Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Jia Liu]

12 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

2. The second rumour is that Kuji is going to get the S20 Eagle for review this week, this is also not true. I do not intend on using my good friend Kuji as a test dummy. When we are at that stage we will confidently send Kuji an S20 for video collaboration.  We will however be releasing content with actual product (not renders this month)

This is rumor? I think who preordered from ewheels receive this info directly from Jason.

[Rawnei]

1 minute ago, Jia Liu said:

This is rumor? I think who preordered from ewheels receive this info directly from Jason.

You think? You're not sure? So it's a rumor?

[Jia Liu]

3 minutes ago, Rawnei said:

You think? You're not sure? So it's a rumor?

OK, not "I think", I got the same email from Jason as well

[Paradox]

28 minutes ago, Jia Liu said:

This is rumor? I think who preordered from ewheels receive this info directly from Jason.

This is what I recieved from Ewheels. 

eWheel Sales <sales@ewheels.com>	Mon, Sep 6, 5:35 AM (4 days ago)
to sales, bcc: me

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good morning,  

 

We've been in contact with King Song this morning about the progress, intended plans for the S20 release & first shipping times.  

 

- Actual product unveiling: KS is intending to have the first S20 sample sent to Kuji later this week, we can probably expect this video to be released later in the month. 

- Production times: they have provided us with a revised production schedule of completing the first round by the end of November, or early December. Adding on the standard 4 weeks for transit to the US, this likely means an ETA to LA by very late in the year—we'll of course keep Customers posted with the updates. We've ordered a sufficient quantity of the S20 where depositors up until now should be allocated one from this round. 

- Tires: several tires are being evaluated, including two knobby options. It is possible the S20 will be offered a choice of two different types, but these details are still about 6 weeks from being finalized.  

 

Thank you & enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend,

 

Jason   

[evX_Mick]

2 hours ago, Paradox said:

This is what I recieved from Ewheels. 

eWheel Sales <sales@ewheels.com>	Mon, Sep 6, 5:35 AM (4 days ago)
to sales, bcc: me

 

 

 

 

 

 

Good morning,  

 

We've been in contact with King Song this morning about the progress, intended plans for the S20 release & first shipping times.  

 

- Actual product unveiling: KS is intending to have the first S20 sample sent to Kuji later this week, we can probably expect this video to be released later in the month. 

- Production times: they have provided us with a revised production schedule of completing the first round by the end of November, or early December. Adding on the standard 4 weeks for transit to the US, this likely means an ETA to LA by very late in the year—we'll of course keep Customers posted with the updates. We've ordered a sufficient quantity of the S20 where depositors up until now should be allocated one from this round. 

- Tires: several tires are being evaluated, including two knobby options. It is possible the S20 will be offered a choice of two different types, but these details are still about 6 weeks from being finalized.  

 

Thank you & enjoy the rest of your holiday weekend,

 

Jason   

Welcome to the underbelly of the industry, where jason does things to pressure companies to do stuff faster and or better. It's unfortunate it came out like this, but now you've been red pilled lol.

[Sumako]

10 hours ago, ugoaps said:

"Testing" a charger? The wheel is already in pre-sale and weeks to go on the market, and are still testing chargers? The message they are giving to potential buyers is that it is a wheel finished in a hurry, with the quality problems that this usually brings. These things make many of us wonder if we are interested in buyng it.

Dude….CHILL!!!!!!

This is typical of any new tech product that is coming out or has a pre-order months ahead of release. Even collectible toys have these issues; an Optimus Prime figure on pre-order 4 months before release didn’t even have a confirmed rifle design until a month before release.  

[Sumako]

1 hour ago, evX_Mick said:

Welcome to the underbelly of the industry, where jason does things to pressure companies to do stuff faster and or better. It's unfortunate it came out like this, but now you've been red pilled lol.

Thanks @evX_Mickfor the update regarding Jason’s super powers. Love it; “now you’ve been RED PILLED”. Clearly a Matrix reference. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by Sumako

[fbhb]

3 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Welcome to the underbelly of the industry, where jason does things to pressure companies to do stuff faster and or better.

Unfortunately, faster never equals better!

Let King Song take their own time to get this one right I say - Yes, we All want it yesterday but what's the point of pressuring to ultimately get an unfinished/unpolished product!

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. 

Edited September 11, 2021 by fbhb

[evX_Mick]

2 hours ago, fbhb said:

Unfortunately, faster never equals better!

Let King Song take their own time to get this one right I say - Yes, we All want it yesterday but what's the point of pressuring to ultimately get an unfinished/unpolished product!

My 2 cents, for what it's worth. 

Jason pushes them on every wheel release otherwise they'd take like 5 years to get them out with little to no upside for the delay. This is China not USA manufacturing. 

[div]

5 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Jason pushes them on every wheel release otherwise they'd take like 5 years to get them out with little to no upside for the delay. This is China not USA manufacturing. 

Are you saying Chinese manufacturing is slower to reach the market than US manufacturing? Do you really believe Chinese EUC manufacturers rely on Jason’s «pressure » not to be five years (!) late to the market?

It’s popular to complain of Chinese manufacturing, they are blamed for rushing things (see a few pages back), and now on top they are accused of taking « 5 years » if some American isn’t pushing them? Seriously 🙄

Edited September 11, 2021 by div

[Paul A]

The city of Shenzen is a consumer electronics manufacturing capital.

Akin to the Silicon Valley of computing.

[Rawnei]

5 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Jason pushes them on every wheel release otherwise they'd take like 5 years to get them out with little to no upside for the delay. This is China not USA manufacturing. 

Exactly, USA doesn't have any manufacturing.

[Unventor]

8 hours ago, evX_Mick said:

Jason pushes them on every wheel release otherwise they'd take like 5 years to get them out with little to no upside for the delay. This is China not USA manufacturing. 

I would be careful to refer to how manufacturing is done even on popular products.

US made do not mean automatic better. Car industry is a very good example. And yes I am sure many US people will disagree with me. 

In short there are good and bad examples always. Same goes for robotic made Vs hand crafted. 

In general price often win over quality and when it doesn't the price often are so high that it is only for the top 5% richest people in the world. That is when price do not matter at all. 

I do think we should reflect on how har EUCs have advanced in what timeframe. It is so easy to point a blame finger. But looking at how many that can compete with China on manufacturing things, it is odd to me how these comments above still get tossed about. 

[Jason McNeil]

19 hours ago, Jia Liu said:

OK, not "I think", I got the same email from Jason as well

This was the information as conveyed to us at the time. The latest update as of 7:17AM EST, "King song will release a video of real samples on 26th September to show the details" 

With this newest 126V/30s Wheel, KS will definitely need to adopt some special measures on the PCB to prevent close contact arcing, reverse diode charge port protection, & extra water ingress/humid protection for the electronics; trying to get a Wheel like this passed through regulatory certification/control could be problematic too. Recall that about a year ago BG were planning on producing a 30S Wheel, but silently dropped the concept. I do not not know the specifics, if there were some insuperable technical challenges encountered there.

There's also the added complication serializing so many cells together & the resulting increased IR on the pack as a whole.    

  

Edited September 11, 2021 by Jason McNeil

[Jon Stern]

5 hours ago, div said:

Are you saying Chinese manufacturing is slower to reach the market than US manufacturing? Do you really believe Chinese EUC manufacturers rely on Jason’s «pressure » not to be five years (!) late to the market?

It’s popular to complain of Chinese manufacturing, they are blamed for rushing things (see a few pages back), and now on top they are accused of taking « 5 years » if some American isn’t pushing them? Seriously 🙄

Yes, that made no sense. Chinese companies are known for the opposite of taking a long time. Where they may lose time is in things like shipping by sea to save money, instead of air dropping the first batches.

p.s. Jason is British. Not that makes any difference.

[Jason McNeil]

59 minutes ago, Jon Stern said:

Yes, that made no sense. Chinese companies are known for the opposite of taking a long time. Where they may lose time is in things like shipping by sea to save money, instead of air dropping the first batches.

p.s. Jason is British. Not that makes any difference.

Ha, no, the interaction with mfgrs is much more complex & nuanced than that. As in every other part of the world there's varying quality of individuals, motivation & driving force to meet deadlines/production schedules. 

The better manufacturers tend to incorporate feedback & statistical evidence into product development efforts; others think that they have all the answers, are immune to outside influence of their Customers to their later detriment. Much of the credit for whatever part I have played should really go to our Customers for their suggestions.

There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes in this business, where it's a question of trade-offs in a non-perfect world...

Edited September 11, 2021 by Jason McNeil

[Jon Stern]

6 hours ago, Jason McNeil said:

Ha, no, the interaction with mfgrs is much more complex & nuanced than that. As in every other part of the world there's varying quality of individuals, motivation & driving force to meet deadlines/production schedules. 

The better manufacturers tend to incorporate feedback & statistical evidence into product development efforts; others think that they have all the answers, are immune to outside influence of their Customers to their later detriment. Much of the credit for whatever part I have played should really go to our Customers for their suggestions.

There's a lot that goes on behind the scenes in this business, where it's a question of trade-offs in a non-perfect world...

Yes. I work with Chinese manufacturers all the time. My company manufactures millions of consumer electronics products per year there. It's indeed complex. Where they often lose time is in failure analysis, where they'll jump on the first idea that pops in their head, and try to prove that is the root cause. Ignoring all the other possible root causes. So even if they have a tendency to rush forward, they'll lose time.

I would encourage EUC manufacturers to adopt a formal method of product development with phase gates, and as you say, a large amount of statistical process control. We build our products in Proto, EVT, DVT, PVT phases. We don't get to move from one phase to the next without meeting the gate exit requirements of the current phase, which includes items like meeting the Cpk process control targets for a myriad of items. Each sub-supplier has to provide extensive PPAP data showing their parts can be manufactured within tolerance.

This process was developed for the automotive industry.

Edited September 11, 2021 by Jon Stern

[div]

As a product designer I have seen both disorderly and overly rigid development processes (in China). While the efficiency could be discussed, reactivity have been the last of our issues.

[Augus]

I would not be surprised if local distributors in some countries, especially in Europe, are pushing not to exceed 100V.
In Spain for example, any EUC ceases to be a personal mobility vehicle if it exceeds 100V, and it becomes illegal.

[mike_bike_kite]

I'll admit I can't see the point of having over 100v either. My Nik+ goes fast enough to get me in trouble. I know there are a few individuals who want to go at silly speeds but the majority of us probably stick to more sensible speeds. I think Seba did a study of the data fed into EUC world and 90% of riders rode 15mph-25mph (I can't recall the exact numbers). I appreciate you guys have already designed the wheel, and it looks great, but I can't see the point of the big voltage jump. Could anyone say the pro's and cons of doing this? 

[PourUC]

25 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'll admit I can't see the point of having over 100v either.

It's not about raw speed. It's about current overhead. What causes cut out's is when the amperage requested to balance the wheel is greater than the batteries/controller can output.

By increasing voltage you lower current for the same overall power. This means you have more of a current overhead to prevent cutouts.

When jumping a wheel you can see really high current draw when you accellerate up a steep ramp and also when you land. It makes sense to go as high voltage as you can as long as you mitigate the risks that the voltage brings for electric motors.

On EUC world, the safety margin you see is current based. With a high voltage wheel + a conservative speed cap, we should expect basically no cases of overpowering the wheel unless you REALLY try.

[Planemo]

15 hours ago, Augus said:

In Spain for example, any EUC ceases to be a personal mobility vehicle if it exceeds 100V, and it becomes illegal.

Interesting. I didn't know that.

I must admit, crazy high voltages don't seem to help our case for legislation. Especially when no legal ebikes here are over 42v. I don't think theres anything in law to say they can't be, but given our 250w output limit, one has to ask why anyone would want more voltage for such a measly output. With EUC's, the lawmakers may be asking the same question. Mind you, 100v isn't exactly low either I guess.

40 minutes ago, PourUC said:

It's not about raw speed. It's about current overhead. 

Then why not just run more cells in parallel instead of series?

I honestly don't know why KS have gone this high on voltage. The Sherman does just fine re overhead on 100v.

That said KS aren't daft so there must be a good reason.

[Rollin-on-1]

7 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Interesting. I didn't know that.

I must admit, crazy high voltages don't seem to help our case for legislation. Especially when no legal ebikes here are over 42v. I don't think theres anything in law to say they can't be, but given our 250w output limit, one has to ask why anyone would want more voltage for such a measly output. With EUC's, the lawmakers may be asking the same question. Mind you, 100v isn't exactly low either I guess.

Then why not just run more cells in parallel instead of series?

I honestly don't know why KS have gone this high on voltage. The Sherman does just fine re overhead on 100v.

That said KS aren't daft so there must be a good reason.

The Sherman has dropped people low speed torquing because the high current burns the board.  They pull great at higher speeds but have huge current spikes at slower speeds. 

A torque motor with high voltage like the S20 is supposed to have eliminates these issues (once they do it successfully).  

[Planemo]

11 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

The Sherman has dropped people low speed torquing because the high current burns the board.

I'm not aware of a slew of people getting slow speed cut-outs because of burnt boards on Shermans (taking aside OH Hill and the looney riders trying to go up 45deg inclines), but I take your point.

The option of course is to simply build a better board.

11 minutes ago, Rollin-on-1 said:

  A torque motor with high voltage like the S20 is supposed to have eliminates these issues

I get that more voltage = less current requirement but are there really that many 'normal' riders who are burning their wheels up? Especially KS riders who aren't known for their riding lunacy.

I'm not knocking KS for doing this, I'm just not entirely sure it's necessary for any wheel, let alone one that isn't intended for speed. In short, if someone wanted a hugely powerful 30~35mph tops wheel, just wind a really high torque motor, strong board and 100v in 10P format. A bit like an RS HT but with an ever torquier motor wind, maybe an inch or so smaller wheel diameter and a 10P pack instead of 6P.

It's not like running 126v doesn't bring with it it's own problems anyway.

As I say, props to KS for at least venturing into this, but I have yet to see a well-explained reason why they did, given that IMO you could do it with 100v if you really wanted to. I do stand to be educated though

 

[PourUC]

48 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Then why not just run more cells in parallel instead of series?

The amperage going into the board would still be high.

This has other issues like higher temperatures and beefier mosfats being required. We literally see shermans motherboards popping on steep hills.

We went from 67v to 84v to 100v all for the same reason essentially. More performance at a reduced current requirement. Going to 127v has all the same reasons as the prior upgrades. I just believe Kingsongs reason isn't to make a 60mph wheel, rather just one that can decently fast but never need more amperage than what is possible to provide.

Your argument could be given to 100v wheels, why not stay at 84v and just put more batteries in parralel so that higher amperages can be achieved. Because the components that amperage has to go through now needs to be much beefier than just increasing the voltage and insulating the board better.