Kingsong S20/S22 (Confirmed)

[Heyzeus]

19 hours ago, Paul A said:

S22 might be in reference to 2022.

Renamed to disassociate from disaster.

New revision without the anti covid germ sterilization feature

 

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Just for reference, what is the actual tire diameter (as measured with a ruler) of the S22?

Outer tire diameter is challenging to measure. What is standard and easily comparable between all EUCs is the rim size class.

KingSong S20/S22 has a 14” rim, just like all 18”, all so called 19”, and all so called 20” EUCs.

The outer diameter varies based on the tire model and width being used. To my knowledge no-one has yet precisely measured the outer diameter of the original S20/S22 tire.

GotWay started the +1 game when it increased the tire width to 18x3” on the so called 19” MSX (that says 18x3” on the tire!). Then I think it was Sherman that first +1ed that to 20” because it’s tire has the knobs on top. What’s funny though is that a Sherman with a street tire is still called a 20” wheel... I guess benefits are never lost. Sort of like a “New Game +” on some PS games.

 

5 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Renaming this wheel is both surprisingly understandable and pathetic. And wheel names, supposedly named after tire sizes, are even more meaningless now.

Exactly. I was able to deal with 18” wheels being called 19”, and even 20”, because there was no danger of mixing them with an actually larger size group. Even 21” would’ve fit in this paradigm.

But calling an 18” wheel a 22” wheel is just beyond ridiculous, and would be that even for BetWay. The Abrams 22” now has a rim 3” larger than the S22. That is simply wrong.

[chanman]

The whole concept of number in the model name implying tire size in inches was arbitrary to begin with and only kingsong was doing it, (with the exception of the Mten I guess). Not a huge loss there. Still hoping for some hardware changes, that might actually be worth the name change. 

[Paul A]

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet" is a popular adage from William Shakespeare's play Romeo and Juliet.

 

What does the saying a rose by any other name mean?

It's from Romeo and Juliet and the full quote is: "What's in a name? That which we call a rose. By any other name would smell as sweet."

What matters is what something is, not what it is called.

Edited April 3, 2022 by Paul A

[mrelwood]

49 minutes ago, chanman said:

The whole concept of number in the model name implying tire size in inches was arbitrary to begin with

It was very clear for a long time: The model number told us exactly what it reads on the tire sidewall.

49 minutes ago, chanman said:

and only kingsong was doing it, (with the exception of the Mten I guess).

And now the S22 is the first ever KingSong wheel which doesn’t imply the tire size by it’s model number. Instead it seems to imply a tire size one step larger. I’m sure that will be very misleading to a lot of people. I wouldn’t be surprised if a few even skip the S22 because they are looking for a so called 20” wheel instead.

 I’ve seen the same happen with the 18”=19”=20” debacle several times. Somebody described how 20” wheels are much more stable to ride than 19” wheels, referring to a Sherman Street vs an RS. (Let alone the puny 18” V11!) That misleading numbering causes misunderstandings, false information, and false tips and suggestions from one rider to another.
 

14 minutes ago, Paul A said:

"A rose by any other name would smell as sweet"

14 minutes ago, Paul A said:

What matters is what something is, not what it is called.

I disagree. Would I get any support if I suggested that roses will be called “Daffedil” instead from now on? No I wouldn’t, mostly because it’s misleading, as people would easily think that I meant to say “Daffodil” instead. Names have implications, references, and associations.

[Paul A]

Should maybe drop the 22 and just call it the Eagle.

The specifications will detail the wheel size anyway.

The renaming seems to be attempting to cut away from the disaster.

People googling S20 will read about the explosive flamethrower.

Googling S22 will be cleaner.

[5Cauac]

7 minutes ago, Paul A said:

Should maybe drop the 22 and just call it the Eagle.

 And those with the S20 can now call theirs the KingSong S20 Firebird instead. Sounds way better.  

[OldFartRides]

A “rare” bird ? Hmm ?

[GoGeorgeGo]

Should have called it the pheonix, the wheel that arose from the ashes of the fallen. 

But seriously the rename is silly. There was no major changes, its the same wheel. Giving it a rename is sensless other than to try to blow over a PR disaster. 

An s22 would have been an awesome future product. A 22" suspension wheel with a 126v 3300wh 6p battery. That sounds like its right in a market category they haven't entered yet. 

[UniMe]

+1 for Phoenix!

Version fluid... perhaps KS should let the wheel decide what version it is.

[Cress]

I read the last several pages of these posts after driving a couple of days - I have to put in my 2-cents.

I don't have experience with large manufacturers - but I'll guess @Tawpie can confirm that everything in a Boeing airplane is reviewed to death before production.  Significant failures in Boeing airplanes are rare.  Boeing does multiple reviews by multiple people to manufacture safe airplanes and maintain public trust.  When a Boeing airplane fails it's rare, really expensive and we all wonder why Boeing didn't find the problem before the airplane flew.  EUC Manufacturers and EUC Buyers are in a 'culture clash' that will get better when EUC manufacturers adopt some of Boeing's obsession for pre-production review.  I agree with @Tawpie, the Kingsong response to S20 New York fire is  better compared to spectacular EUC failures that happened before.

@supercurios focus on 'transparent communication between EUC Manufacturers and Buyers' is the best hope I see for EUC Buyers to relieve differences with Manufacturers.  By insisting on facts' then we're closer to dealing with under-spec'd MOSFETs / capacitors / batteries. 

EUC Distributors will probably push 3rd party review, emphasizing  batteries, which might help with batteries that shouldn't be on EUCs no matter the specification.  

EUC Manufacturers can make money by understanding they are in a 'clash-of-expectations' with EUC Buyers who value safety and reliability.. Pre-production technical review minimizes failure in early product release and meets Buyer expectations for safety and reliability.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Cress

[techyiam]

1 hour ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

But seriously the rename is silly. There was no major changes, its the same wheel. Giving it a rename is sensless other than to try to blow over a PR disaster. 

Not only are there no major changes, as least for the KS S20B's that are flashed to become the S22's, there are simply no changes. Exactly the same wheel, period. Just because a V12 has been flashed with a new firmware version, it doesn't suddenly become a V14. Even a V12 getting a newly designed driver board doesn't become a V14.

They blamed the cutout on the loss of hall sensor signals; the end. No further course of action committed on that front. And they wiil shared the report from the third party analysis of the battery pack; the end. Again, no further course of action committed. All the actions taken were printed on page 4 of their official announcement, which amounted to a new firmware version. Now that FW revision turnaround was way too quick. Software revisions and testing take time, assuming they tested it right?

On hind sight, @Chriull 's observation that euc's are developed by trial and error is so hard to dismiss. 

And @evX_Mick suspicion of substandard electrical underpinnings are not so far fetched anymore.

Where is the engineering? People are using these things as commuters now. And many of them store them insde their homes, take them on trails, inside stores, and work places. 

Edited April 4, 2022 by techyiam

[Tawpie]

7 minutes ago, Cress said:

@Tawpie can confirm that everything in a Boeing airplane is reviewed to death before production.

Affirmative. Every detail is reviewed to death. And still, they won't catch everything.

[Mango]

Boeing 737 MAX’s MCAS system and management’s refusal to retrain pilots on the new system that led to airplane crashes and many deaths because retraining would cost too much for Boeing.

KS is following a similar bean counting trajectory by trying to fix hardware issues with a software fix, since they aren’t going to want to redesign, test, build and replace new electrical subsystems into their production run. These early production units are highly suspect, and anyone owning one should be extra vigilant.

[Paul A]

https://www.forbes.com/sites/edwardsegal/2021/10/15/boeing-faces-new-challenges-to-image-reputation-and-credibility/?sh=340a61c56bff

Oct 15, 2021

Boeing Faces New Challenges To Image, Reputation And Credibility

Boeing is facing two new challenges this week to its image, reputation and credibility.

 

Federal Grand Jury Indictment.

Yesterday CNN reported that a federal grand jury indicted a former key executive of Boeing for fraud. They alleged “he deceived the Federal Aviation Administration while it was first certifying the 737 Max jet that would go on to have two fatal crashes caused by design flaws.”

 

Improperly Made Dreamliner Parts

Boeing is confronting a different issue that involves another one of their planes.

According to Reuters, the airplane manufacturer said that “some titanium 787 Dreamliner parts were improperly manufactured over the past three years, the latest in a series of problems to plague the wide-body aircraft.”

[Paul A]

https://worldofaviation.com/2021/08/faa-investigating-if-boeing-culture-led-to-employees-concealing-safety-issues/amp/

7 months ago

FAA investigating if Boeing ‘culture’ led to employees concealing safety issues.

 

The Federal Aviation Administration is investigating whether the “culture” within Boeing has led to employees concealing safety problems in fear of repercussions from executives.

 

The letter was sent on the 19 August, under the subject of an assessment results regarding Organization Designation Authorization (ODA), from the FAA’s Ian Wong, who assists Boeing’s safety oversight.

The investigation was conducted from May to July this year.

Out of the employees interviewed, 35 per cent of them voiced concerns indicating the “environment does not support” the authority of the ODA unit.

 

“Boeing’s company culture appears to hamper members of the ODA unit from communicating openly with the FAA, which is also identified as a concern,” said Wong.

The ODA unit enables the FAA to grant “designee authority” to organisations and companies.

The 20-month groundings from 2019 following two fatal crashes killing 346 passengers on a 737 MAX jet has continued to raise scrutiny on Boeing’s safety measures, even after recertification.

 

One employee said they had “an underlying feeling that sometimes I have to over justify my decisions at times”, according to excerpts from the interviews.

Another employee said their adviser is a “conflict avoidant”, where decisions that may compromise an applicant results in a negative experience, leading to “delays for resolution”.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Paul A

[UtahRider]

As an enthusiast rider only, not an engineer nor expert in EUC development, I’m simply going to conclude if the distributors sell these then I will assume they do their due diligence, review KS technical reports, fixes, etc., and deem the Eagle safe for consumer use, then I will buy it. If it’s a lemon,  I’ll deal with them.

[Forwardnbak]

7 minutes ago, UtahRider said:

As an enthusiast rider only, not an engineer nor expert in EUC development, I’m simply going to conclude if the distributors sell these then I will assume they do their due diligence, review KS technical reports, fixes, etc., and deem the Eagle safe for consumer use, then I will buy it. If it’s a lemon,  I’ll deal with them.

I can see what you are saying but we need to make sure Kingsong are going to look after the distributors in the back end. 
 

My store is a great small store, they do their best but I believe have to deal with lengthy warranty issues with some of the suppliers. 
 

I sought help in the past and the companies were the ones not wanting to pony up. That leaves the distributor out of pocket.

if distributors close due to wearing costs, their reputation at stake etc 

we have no community. 
so KS, step up with a strong backing of your product and give solid well spoken of service support to dealers and warranty to consumers. 

[Paul A]

Member Asphalt maintains the thread 'Fire History'.

It was last updated on March 28, 2022.

 

Frequency by manufacturer for all fires

Gotway/Begode: 21

Kingsong: 6

InMotion: 1

Segway: 1

IPS: 1

_______________

 

In motion is the largest EUC manufacturer and presumably the largest volume of sales.

Gotway have the most number of fires.  They have spontaneous combustion fires that can occur days after last use/charge.  

Member 'IsThereAnyFood' recently reported that two homes in Sweden were destroyed by fires.  One confirmed as Gotway, the other suspected to be Gotway.

Portland, Oregon middle of night spontaneous combustion was Gotway.

The car trunk fire whilst on a highway was Gotway.

The backyard shack (Brazil?) spontaneous combustion fire was Gotway.

There are others of Gotway on YouTube and in threads with pictures of horrific burn injuries to the people trying to extract the EUC outside.

These have occurred over a lengthy time.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Paul A

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, UtahRider said:

As an enthusiast rider only, not an engineer nor expert in EUC development, I’m simply going to conclude if the distributors sell these then I will assume they do their due diligence, review KS technical reports, fixes, etc., and deem the Eagle safe for consumer use, then I will buy it. If it’s a lemon,  I’ll deal with them.

I admire your faith in distributors doing 'the right thing'. And even if they do support you financially with your 'lemon' wheel, they certainly won't assist with broken bones or house fires as a result of said lemon. It's the latter which I have somewhat more of a problem with.

[Flying W]

I'm hoping that the "fix" in software prevents the fires on this wheel. It's the most off road oriented wheel and will spend a lot of time off road.

A fire in the forest will make national news and cause us all a lot of problems. 

 

[Funky]

9 hours ago, UtahRider said:

As an enthusiast rider only, not an engineer nor expert in EUC development, I’m simply going to conclude if the distributors sell these then I will assume they do their due diligence, review KS technical reports, fixes, etc., and deem the Eagle safe for consumer use, then I will buy it. If it’s a lemon,  I’ll deal with them.

As most have said. "WE" the costumer are the test dummy. That's why most people say: don't buy the newest euc, if you want something reliable. You need to wait at least 1 year, before said euc gets reworked, proven by customers. Example my ks18xl. It had the brittle black plastic inner shell, now it's white color and more rigid. Then it got updated motor, from 2000 to 2200. Lift sensor was changed over time.. So on..

They may release somewhat "good" euc, but over time they "polish" it. (I know it sound stupid as duck.. But that's how it is.. And we hate it.)

Edited April 4, 2022 by Funky

[Cress]

I agree with @Mango that Kingsong's response to the S20 fire is 'bean counter' style' but it is a response and it's progress because Kingsong responded.

EUC Manufacturers are extremely different compared to large manufacturers, very small shops without capacity to understand implications of design changes as their EUC product line evolves.   Each new model EUC is a modification of the design used before, leading to strange, under-spec'd components that would have been different if made by anyone who understands the technology.  

Progress by EUC Manufacturers is that they recognize and are responding  to product failures, corresponding with Users and Distributors.  @supercurio and a number of other people emphasize 'transparent communication' with Manufacturers  and I hope the trend continues.  If transparent communication is factual observation, measurements and testing the reliability and safety of EUCs can only get better.  Distributors have a big financial interest, are integral to EUC evolution and everyone benefits from Distributors communicating with Manufacturers.about design and component choices - before product failures upset evolution of the EUC.

Edited April 4, 2022 by Cress

[Xeranos]

It seems theres a lot of work to be done before riding this thing...

 

 

[meepmeepmayer]

I never realized how much extra mechanical stuff a suspension adds to a EUC. Without suspension, it's literally just the motor turning, that's the only mechanical movement.

Now we have sliders and the suspension levers and whatnot...