 alarms are also close (too close for aggressive or heavy riders) to the wheel being over-powered or over-leaned, so it has been the case since the 16X and onwards.

Hopefully the S20 will be programmed with alarms at a more ample safety margin but regardless;

I have no doubt that high frequency real-time safety margin data available to peripherals instead of only the wheel itself would bring a new era of safety to EUCs.
Not only as an alternative to beeps, but also to allow riders to define by themselves at which % of safety margin they want to be notified.

I still think a simple vibration near the pedal hangers would be a good solution for alarms we cant hear. Even with bumpy roads, I'd be almost certain we would notice a vibration of frequency at our ankles, transmitting to the hangers and pedals.

BEFORE KS got lured into raising speeds to compete, they were one of the obvious chioces for designed safety in overhead. Those days went bye bye around the 16x release. I guess they continued this with the s18? Specs sell wheels more than safety, or at least for a short period in time they have. I pretty much set my own limits for safety as you simply can't trust there to be as much available as claimed. The less headroom I am given from manufacture, the more headroom I have to set within 3rd party solutions. If I wanted a wheel with max specs and minimum safety intrusions, I'd be a gotway fanboi.

Edited September 26, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[supercurio]

1 minute ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I still think a simple vibration near the pedal hangers would be a good solution for alarms we cant hear. Even with bumpby roads, I'd be almost certain we would notice a vibration of frequency at our ankles, transmitting to the hangers and pedals.

If this data becomes available, your idea would become a whole lot easier to prototype and try.

I imagine that a vibrating band of some kind, which you could strap anywhere you want would become commonplace. With Bluetooth Low Energy communication and vibrating only when necessary, battery would last a long while.

[Heyzeus]

13 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Just received these photos of the Wheel in the flesh, it does not disappoint from the renders.  

Great video with the interview segments with Sen Zhang, Carey, & Leo Lu, it shows how far this Company has evolved from the first days of making the 14B in the 'back of a garage' type operation.  

check

your move inmotion

[.....]

3 minutes ago, supercurio said:

If this data becomes available, your idea would become a whole lot easier to prototype and try.

I imagine that a vibrating band of some kind, which you could strap anywhere you want would become commonplace. With Bluetooth Low Energy communication and vibrating only when necessary, battery would last a long while.

Very true, but damn, why not hard wire and include it? I shouldnt have to rely on sketchy BT and radio transmission, nor a standalone battery to worry about. They can afford to put this in every cell phone piece of garbage. I implore them to do something similar from factory on an euc. They already have menu options in most euc's to control a beeper we cant hear. I dont think vibration implementation is asking much extra.. I dont mind adding mounts and pads and other bs, but Im long over the time I like to open a wheel and think about how to improve something. I've enough kits and DIY projects going already.

[supercurio]

13 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Very true, but damn, why not hard wire and include it? I shouldnt have to rely on sketchy BT and radio transmission, nor a standalone battery to worry about. They can afford to put this in every cell phone piece of garbage. I implore them to do something similar from factory on an euc. They already have menu options in most euc's to control a beeper we cant hear. I dont think vibration implementation is asking much extra.. I dont mind adding mounts and pads and other bs, but Im long over the time I like to open a wheel and think about how to improve something. I've enough kits and DIY projects going already.

I think that wireless will help innovation, with various inventors and testers trying out different solutions.

I expect some will be on the wheel, some will be worn, carried in a backpack? Who knows 
Once one or two solutions prove being the best or most popular, EUC manufacturers at large will have an easier time to move forward beyond auditory alerts or tilt-back, originally designed for vehicles of very different speed and capabilities.

Edited September 26, 2021 by supercurio

[miketunes]

What's the difference between spring and suspension travel?  I have a V11 now, which has 84mm of travel - should I be comparing that to the spring or suspension numbers? I'd like more bounce, I'm assuming a larger travel will give me that.  

[fbhb]

5 minutes ago, miketunes said:

What's the difference between spring and suspension travel?

Due to King Song using a linkage system for their suspension designs, the 'principal of levers' allows the travel of the actual spring used to be greatly amplified resulting in an increased overall suspension travel, relative to the travel of the shock itself.

The V11 travel is straight up and down, with No levers involved so the travel remains the same for spring and overall suspension travel!

Hope that helps explain it better.

[.....]

1 hour ago, supercurio said:

I think that wireless will help innovation, with various inventors and testers trying out different solutions.

I expect some will be on the wheel, some will be worn, carried in a backpack? Who knows 
Once one or two solutions prove being the best or most popular, EUC manufacturers at large will have an easier time to move forward beyond auditory alerts or tilt-back, originally designed for vehicles of very different speed and capabilities.

How about both. I contend that 'wireless' and 'safety' don't go hand in hand too well. If one wanted to carry a device, we already have vibrating phones that manage eucw and DB.  Screw having to carry things. Safety implementation needs be a part of design philosophy and built in. There's already circuits to handle a beeper. KS already implemented a way to control tiltback speed. I agree that bluetooth data is useful, but you sure can't beat features that are baked in to a wheel. What if I wanna ride naked all a sudden, but I get chaffing at speeds above 35mph? Having built in settings, alarms and the like, keeps me buttry smooth

Edited September 27, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[enaon]

2 hours ago, supercurio said:

I think that wireless will help innovation, with various inventors and testers trying out different solutions.

I expect some will be on the wheel, some will be worn, carried in a backpack? Who knows 
Once one or two solutions prove being the best or most popular, EUC manufacturers at large will have an easier time to move forward beyond auditory alerts or tilt-back, originally designed for vehicles of very different speed and capabilities.

this is already  available if you want to try.
the watch accepts peripherals in bridge mode, an in-helmet band is also available, I will demonstrate it soon

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/18415-standalone-bandwatch/

 

I agree that allowing for multiple BT connections would ease things a lot, but the implementation has to get a level up, as it stands all is unencrypted and security holes exist. 

but yes, a lot of useful things can be added using BLE and microcontrollers, helmet tail lights for example that read the amperage and auto turn on when needed, different patterns depending on speed and so on. 

but the truth is that all this can be done right now using euc World as a hub. Hopefully Seba will make a bridge mode for the watch to connect to euc.World, and if we design the protocol right, any peripheral could do the same. 

 

I also wish they start working on locking a bit, nibebot was fine (apart from a security hole that allows bypassing the password and unlocking), but the rest are awful or non existent. Kingsong's solution results in a wheel sounding like a time bomb, one cannot really use the locking feature. It is also unsecure, since the access token does not expire upon disconnection, so the wheel remains password free even if a password is set. 

this demonstrates another usefull idea for when they fix their locking systems, this band was programmed to lock/unlock the ninebot based on proximity readings from the radio

 

 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon

[Tawpie]

I wear a pebble velcroed to the sleeve of my jacket and EUC World vibrates it like a small animal when I hit the alarm point... there is a noticeable delay though, the beeps are way ahead of the BT arm critter.

I'm with @ShanesPlanet and others on this... radio links aren't reliable enough for safety and today's speeds + visored helmets mean audio is now relegated to the "necessary but insufficient" category. My 16X has always had a slight grumble at exactly 10mph that I can feel/sense, so I do believe that some sort of tactile warning would work. I entertained doing something stupid like grabbing the beeper signal, running it through a power amp, and driving a thumper against the side of the shell, but, my tiltback is set 3 mph below max speed so I don't worry about it. I guess one could say that a tactile overspeed warning mechanism is already provided and all we need to do is engage it appropriately.

[enaon]

30 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

... there is a noticeable delay though, the beeps are way ahead of the BT arm critter.

 

this is a known issue with eucworld, one I hope will be solved in the future. 

the eucWatch is a different animal, alarms comes instanty, on gotways the watch alarm comes before the physical buzzer sound, since the firmware raises the bt register before it raises the buzzer output. 

in short, I do not agree, and I think one should try the watch in he want to see how fast the alarms are, BLE is very nice for security. Yet I agree that it can not be the one we solely rely upon, as there are times/places where interference is so strong, that all bt connections ae lost for some time. 

on kingsong the alarms work like a dream, the user is notified before dynamic tiltback and can avoid it, even if driving agreesivelly. 

this is an old gotway buzzer demo
 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon

[Tawpie]

12 minutes ago, enaon said:

I think one should try the watch in he want to see how fast the alarms are

You're going to make me buy a p22 if you keep up the kind of excellent work you've done! But alas, I use EUCW for the wheel log functionality and am HOPING the S20 display will supplant the need for the Pebble (I only use if for speed, old eyes can't read much else by glancing at it). If I can do without another thing to charge (tactile alarm on the wheel), I'm all for it. As it is, I have to charge my coat (Pebble), my pants (two lights), my hat (two more lights), my wristguard (flashlight), an Android (wheel log and speedometer-to-the-Pebble), and a wheel (can't forget that!). And my phone. And earbuds. The Flic button isn't rechargeable.

[enaon]

24 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

I use EUCW for the wheel log functionality

it is supported on the watch, it send that to the euc World by emulating a Z10 

but in any case, the watch is a hobby and a proof of concept that went loose, it became a tool, it was meant to be a toy. My point is that we want BLE accessories, and faster BLE connection handling on android solutions. 

 

ps, The watch will last for several days of riding on one charge

 

one more thing I like about the watch, and I would love to see get better, is the haptic feedback. The watch supports resolution on the haptic pulses it sends, so it is not just useful for letting one know that the upper limit has arrived. It is useful to get readings under normal conditions without getting distracted. If one sets the alarm of the amperes to 15 for example and starts climbing up hill, he will get informed as amperage goes over the limit, and on how over the limit it is. The same for down hills. This is not usefully after some time, experience covers it, but it very nice I think for when one learns a new wheel. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon

[Lukasz]

6 hours ago, enaon said:

on kingsong the alarms work like a dream, the user is notified before dynamic tiltback and can avoid it, even if driving agreesivelly. 

Sorry for off- topic but @enaon  what type of the watch it is on the video and how it compares to Pebble in practical use terms? (battery life, screen visibility in the sunlight, lack of touchscreen, water tightness, purchase price etc)   For now I have made my personal collection of Pebble time (like 5 pcs or more) so I am safe for a few years but it does not hurt to see other options.   

[supercurio]

8 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

How about both. I contend that 'wireless' and 'safety' don't go hand in hand too well. If one wanted to carry a device, we already have vibrating phones that manage eucw and DB.  Screw having to carry things. Safety implementation needs be a part of design philosophy and built in. There's already circuits to handle a beeper. KS already implemented a way to control tiltback speed. I agree that bluetooth data is useful, but you sure can't beat features that are baked in to a wheel. What if I wanna ride naked all a sudden, but I get chaffing at speeds above 35mph? Having built in settings, alarms and the like, keeps me buttry smooth

As a safety mechanism, you can implement alerting both for:

• Wireless transmission interrupted. 
• Low battery condition

High frequency data would help even further detecting connection abnormalities.

I'm all for wired when applicable also, but over which type of physical bus would you suggest sending real-time wheel data like safety margin?
Bluetooth Low Energy makes it very simple to implement both on the sender and receiver side.
Technically it could be a service advertising a characteristic with "notification" capability, with an 8-bit integer value, from 0 to 255, and a sending frequency between 100Hz and 1kHz, as well as a second boolean "beep" characteristic notification. Super easy, based on well known standards, compatible.

An experienced maker could build a prototype application or physical device (like based on Nordic Semiconductors NRF series chipsets) in a matter of hours.

However if it's wired, here are problems to solve:

• which connector
• which data packet & wire protocol
• needs waterproofing
• what about robustness in crashes and durability over time (things being bent & pulled)
• cable management?
• should provide power and data? Otherwise the accessory would need its battery anyway. What voltage, which current limit. What if you want a 5W speaker, or 20W alert light and it's too much for the port?
• if the accessory is worn, now the rider is tethered to the wheel. Imagine if the rider crashes or forget being tethered with a helmet accessory.

IMO, there's no doubt wireless is the way here as wired introduces a lot of new problems including creating new safety issues.

Edited September 27, 2021 by supercurio

[supercurio]

8 hours ago, enaon said:

this is already  available if you want to try.
the watch accepts peripherals in bridge mode, an in-helmet band is also available, I will demonstrate it soon

Yes! I was inspired by your awesome watch @enaon in my proposal to @Jack King Song, as well as as the EUC Speed Guardian.

How your watch would be improved:

• high frequency data and "beeper" characteristic: making alerts as real-time and immediate as the beeper itself, instead of delayed and/or missed if it happened between sample as it is today.
• multiple connection letting both connect at the same time or independently.
• compared to a BLE relay mode (brilliant idea BTW): either device can crash / reboot/  encounter a bug without affecting the other: an important design characteristic for safety.
  Adding redundancy instead of adding point of failures if you wish.

How the EUC Speed Guardian would be improved:

• No need to open and physically modify the wheel to install an emitter.
• That previous requirement alone will forever prevent something like the EUC Speed Guardian to become a popular safety accessories, despite its excellent feature set.

 

So hopefully Kingsong can be at the forefront here and make a couple of low complexity changes to their wireless stack with a big impact on safety for the S20!

Edited September 27, 2021 by supercurio

[Unventor]

15 hours ago, supercurio said:

It looks like Kingsong tried to minimise weight and maximize strength for torque transfer with their core design: we'll see how it turns out!

But as long it is only a render it is only used to create hype. 

We are still waiting what the REAL thing is like both in design and ride feel. We have seen so many "cool" things in renders but in the end it is the product you can buy that matters.

I am not saying the S20 can't be a great wheel. But I am a little sceptical marketing shared renders until we see a unbiased showoff the wheel. Even biased version are still missing. At least you can take those at a pinch of salt. 

And with 2 prior 1st batch wheels from KS, I am a bit reserved with hype praise. 

[winterwheel]

On 9/20/2021 at 2:50 PM, UniMe said:

I do find it remarkable that @winterwheel can ride safely in those conditions...!

Winterwheel -- do you have metal studs in your tires? I assume at minimum they are knobby, that that doesn't do much on ice. I rode a winter once in the interior of BC on my mountain bike with metal studded tired, only crashed a few times lol.

Some do, thus far I have not. I'd like to try some day but every time a cyclist tells me that he fell off his bike even with studded tires I put that experiment a little  farther into the future.

Riding super hardcore ice is about nerve; as long as you stay focused and remember that all you need to do is stay still on the wheel, most ice can be navigated. Lower pressure on the tires I'm sure is a big part of that success as swell.

[DavidB]

17 hours ago, supercurio said:

Interesting sight in the video, how the "spokes" inside the motor look.

If it is representative of the actual motor, there's good hope in the motor being on the light side 

It looks like generative design. It appears they put a lot more design effort into this one. It will be interesting to see if the function matches the looks.

[supercurio]

2 hours ago, DavidB said:

It looks like generative design. It appears they put a lot more design effort into this one. It will be interesting to see if the function matches the looks.

By the way the spokes & rim in the prototype shown don't look like the CAD on screen, so maybe what's in the motor is nothing alike as well as @Unventor is anticipating.

[enaon]

9 hours ago, Lukasz said:

Sorry for off- topic but @enaon  what type of the watch it is on the video and how it compares to Pebble in practical use terms? (battery life, screen visibility in the sunlight, lack of touchscreen, water tightness, purchase price etc)   For now I have made my personal collection of Pebble time (like 5 pcs or more) so I am safe for a few years but it does not hurt to see other options.   

They are not very similar, the pebble excels as a smartwatch and for the screen visibility under sunlight, and has a stronger buzzer. 

P8/p22/pinetime excels at battery life, screen is on the "good" side, is does not need a phone to work, and in my book usability is unmatched as a daily EUC dash. 

 

price of the nrf is about 15-35 usd, depending on store and model. 

 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon

[spitfire1337]

6 hours ago, Unventor said:

But as long it is only a render it is only used to create hype. 

We are still waiting what the REAL thing is like both in design and ride feel. We have seen so many "cool" things in renders but in the end it is the product you can buy that matters.

I am not saying the S20 can't be a great wheel. But I am a little sceptical marketing shared renders until we see a unbiased showoff the wheel. Even biased version are still missing. At least you can take those at a pinch of salt. 

And with 2 prior 1st batch wheels from KS, I am a bit reserved with hype praise. 

Ummm, kingsong released a real life video and photos yesterday, so it is no longer "just a render" 🤔

https://youtu.be/lEoL3mFi8ek

[Unventor]

16 minutes ago, spitfire1337 said:

Ummm, kingsong released a real life video and photos yesterday, so it is no longer "just a render" 🤔

https://youtu.be/lEoL3mFi8ek

And you will see it doesn't match the rendered pictures discuss. 

[PourUC]

2 hours ago, Unventor said:

And you will see it doesn't match the rendered pictures discuss. 

Can you explain, it matches the renders very well.

[enaon]

2 minutes ago, PourUC said:

Can you explain, it matches the renders very well.

the wheel/motor does not, it looks like an s18 motor.

they will put a wider rim, same diameter as the s18, but wider and with a new design. On the photos they released there are even tire-ups holding the motor in place, but anyway, we will wait. 

Edited September 27, 2021 by enaon