Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Electric Dreams]

4 minutes ago, enaon said:

@jack, if you can answer of course, was the s18 an inhouse design, or was it outsourced? 

in house 

 

 

[enaon]

3 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

in house 

 

 

thanks for answering, I would bet otherwise, my respect to the design team. 

[EMA]

22 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I think I'll wait to see a REAL wheel on a REAL scale. Dont we recall how the published weight of the s18 also got heavier as it neared release? So much thought and energy wasted in even reading spec sheets and listening to rumors. Yeah, its rumors until it's reality.

great words, +9000  

btw to all people who still think this kind of wheel could weight 28kg   ( which again is the weight of a "simply RS wheel" )

KS website on FAQ page already estimate 35kg... 

 

[PourUC]

On 8/30/2021 at 9:22 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

Yeah, its rumors until it's reality

Some of it is speculative, however it isn't just rumours.

Some things you know are going to be a reality.

1) Suspension
2) Larger diameter tyre as stock
3) 2000Wh + Battery
4) Will have a screen
5) Will have adjustable power pads as stock
6) 40mph+ 

I say these things because some people (including yourself) seem to be taking this position that all of the above is just 'speculation' and it may be removed from the final product. That's just false.

Of course, things like weight are not concrete. But they won't just rip main features off the wheel. You can bet that the wheel will have the above things.

Also, many people like to be early adopters. Whilst I myself am not pre-ordering, I will still buy in batch 1. Pre-orders and myself will get the batch 1 wheel, warts and all. But it's not like the pre-orders are going to have a 16x turn up at their door.

[Ben Kim]

On 8/30/2021 at 4:22 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

I think I'll wait to see a REAL wheel on a REAL scale. Dont we recall how the published weight of the s18 also got heavier as it neared release? So much thought and energy wasted in even reading spec sheets and listening to rumors. Yeah, its rumors until it's reality. I'm betting its a 5lb wheel that can go 100mph for 200miles with music, cruise control, cup holder, seat, suspension that rivals ANY motocross bike and can charge in 2 minutes by simply rubbing a piece of felt on it quickly.  Yup, that wheel is totally real, its just in prototype/render stage. Absolutely no different than the end result will be, I promise...

OR..... we could simply just wait to see how it winds up. Wouldnt it be so wierd if we all kept our money until the product was offered? Shouldnt pre-order customers be called 'financial backers' and be earning interest and/or stock in the company? As far as I'm concerned I'm owed an apology at the very least, for borrowing my money to finance a wheel that was nothing like it was represented prior to release. I'm waiting.....

I surmise I'll be waiting until at least spring, to see how this all REALLY pans out. Anyone else feel like making the company prove themselves to earn that bread? Yeah, that track record has taken a hit, you aint fooling me twice. I can wait... Just to be nice to everyone, I'll stay out of this thread until its no longer fiction at the very least.

Unlike Gotway which makes first batch buyers alpha testers, Kingsong first batches are more like beta testers  With that said, I have one on pre order. The only point of speculation on my end is how intrusive the tiltback will be. If the S18 is anything to go off of, it won’t handle too well in a crash though. 

[Unventor]

7 hours ago, PourUC said:

I say these things because some people (including yourself) seem to be taking this position that all of the above is just 'speculation' and it may be removed from the final product. That's just false.

I don't think this is entirely the case. Let me explain. 

Many manufacturers in EUC industry and other business es are having huge difficulty to source electronic components. In EUCs the most affected parts I can see are MOSFETs and displays and batteries. 

I could see the display being dropped if they cannot secure a large enough quality for production. It isn't essential for the product to work and it can easily be interduced in a mk II version.

Batteries are more tricky. It is hard to do a major change due to space and power demands. 

The bigger question here will be supply Vs demand and how long the component shortage continues. I work in a business were we see similar issues. My prediction is this is at least 6months+ problem. So by spring 2022 it might be almost normal again. But only time can tell. 

So back you what I quoted. Since they have not a set production model just yet it is still open to major changes and to me when first production series hit true end users or customers that is when it becomes more set what the S20 will be like. Yet all models are subject to changes. We have seen this in the past.

[Unventor]

On 8/30/2021 at 3:47 PM, Paradox said:

The attitude of releasing wheels before fully tested.  Letting your first sales be your beta testers. 

That said some things do not show up until you have large scale production and true end users testing the limits of their new products. 

You see this in game and computer industry too. 

And like @Jack King Song wrote they do not force you to by 1st batch. I bought 3x 1st batch wheels of the 5 different ones I have owned. 

Now I have a wheel (or rather 2 of them) that suits me really great. So next time I will wait before buying a new wheel.

Now the S20 might be a big upgrade for some. But for me I don't see the need to move away from my 2x V11 just yet. If I got the option to test ride it or at least see it in real life view that could change. 

So to bring it back to your question. A manufacturer can test, iterate, test, change review, modify, test and review endlessly. At some point a decision is made to go into production and sale start.

In such a cycle some things can be missed out because of focus were on different things. Or some one comes up with a simple idea for improvement that is easy to implement. That is why people talk batches.

But I think we are starting to see a much more fluent development/sale/feedback/modification cycle happening. This is something you as a consumer have to vote with your wallet. It is a choice to be early adopter or betting of proven model. And it is an individual choice to make.

Moaning about it afterwards will not help. In that situation my best recommendation is to make the best of a not ideal situation. This is not something that changes because of a bigger $ bill. But the bigger bill most people tend to treat this more cautious.

[YourAubsome]

15 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

I agree to be honest with everyones point and really its all about finding balance. 

As you know if you've been in the EUC community or worked for any of these companies, these companies including ourselves sometimes have the difficult position of launching a product because we are 4-5 companies fighting for the clients in the same client base. This results in as you saw last year rushing to release the S18 because Inmotion V11 was launched, and we were scared it would impact our sales. I was hired last minute and was simply just told few days prior to organize a launch for the S18. Everything had pretty much been set. 

When I came to King Song I wanted make increase both the # of fish and the pool size at the same time I wanted King Song to have better planning in terms of future product launches, foreseeable future trends of EUC and planning for those.  I understand both the perspectives of @Darren Crosbie-Rowlands and @Lukasz.

When you create a product that isn't as mass produced as per say a Ninebot Scooter the QC problems are harder to manage on so many levels that I won't get into. So when we produce a product like the S20, I felt it does more justice to minimize the amount of materials as it would be easier for aftersales and any additional that didnt serve an actual function. Striking a balance between not testing it for too long and too extensively because of the reality of the size of the market and if we did the increased opportunity cost of a lower life cycle of the product plus extra costs of testing but also testing it relatively well to ensure that early adopters don't feel like they are beta testers. As with any product early versions always have issues, we will never be able to send out the amount of samples Apple does before they launch it, though I do hope that one day may come. 

S20 Eagle could have been launched around the time V12 first leaked, and at moments I had fought back against the entire team on some decisions and this was not one I was going to change (in regards to just launching it with the V12), I knew that if we leaked any images of the S20 near the launch of the V12 it would mean a rushed production of the S20 with retailers coming to us to rush us for product to be exported and I wasn't ready to put that kind of pressure on anyone of my team for a semi-finished product. Though, I'm not an engineer and do understand all the kinds of materials and the more technical parts, I do understand this business and EUC product manufacturing from both sales, marketing, business, our community base  as a whole a whole lot better than anyone else in this market now. A ridable prototype was and had already been tested since many months ago. We will reach another more finished product prototype by early September and a refined prototype end of September. 

Hope this provides some insight to King Song and the brand I am helping to represent. 

@Jack King Song, we are so lucky that you exist! Tons of Chinese companies are making products that we love but they are almost impossible to communicate with and it seems like they don't have a single fluent english speaker based on their marketing materials. You are totally changing the game! We can actually talk to someone who has some say at the company, and you speak our language and understand us! Even better, your an avid EUC rider who is very talented at breaking things (super important for testing!!). I also love that you tell us the truth, even when it means admitting a KingSong wheel has a problem, or saying that a wheel from another company is great .

As for the people who complain about down payments for an unfinished product... I put down $100 at ewheels the day that kingsong launched the S20 site (weeks before we even saw a render). Why not? The $100 is fully refundable if you change your mind, and it's not like Kingsong is getting that $100, it's just helping ewheels know how many of these things they need to order. I'm not crowdfunding this wheel nor am I a backer. If the wheel fails to launch then I get my money back.

Edited August 31, 2021 by sevin7

[Heyzeus]

18 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

When you create a product that isn't as mass produced as per say a Ninebot Scooter the QC problems are harder to manage on so many levels that I won't get into. So when we produce a product like the S20, I felt it does more justice to minimize the amount of materials as it would be easier for aftersales and any additional that didnt serve an actual function. Striking a balance between not testing it for too long and too extensively because of the reality of the size of the market and if we did the increased opportunity cost of a lower life cycle of the product plus extra costs of testing but also testing it relatively well to ensure that early adopters don't feel like they are beta testers. As with any product early versions always have issues, we will never be able to send out the amount of samples Apple does before they launch it, though I do hope that one day may come. 

One thing KS and others manufacturers can do to mitigate quality control issues is spend a little extra upfront on durability of parts. 

Why do I read posts on here of people talking about the threading on their screw posts for their EUC's stripping, or screws snapping, or the screw heads stripping.

Often times the attitude seems to be "use the cheapest part that will do the bare minimum job of putting these parts together" rather than "can the user disassemble and reassemble this wheel 10 times over the next 3 years/do maintenance on it without having to buy aftermarket screws or a new shell because the screw holes are stripped and now the shell doesn't stay attached tightly or rattles etc.  I remember the issue of the axle bore hole being too small on some of the gotways and the guage of the wires being too thin and as a result wires getting too hot and melting and failing.  This could have been prevented upfront by overbuilding, saying what's the maximum power stress this wheel can place on the wires, now are the wires thick enough to handle that stress for a good duration, if so, congrats you have overbuilt the wheel and increased it's reliability for a very small marginal upfront cost.  A cost that is much cheaper than having to fix the issue after the fact and certainly cheaper than the hit to your reputation of having failing wheels or fires because things got too hot (cough gotway cough). 

Did you spend tons of time making the wheel waterproof and getting an IP rating only to then cheap out on screws and use ones that rust easily or other metal parts vulnerable to weathering and rusting if the coating has worn off.  OMG like Why?

By overbuilding and using quality parts for the minor things you have less of the minor issues to test and deal with in QC and can focus on the more complex issues like does the firmware of the wheel manage the wheel in a way that is reliable and feels natural, is the shock tuned properly and strong enough to avoid bottoming out and avoid causing damage if it does bottom out for the majority of the customer base, what's the effective life on the shock, waterproofing, and other more complex problems

Yes, there are more complicated issues that might not be caught till it's in more hands for an extended duration like the painted bearings or hammering them in on the s18 or the cracking saddle on the v11  but at least you can stop some of the other QC issues up front.

I understand minimizing costs is important but some of these failures I see are just really things that should have stopped being points of issue 6 years ago.

How much extra is the cost per screw to use ones with heads that don't strip, how much extra is it to use brass inlays in the screw holes and make the plastic posts thick enough to handle the brass inlays and not crack under vibration.  Maybe I'm off but when I go to a hardware store, the difference in price between the cheap screws and the decent screws is rather negligible when buying a pack of 100 and I would imagine the price differential is even better if you are buying a batch of 500,000 screws.

18 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

S20 Eagle could have been launched around the time V12 first leaked, and at moments I had fought back against the entire team on some decisions and this was not one I was going to change (in regards to just launching it with the V12), I knew that if we leaked any images of the S20 near the launch of the V12 it would mean a rushed production of the S20 with retailers coming to us to rush us for product to be exported and I wasn't ready to put that kind of pressure on anyone of my team for a semi-finished product.

I'm glad you held off, Kudos for pressuring them to wait longer and get more data.

I don't want to sound like I am shitting all over KS and others, I often tend to point out the flaws I see, so I will give credit where credit is due that the quality of wheels has improved over time, so it's great that progress is being made and I love that boundaries are being pushed, but sometimes some of these QC issues are so painfully obvious they would happen that it really looks like no one thought it through and it feels like 2 steps forward 1 step back.  And sometimes you have stuff slip through that really ruins confidence in a manufacturer(fires) and undoes years of hard work trying to build a reputation.

You partner with youtubers who have a large following(amongst the community) to test and review your wheels, but there are also a lot of very smart engineers on this board(and elsewhere) who seem to identify points of failure or problems before your own in house engineers. Like literally within days of getting 1st batch wheels.  Perhaps KS and other manufacturers should partner with some of the more advanced science minded engineer types and hobbyists on this board or elsewhere(those who build battery packs, have a background in electrical engineering, understand material science and how much stress parts can handle, programmers, etc) to do teardowns of your wheel and the parts you are using to suggest improvements.  I bet many are hobbyist enough and passionate enough that they would do it for free just to ensure a wheel put out is quality and has less maintenance problems or for a discount on the wheel.  Hell have any of these companies reached out to the developer of EUCworld, if not, they really should for input on their apps since many of them have a reputation for their apps being full of issues.  Here you have someone who took on a passion project because the manufactures were doing a poor job of providing the minimum needed/desired functionality.

Many manufactures seem to be penny wise and pound foolish and it's a really unfortunate thing.

/rant

Edited August 31, 2021 by Heyzeus

[Paul A]

Are the problems described pertaining to KS or Gotway?

First hand experience?

 

[That Guy]

1 hour ago, Heyzeus said:

Often times the attitude seems to be "use the cheapest part that will do the bare minimum job of putting these parts together" rather than "can the user disassemble and reassemble this wheel 10 times over the next 3 years/do maintenance on it without having to buy aftermarket screws or a new shell because the screw holes are stripped and now the shell doesn't stay attached tightly or rattles etc. 

...

By overbuilding and using quality parts for the minor things you ...

...

I understand minimizing costs is important but some of these failures I see are just really things that should have stopped being points of issue 6 years ago.

(I once worked in a German company manufacturing in China.) I think the problem is not as much in trying to minimise the cost (everyone does that, Siemens, Miele, Toyota and Honda do that). The problem in China is that it is very hard to predict the quality either by the look, documentation or presentation. The screws look exactly the same, the material sheets satisfy all specs and people who bring it all to you look full of engineering sense... And then you suddenly find out that the screws snap in hands, material sheet is fake and the welders who worked on your project last week were just humble farmers a week earlier... It is almost impossible to avoid hiccups with the quality using the same approach to QA as say, in Europe because the traditional QA still contains a big component of trust and honesty. To minimise the risk you are tempted to forget about any innovation (change of process), stick with one supplier or bring even more processes in house. Jack was talking about QA in the beginning of his videoconf with evX and pointed to almost philosophical nature of the problem...

[Dylan Weidman]

On 8/30/2021 at 5:12 AM, Jack King Song said:

I understand you're view but at the same time if we didn't open it up for pre-orders we would be bombarded by the amount of messages. We do not owe you an apology since we are not forcing you to pay for an S20 just based off the render, that is purely your choice. I agree though, some riders even myself if I was shelling out my own money would wait for an actual product until putting down the pre-order but too many riders are too eager! 

That’s right We’re Eager for the Eagle! 40mph upstairs catching air off the top! We’re headed that way and can’t wait. Feels so good to fly and it’s getting better. $100 is just a ticket for the line. Cheap cheap. The future getting good!

[DjPanJan]

@Jack King Song Hello is any posibility increase max alowed weight over 120kg?

Many actual EUC customers with full gear and backpack (chargeres etc) can easily hit 120kg.

[Heyzeus]

3 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

@Jack King Song Hello is any posibility increase max alowed weight over 120kg?

Many actual EUC customers with full gear and backpack (chargeres etc) can easily hit 120kg.

Maybe that weight is based on the default spring they use and if you used the 1000lb tension spring he mentioned earlier it would handle heavier weight better.  Clarification would be good as to whether it's a spring based weight limit or strength of pedal hanger/other materials based weight limit.

[AtlasP]

4 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

@Jack King Song Hello is any posibility increase max alowed weight over 120kg?

Many actual EUC customers with full gear and backpack (chargeres etc) can easily hit 120kg.

 

1 hour ago, Heyzeus said:

Maybe that weight is based on the default spring they use and if you used the 1000lb tension spring he mentioned earlier it would handle heavier weight better.  Clarification would be good as to whether it's a spring based weight limit or strength of pedal hanger/other materials based weight limit.

120kg is the max weight they list for all their high-end wheels (18XL, 16X, 18S, etc); this has nothing to do with the S20's specific suspension system or particular spring used. They either simply don't want to take responsibility for use cases beyond that safe, low limit, or it's quite possible they don't even have a single employee over that weight/that's comfortable doing experimental testing.

This is true of all the EUC manufacturers. I think the highest official max weight listed by any of the OEMs is 130kg (~287lb) which is by Begode on some of their newest wheels, but otherwise even the majority of Begode's most popular wheels historically like the MSX had a weight limit of/around the common choice of 120kg. Even the Sherman's officially listed max weight is only 120kg.

(See my table in my sig to see the official oem numbers across the board, as well as to compare those against eWheels' listed recommended numbers.)

Edited September 1, 2021 by AtlasP

[Tawpie]

54 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

they don't even have a single employee over that weight/that's comfortable doing experimental testing

If one person isn't heavy enough, add some more! (referencing KS videos where there were at least two people on a single EUC—although they didn't go down any stairs that I saw)

[UniMe]

@Jack King Song

With the heavier 1000lbs spring, will kingsong also make adjustments to the air shock component of the suspension? I ask because I've put heavier springs on mountain bike shocks and found the rebound dampening didn't always function well. Hopefully this has been tested and kingsong knows that the valving in the base shock will handle the extra rebound force of the heavier spring.

[Electric Dreams]

1 hour ago, UniMe said:

@Jack King Song

With the heavier 1000lbs spring, will kingsong also make adjustments to the air shock component of the suspension? I ask because I've put heavier springs on mountain bike shocks and found the rebound dampening didn't always function well. Hopefully this has been tested and kingsong knows that the valving in the base shock will handle the extra rebound force of the heavier spring.

I found 1000lbs's dampening quite good to be honest, once you land it sits completely still 

[Electric Dreams]

 

[fbhb]

43 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

 

@Jack King Song thanks for putting this to public opinion, although you already know what my choice is from our recent conversations - the CST 6004 is my clear favourite tire by a huge margin!

Edited September 2, 2021 by fbhb

[.....]

c-6004 with room for the widest shown and then some... Solid/durable rims and somewhat straight would be pretty nice.

Please finish/round the sharp edges off near the lights and other body areas.

Edited September 2, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[KNZ]

6 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:.

Please finish/round the sharp edges off near the lights and other body areas.

Yes, PLEASE. The sharp edges on the S18 pedal hangers are spooky.

[Tryptych]

On 8/30/2021 at 6:51 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

I REALLY hope you guys properly test and retest and stick to a build and quality standard that is enough to regain the trust of myself and many others.

This cannot be stressed enough: Jack don't let them rush this wheel... It could easily be KS's most profitable wheel, but only if you test and retest. Invest in QC and it will pay off - this wheel will be sold out everywhere.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by Tryptych

[wwwooooqq]

15 hours ago, DjPanJan said:

@杰克金宋 您好，是否有可能增加最大允许重量超过 120 公斤？

许多拥有完整装备和背包（充电器等）的实际 EUC 客户可以轻松达到 120 公斤。

Refer to the experience of mountain bikes, the suspension models are easier to match the weight. If you are very light, you will stand on the suspension without responding. If you are heavy, the suspension will be compressed by more than half. According to the suspension adjustment experience of the mountain bike, it will generally be The pre-compression is about 1/3-1/4. I believe that more than 120kg will have no effect on riding, but it’s good not to hit the bottom. The current shock absorbers can be adjusted, which is very good.

[The Fat Unicyclist]

3 hours ago, fbhb said:

@Jack King Song thanks for putting this to public opinion, although you already know what my choice is from our recent conversations - the CST 6004 is my clear favourite tire by a huge margin!

I agree... this would be an excellent "standard" option. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by The Fat Unicyclist