Popular Post Electric Dreams Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 48 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said: I think I'll wait to see a REAL wheel on a REAL scale. Dont we recall how the published weight of the s18 also got heavier as it neared release? So much thought and energy wasted in even reading spec sheets and listening to rumors. Yeah, its rumors until it's reality. I'm betting its a 5lb wheel that can go 100mph for 200miles with music, cruise control, cup holder, seat, suspension that rivals ANY motocross bike and can charge in 2 minutes by simply rubbing a piece of felt on it quickly. Yup, that wheel is totally real, its just in prototype/render stage. Absolutely no different than the end result will be, I promise... OR..... we could simply just wait to see how it winds up. Wouldnt it be so wierd if we all kept our money until the product was offered? Shouldnt pre-order customers be called 'financial backers' and be earning interest and/or stock in the company? As far as I'm concerned I'm owed an apology at the very least, for borrowing my money to finance a wheel that was nothing like it was represented prior to release. I'm waiting..... I surmise I'll be waiting until at least spring, to see how this all REALLY pans out. Anyone else feel like making the company prove themselves to earn that bread? Yeah, that track record has taken a hit, you aint fooling me twice. I can wait... Just to be nice to everyone, I'll stay out of this thread until its no longer fiction at the very least. I understand you're view but at the same time if we didn't open it up for pre-orders we would be bombarded by the amount of messages. We do not owe you an apology since we are not forcing you to pay for an S20 just based off the render, that is purely your choice. I agree though, some riders even myself if I was shelling out my own money would wait for an actual product until putting down the pre-order but too many riders are too eager! 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jack King Song said: For example I'm a 86-89kg rider, depends if I had my dose of fried chicken that day. But I would be opting for 1000lbs. We had riders who were 70kg and they felt the 750lbs was better. I would say give it a shot first before upgrading. Thanks for the reply, any tips for potential resellers if you are looking to replace the spring and/or model/name/specs (what do you search for to find a potential reseller for correct spring)? 1 hour ago, Jack King Song said: I understand you're view but at the same time if we didn't open it up for pre-orders we would be bombarded by the amount of messages. We do not owe you an apology since we are not forcing you to pay for an S20 just based off the render, that is purely your choice. I agree though, some riders even myself if I was shelling out my own money would wait for an actual product until putting down the pre-order but too many riders are too eager! Well this is entirely your fault for making such an attractive wheel. Edited August 30, 2021 by Rawnei 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Jack King Song said: I understand you're view but at the same time if we didn't open it up for pre-orders we would be bombarded by the amount of messages. We do not owe you an apology since we are not forcing you to pay for an S20 just based off the render, that is purely your choice. I agree though, some riders even myself if I was shelling out my own money would wait for an actual product until putting down the pre-order but too many riders are too eager! I don't really understand how NOT opening for pre-orders would limit messages. I am also in awe of the marketing tactics for sure. Whatever gets those wheels sold, do that. You don't owe me ANY apology for the s20. I have no real horse in that race. I was referring to the s18 that I watched the release vid, promptly prepaid, eagerly awaited and was disappointed with. It hurt worse as I was a devout KS fanboi and just love my 18L and 18xl's. My reluctance about the s20 is fueled by the memory of the s18 I sold at a loss. I REALLY hope the s20 isnt rushed and your design team is NOT undermined by the build staff. I REALLY hope that the pre-release info isnt hyped. I REALLY hope you guys properly test and retest and stick to a build and quality standard that is enough to regain the trust of myself and many others. You guys can make a great wheel. You guys can design a great wheel. Can you guys freaking build a quantity of them to meet these specs? Wheels that will have all its screws, proper wiring, proper bushings, balanced/straight rims, quality bearings, quality capacitors, quality boards, quality solder, quality connectors, proper overload protection, proper alloys and ALL that stuff that makes a company become the TOP builder by miles? The technology is there. The materials can be purchased and formulated. The cutting corners can be avoided. The testing CAN be done. The real question is... WILL YOU? I know people ask more than is technically possible or even affordable to try and build. I am not asking that. I am merely asking that you guys respect the insight and talent of the design team and build a wheel that stand HIGH above the rest in quality. Technology is what it is. Everyone is playing in the same game with the same basic limitations. I wanna see the unthinkable happen.... superior from top to bottom in the small details. You make me a wheel that performs as well as the Ks18xl does on the street, but increase part quality and add supple suspension... BINGO! If the s20 winds up being a refined ks18xl with suspension, and attention to build detail, you can count me in on buying one. I dont want miracles. I dont want something too heavy. Im not expecting a torque monster or a REAL offroad vehicle. You make it handle water, be reliable and dont scrimp on quality (yeah im talking decent screws too!), you can pump that price up to $3k and itll sell like hotcakes. Quality man, quality! Edited August 30, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said: I don't really understand how NOT opening for pre-orders would limit messages. I am also in awe of the marketing tactics for sure. Whatever gets those wheels sold, do that. You don't owe me ANY apology for the s20. I have no real horse in that race. I was referring to the s18 that I watched the release vid, promptly prepaid, eagerly awaited and was disappointed with. It hurt worse as I was a devout KS fanboi and just love my 18L and 18xl's. My reluctance about the s20 is fueled by the memory of the s18 I sold at a loss. I REALLY hope the s20 isnt rushed and your design team is NOT undermined by the build staff. I REALLY hope that the pre-release info isnt hyped. I REALLY hope you guys properly test and retest and stick to a build and quality standard that is enough to regain the trust of myself and many others. You guys can make a great wheel. You guys can design a great wheel. Can you guys freaking build a quantity of them to meet these specs? Wheels that will have all its screws, proper wiring, proper bushings, balanced rims, quality bearings, quality capacitors, quality boards, quality solder, quality connectors, proper overload protection, proper alloys and ALL that stuff that makes a company become the TOP builder by miles? The technology is there. The materials can be purchased and formulated. The cutting corners can be avoided. The testing CAN be done. The real question is... WILL YOU? I know people ask more than is technically possible or even affordable to try and build. I am not asking that. I am merely asking that you guys respect the insight and talent of the design team and build a wheel that stand HIGH above the rest in quality. Technology is what it is. Everyone is playing in the same game with the same basic limitations. I wanna see the unthinkable happen.... superior from top to bottom in the small details. It would be great to have all this top/quality specs... but in such case construction cost would rise over the roof, testing would take another year, and per unit cost would be something like 5k USD or more. Key in this game is to keep balance of those factors with real world. Assembly quality must be improved - bearings can not be hammered into their beds and crooked, key safety issues must be tested, however we shall understand that all early users of the unicycles are in fact testers. We agree with that and it is no other way around in fact in current world - EU/US/JP producers of electric unicycles does not exist. If You want quality - wait for second or even better third production batch - those shall have major issues addressed. I am within early adopters group, I design mods and improvements, so I am OK with current approach. Edited August 30, 2021 by Lukasz 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darren Crosbie-Rowlands Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Lukasz said: It would be great to have all this top/quality specs... but in such case construction cost would rise over the roof, testing would take another year, and per unit cost would be something like 5k USD or more. Key in this game is to keep balance of those factors with real world. Assembly quality must be improved - bearings can not be hammered into their beds and crooked, key safety issues must be tested, however we shall understand that all early users of the unicycles are in fact testers. We agree with that and it is no other way around in fact in current world - EU/US/JP producers of electric unicycles does not exist. If You want quality - wait for second or even better third production batch - those shall have major issues addressed. I am within early adopters group, I design mods and improvements, so I am OK with current approach. Im very new to the EUC world and im still learning but from what you are saying all i hear is that you are prepared to push out an insuperior wheel so that the early buyers will test it for you and you will learn from those issues and the 2nd and 3rd batches will have the improved quality. Sorry but that completely puts me off buying a 1st production wheel at the same price that a 2nd or 3rd batch will cost but they will have significantly less issues. That doesnt sit right with me and smacks of profit over customer care. I would rather wait the extra year for you guys to do the testing, after all you are supposed to be the experts!!! If you want your early users to be testers then give them the product at a significantly lower price or even free. But thank you for making my next choice of wheel a whole lot easier because if this is King Songs attitude to customers then i certainly will not be one of them!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Think member Lukasz (Luk Luk) is not a company representative of KS. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 18 minutes ago, Darren Crosbie-Rowlands said: But thank you for making my next choice of wheel a whole lot easier because if this is King Songs attitude to customers then i certainly will not be one of them!!! This is the attitude I find with most manufacturers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Think KS is being misrepresented. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 17 minutes ago, Paradox said: This is the attitude I find with most manufacturers. The attitude of explaining balance of cost and result? 🤔 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Just now, div said: The attitude of explaining balance of cost and result? 🤔 The attitude of releasing wheels before fully tested. Letting your first sales be your beta testers. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
div Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Paradox said: The attitude of releasing wheels before fully tested. Letting your first sales be your beta testers. @Lukasz explained the reason why. Just dont buy early batches if you dont trust them. I'd also prefer perfection right of the batt, but the world of small production doesn't work like that. If they where to be perfect they would release much later, and or more expensive. And it would be the same as waiting for batch 2-3 except the ones wanting it early couldn't get it. Edited August 30, 2021 by div 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paradox Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 1 minute ago, div said: @Lukasz explained the reason why. Just dont buy early batches if you dont trust them. I understand the reasons why. I just said I find this true with most manufacturers. Singling out KingSong would be wrong. This was the purpose of my post. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Paul A Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 Doesn't the same thing happen with cars? Incredible stories of bad designs, flaws, faults, reliability, etc. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post JimmyB Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 I personally think KS's position is fair enough. Anyone considering spending $2k+ on a wheel should surely be doing a bit of research first and going into things with their eyes open... ...that includes reading up on the risks that early adopters face. If they're happy to take a $1000+ hit on resale, they're able to have the latest toys to play with, as soon as they're out. Some folks get a kick out of modding, and whilst there's a chance of being stuck with a number of niggles that never get sorted, there's the warranty to cover any major stuff. The dealers with strong after-sales service (e.g. ewheels, speedyfeet) must really come into their own when buying batch 1 wheels. Like most on here, I won't be putting my money down for renders or any new wheels until they've been out 12 months, but I'm excited about the reviews we've got to look forward to in coming months - Veteran Abrams, Begode Commander and Hero, and of course the S20. Thanks to @Jack King Song for posting on here - from the S20 livestream chat, I got the sense that he's as frustrated by the QA standards at KS as we are - he's the sales rep, not the CEO. I just wish manufacturers offered high-end versions of wheels as an option - I'd happily pay $500+ for a higher level of QA, stainless steel screws etc. Most car manufacturers have being doing that for years, offering swanky ltd editions - I can't see how it wouldn't be profitable and foster better brand loyalty amongst "superfans". 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 Think manufacturers do try to uphold highest QC. There are costs involved with reputational damage, repairs, parts, warranty claims etc. Early adopters are not taking all total risks. The backing of reputable distributors for the customer is perhaps just one of many assurances that gives early adopters confidence. Perhaps looking at the responses of manufacturers when problems have arisen before, gives an indication of how much they care. Some brands are better, some not so much. Think: Car recalls. Takata airbags. VW uncontrolled acceleration deaths. Tesla auto pilot fatalities. etc. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lukasz Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Darren Crosbie-Rowlands said: Im very new to the EUC world and im still learning but from what you are saying all i hear is that you are prepared to push out an insuperior wheel so that the early buyers will test it for you and you will learn from those issues and the 2nd and 3rd batches will have the improved quality. Sorry but that completely puts me off buying a 1st production wheel at the same price that a 2nd or 3rd batch will cost but they will have significantly less issues. That doesnt sit right with me and smacks of profit over customer care. I would rather wait the extra year for you guys to do the testing, after all you are supposed to be the experts!!! If you want your early users to be testers then give them the product at a significantly lower price or even free. But thank you for making my next choice of wheel a whole lot easier because if this is King Songs attitude to customers then i certainly will not be one of them!!! Your opinion may change with time and gained experience. This is basically true for each new complex product - like car, motorbike, or even TV set that the first batch may have some issues which are resolved in next releases. It can not be avoided, and those first series products are usually not cheaper to buy - this is how the world works. All companies face this, and the same is for KS. When comparing to general quality issues known in this business KS has quite good quality / responsibility record - this is my own opinion of course, but based on 40 000 km ridden of all sorts of wheels since 2016 and several mods I made for almost each wheel in my posession. If You want to avoid issues - just wait for next batch or year model (in case of the cars), or buy previous well tested model - this is choice You have - and both groups - early adopters and caution buyers will have enough factors to backup their decisions. 7 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tawpie Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) Given the history of most all high profile EUC launches, my pucker factor from putting in a pre-order for the S20 is fairly high as well. KS is pushing things in several important areas here, even with the best design and QC practices they are certain to get some details wrong. And having spent the bulk of my life in product development I am all too aware that regular people do things to our babies that nobody in their wildest dreams would have expected—and usually our products don't handle those situations as well as we'd wish. Nobody in their right mind would try to take a unicycle down Tiger mountain, would they? The vast majority of us won't, but some of us will… and lessons will be learned. Yes, common sense tells me in no uncertain terms: wait for batch 3 or 4 when most of the teething pains and oh-sh1ts have been sorted. But. "I want my Oompa Loompa, and I want it NOW." Veruca Salt Edited August 30, 2021 by Tawpie 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, Paul A said: Doesn't the same thing happen with cars? Incredible stories of bad designs, flaws, faults, reliability, etc. Along with product recall, civil liability and free warranty replacement work at a local authorized dealer. Edited August 30, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post The Brahan Seer Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 Cars evolution has been on-going since the 1880's. In the very beginning up until the 1990's most manufacturers had many issues. Rust being a main problem in wet climates. In the UK cars lasting more than ten years was virtually unheard of in the 1980's. The amount of money needed to be injected into these businesses to create the cars we see today must be astounding. The industry has had 140 odd years to build up capital to invest in R&D and that amount of time on a product used by virtually everyone in the developed world. Our EUC companies are very young. and serve a very small customer base. Kingsong has been around since 2012/13 thats 8 years. Imagine how much it would cost them to even buy the machinery/tooling CAD etc etc to produce something with the same spec as modern day cars. I think we need to lower our expectations on what they can realistically deliver. What is it they say " making a prototype is relatively easy, but manufacturing it is the hard part. " yes we all want safer wheels and better quality and that will happen it just takes a lot of time. 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul A Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 The independent, non sponsored, youtubers with large followings and influence, take on the role of guinea pigs for everyone to benefit from. Their testing and knowledgeable/experienced reviews, they perform the role of beta testers. Think manufacturers test their products as best they can before release. They probably don't want negative publicity and loss of trust in their reputation, they want your sale and future sales, good recommendation to others. Don't need to be an early adopter, others are doing it for you for free. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Lukasz Posted August 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 30, 2021 29 minutes ago, Paul A said: The independent, non sponsored, youtubers with large followings and influence, take on the role of guinea pigs for everyone to benefit from. Their testing and knowledgeable/experienced reviews, they perform the role of beta testers. Think manufacturers test their products as best they can before release. They probably don't want negative publicity and loss of trust in their reputation, they want your sale and future sales, good recommendation to others. Don't need to be an early adopter, others are doing it for you for free. Key problem is that our community is small, and most "recognized" youtubers showing wheels have 1k - 10k , max 60k followers, with all of the more popular from them in some way biased by either direct contact with GW or KS or direct contact with dealers, so independent, non-sponsored and with many followers almost do not exist. 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
r_713 Posted August 30, 2021 Share Posted August 30, 2021 10 hours ago, Darren Crosbie-Rowlands said: If you want your early users to be testers then give them the product at a significantly lower price or even free. I agree with you. These manufacturers should charge a lowest price for first adopters and then gradually increase it each generation due to refinements/enhancements/etc. If this became an industry standard, I suspect that we would all buy into the policy. Perhaps this is what Veteran did with the Sherman. They said that it was because of battery cost but during this time, I was building battery packs and didn't get hit by this supposed increased cost. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Electric Dreams Posted August 31, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 31, 2021 I agree to be honest with everyones point and really its all about finding balance. As you know if you've been in the EUC community or worked for any of these companies, these companies including ourselves sometimes have the difficult position of launching a product because we are 4-5 companies fighting for the clients in the same client base. This results in as you saw last year rushing to release the S18 because Inmotion V11 was launched, and we were scared it would impact our sales. I was hired last minute and was simply just told few days prior to organize a launch for the S18. Everything had pretty much been set. When I came to King Song I wanted make increase both the # of fish and the pool size at the same time I wanted King Song to have better planning in terms of future product launches, foreseeable future trends of EUC and planning for those. I understand both the perspectives of @Darren Crosbie-Rowlands and @Lukasz. When you create a product that isn't as mass produced as per say a Ninebot Scooter the QC problems are harder to manage on so many levels that I won't get into. So when we produce a product like the S20, I felt it does more justice to minimize the amount of materials as it would be easier for aftersales and any additional that didnt serve an actual function. Striking a balance between not testing it for too long and too extensively because of the reality of the size of the market and if we did the increased opportunity cost of a lower life cycle of the product plus extra costs of testing but also testing it relatively well to ensure that early adopters don't feel like they are beta testers. As with any product early versions always have issues, we will never be able to send out the amount of samples Apple does before they launch it, though I do hope that one day may come. S20 Eagle could have been launched around the time V12 first leaked, and at moments I had fought back against the entire team on some decisions and this was not one I was going to change (in regards to just launching it with the V12), I knew that if we leaked any images of the S20 near the launch of the V12 it would mean a rushed production of the S20 with retailers coming to us to rush us for product to be exported and I wasn't ready to put that kind of pressure on anyone of my team for a semi-finished product. Though, I'm not an engineer and do understand all the kinds of materials and the more technical parts, I do understand this business and EUC product manufacturing from both sales, marketing, business, our community base as a whole a whole lot better than anyone else in this market now. A ridable prototype was and had already been tested since many months ago. We will reach another more finished product prototype by early September and a refined prototype end of September. Hope this provides some insight to King Song and the brand I am helping to represent. 37 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enaon Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 @jack, if you can answer of course, was the s18 an inhouse design, or was it outsourced? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lukasz Posted August 31, 2021 Share Posted August 31, 2021 Hello @Jack King Song thank You for the update - this is positive news that You did not rush before, and I hope that current development will bring good, well thought and designed wheel. I am looking forward to use it as early adopter and provide opinion/development thoughts which will allow to ensure that next batches for cautious buyers will be even better. Pandemic brought us some new challenges but also developed true worldwide cooperation to higher level - also in terms of design, product development, testing, etc. This allows such smaller companies (which in no way can be compared to auto makers) supported by enthusiast / affiliate co-workers to reach much popularity and gain broader client base. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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