Have you experienced “cut off” or “cut out” when going less than 15 mph ?

[EUCnewtome]

Have you experienced “cut off” or “cut out” when going less than 15 mph ?

I ask this because after watching YT videos of cut off accidents and reading about others that had cut off, I’m wondering how safe EUC really is. I’ve ridden motorcycles and ATVs for more than 35 years and fortunately never had a serious accident, I use common sense and wear protective gear. BUT, if cut out can happen randomly when only going 15 mph or less without a cause then I think I might rethink buying a EUC. I really want to buy one but if I’m not pushing it and riding safely and random cut offs occur, is this a recipe for a major injury?

Do random cut offs happen even when rider is riding conservatively?

[Chriull]

9 minutes ago, EUCnewtome said:

BUT, if cut out can happen randomly when only going 15 mph or less without a cause then I think I might rethink buying a EUC.

No. These "cut outs" are nothing cutting off - its an overlean. Something intrinsic to bldc motors and their max torque over speed limit. https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?do=findComment&comment=107721

There is absolutely nothing random - it has a very deterministic cause!

Especially with the new powerfull wheels it gets harder too reach these limit.

Old, aged battery packs especially with degraded cells make overleans much more likely again.

And much easier with empty battery packs and easier with "low paralleled cell count" packs.

Of course real random by hardware failure caused cut offs happen - quality control is nothing the wheel manufacturers should be proud off. "Test" your wheel easy and get used to it!

Thermal managment is not perfect too and with "real overpowering" mosfets can fry leading to immedeate cut out.

 

9 minutes ago, EUCnewtome said:

I really want to buy one but if I’m not pushing it and riding safely 

Important is not mix high accelerations and high(er) speeds. The faster one goes the less one should accelerate!

[Obee]

I have had a single cut out which occured at very slow speed on a 67 volt, 480wh MTen3 after riding about 8 miles. Going up a slope from essentially zero miles per hour to a hard forward lean to accelerate.  The little wheel beeped and cut off all at once.  It "noped" out on me and I just stepped off as it tumbled away. 

The king song wheels are going to have more oomph to handle that kind of thing and also have tilt-back function which alerts you that you are approaching the edge of performance. 

 

[Chriull]

12 minutes ago, Obee said:

67 volt, 480wh MTen3 after riding about 8 miles. Going up a slope from essentially zero miles per hour to a hard forward lean to accelerate. 

An example for the older generation wheels with lower power which are in comparison quite easy to overlean. ... Like i still have, too ...

12 minutes ago, Obee said:

The king song wheels are going to have more oomph to handle that kind of thing

How comes? Kingsong are not the most powerful wheels and for example (new) GW wheels have no low speed power restrictions!

14 minutes ago, Obee said:

and also have tilt-back function which alerts you that you are approaching the edge of performance. 

As all other other wheels have, too. Although a fixed speed tiltback is not corresponding to "approaching the edge of performance*!

[Tawpie]

It's always "possible" to overlean all wheels, but if you ride conservatively all indications say you'll never experience one. And by "conservatively" I mean: respect the beeps, and when your battery is low pretend you can't do sudden acceleration or panic stops and ride accordingly.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Tawpie

[Obee]

Well maybe I said it wrong, and also my understanding might not be perfect regarding how tilt back works.

I didn't mean king song as a brand but rather the 18xl he has mentioned should have more oomph (battery available to absorb a good hard lean)

Regarding the tilt back though... Does it occur at a fixed speed, or at a certain point of battery "sag"?

[Chriull]

14 minutes ago, Obee said:

Regarding the tilt back though... Does it occur at a fixed speed, or at a certain point of battery "sag"?

Unfortionately at a fixed speed. Although KS wheels would have an "burden percentage" value ...

[null]

Actually I believe KS do have a power based tilt back now, (not beep, and it’s a bit unsettling) I have experienced it a few times on hard accelerations

Anyone to confirm?

Edited March 29, 2021 by null

[Ádám Szitás]

5 minutes ago, null said:

Actually I believe KS do have a power based tilt back now, I have experienced it a few times on hard accelerations

Anyone to confirm?

Yes, both IM and KS have it (at least their bigger wheels do for sure).

[Chriull]

15 minutes ago, null said:

Actually I believe KS do have a power based tilt back now, (not beep, and it’s a bit unsettling) I have experienced it a few times on hard accelerations

Would be great - if nicely implemented!

Did not really get anything about fw upgrades from ks lately...

[null]

18 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Would be great - if nicely implemented!

Did not really get anything about fw upgrades from ks lately...

It’s nice that it exists, I suppose it might be based on the inverter load. The execution is a bit violent though, hard tilt back while you are typically in an acceleration.

I believe it is on the 16S as well, though I wouldn’t particularly recommend seeking it out  

Edited March 29, 2021 by null

[litewave]

I've had two battery cut-outs resulting in hard faceplants on a Ninebot E+ using new 340wh Ninebot P batteries purchased from Speedyfeet. The older Ninebot Ones had only one battery pack, except the A2/S2 which can accommodate two. All the Z series wheels also have dual/redundant packs I believe.

Given that newer wheels seem to have redundant power supplies and more robust bms and control boards, this should hopefully not occur much any more.

[Chriull]

15 minutes ago, litewave said:

Ninebot E+

This was afaik one of the last wheels with bms cut off possible with riding. 

Was a real great time with my e+, but imho nothing to be compared with nowadays wheels.

[Obee]

My understanding (right or wrong I don't know) is that king song will tilt back when the "min safety margin" reaches zero percent, which I assume still has a margin to cutoff but is what king song has figured to be min acceptable.

I have gotten tilt back a few times. Mostly at max speed, but also (I think) at slower speed while cranking on it. 

Also I don't think it tilts back above zero percent because I have seen it get almost to zero with no tilt back. 

This stat doesn't appear on the app when paired with my MTen3. 

[Chriull]

1 minute ago, Obee said:

My understanding (right or wrong I don't know) is that king song will tilt back when the "min safety margin" reaches zero percent, which I assume still has a margin to cutoff but is what king song has figured to be min acceptable.

No. A safety margin (=100-inverter load)of 0 means overlean.

https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/7855-anatomy-of-an-overlean/?do=findComment&comment=307688

 and following posts.

4 minutes ago, Obee said:

This stat doesn't appear on the app when paired with my MTen3. 

Yes. This value is only reported by KS.

[VikB]

6 hours ago, EUCnewtome said:

I really want to buy one but if I’m not pushing it and riding safely and random cut offs occur, is this a recipe for a major injury?

My own way of asking this question would be what is the likelihood of an intermediate rider crashing riding under 20mph while riding normally [ie. on road, not doing tricks, etc..]. I don't really care what the reason is. I do care how often a non-newb would expect to hit the deck at reasonable speeds under normal riding conditions.  Riding my bicycle under these conditions my track record would be one crash every 10 years or/say 25,000kms. I haven't figured out what the equivalent risk is on an EUC.

[xiiijojjo]

Only times i ever had a cut off was when pushing past the 80% beeps like an idiot. I no longer do but ride as aggressively as my wheel will allow while staying under the 80% beeps and have not cut off since. Also i scale down how aggressive i accelerate/brake according to battery percentage.

[.....]

Ive pushed my baby mten to 'cutout' or overload beep and shut off. Typically when Im in soft dirt, uphill and acting like a jackass. It groans and warns me. Its also simp[ly obvious Im abusing it and I am more than ready when the inevitable happens. So to answer your question... YES, I have. AS for 'random cutoffs', those are merely hardware failure. IM guessnig the odds of that are just like the odds of ANY electrical component failing. Of course it could just as easily be an led go out as it could be a failure that couses cutout. Random is random and noone can say that random shit never happens.

Now for the intent of your question.

Don't worry about cutouts or overleans on modern wheels. If you buy a wheel that is fit for your needs and you treat it as such, you have other things to worry about and cutout chance is minor. I ride my 18L and it hasnt failed me. I DO respect the beeps tho and I am fully aware that I ned not act stupid when Im already low on battery or nearing top speed. If a person TRIES to cause an issue, they may find one. Just like if you never change out of first gear and keep the ole car pegged wfo. When it blows up, do we blame the car and fear buying another? Buy an appropriate wheel, learn and understand what you can expect from it, and you neednt worry much at all. You want worry, buy a death trap called 'One Wheel". Odds of random cutout are probably less than the odds of an asshat (in their car on a cellphone) hitting you while walking across a street.  I personally feel fairly confident in the warning systems that Locksong implements on my current wheel. The biggest thing is... If you arent willing to fall at one point, don't ride ANY vehicles. I go by the motorcycle creedo "it aint if you'll crash, its when".  SOme guys manage to beat the odds and some of us play them with a smile. @xiiijojjo is a perfect example of rolling those dice, living the dream and paying the house when the hand comes up Bust. I admire those that accept the gamble and come back to play, win or lose!

Edited March 30, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[gon2fast]

Overlean on several occassions on my former V10 (power on). Cutout on my V8 (power off) from weight/hard acceleration (280-90lbs at the time LOL), but it still carried my big frame at near ceiling speeds most days. 

Edited March 30, 2021 by gon2fast

[gon2fast]

Current wheels should not be a concern so long as you understand the operational limitations at the different levels of your battery consumption.

[mrelwood]

I have had two cut-outs at slow speeds, both hardware failures. Nothing random about them though, I’m a heavy guy and both times I was trying to beat my hill climbing steepness record...

9 hours ago, EUCnewtome said:

BUT, if cut out can happen randomly when only going 15 mph or less

While the wheels have improved a lot in just a few years, a spontaneous cut-off is always a possibility. It is nowadays extremely rare. But it still can happen. And that’s why we gear up even for short and slow rides.

7 hours ago, VikB said:

Riding my bicycle under these conditions my track record would be one crash every 10 years or/say 25,000kms. I haven't figured out what the equivalent risk is on an EUC.

The whole industry changes so rapidly that 10 years ago they were basically just at the prototyping stage. So figuring out the current risk must be done yearly, not decadely.

[VikB]

4 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The whole industry changes so rapidly that 10 years ago they were basically just at the prototyping stage. So figuring out the current risk must be done yearly, not decadely.

Of course. I happen to have decades of personal experience with a bicycle and with motorcycles. You can convert that risk to an annual risk and you can compute the EUC riding risk annually if that makes sense for the data you have available given it's a relatively new activity. Since I am new to riding EUCs I'll have to do my best to estimate my personal risk with the limited data I have. That's just the nature of the beast. 

 

[mrelwood]

1 hour ago, VikB said:

You can convert that risk to an annual risk and you can compute the EUC riding risk annually if that makes sense for the data you have available

I think this was just the point I was trying to come up with: There isn’t any real data available. This forum in itself only presents a very narrow enthusiast sector of the hobby. Ones that usually don’t ride wheels older than 1-2 years.

The average EUC rider is a mystery to everybody. Some large distributors and the author of EUC World have slightly more data than just us riders, but EUCW is also only a tool used by enthusiasts, and distributors only know their own sales figures for a small part of the world. And even they don’t know how many people are still happy enough with their 5 year old wheels.

 But simply from what I’ve experienced and read on this forum about the currently manufactured wheel models, it does seem that the risk of a spontaneous hardware failure is extremely small. I think that’s all the “data” we’ll be able to find.

Edited March 30, 2021 by mrelwood

[VikB]

16 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I think this was just the point I was trying to come up with: There isn’t any real data available. This forum in itself only presents a very narrow enthusiast sector of the hobby. Ones that usually don’t ride wheels older than 1-2 years.

The average EUC rider is a mystery to everybody. Some large distributors and the author of EUC World have slightly more data than just us riders, but EUCW is also only a tool used by enthusiasts, and distributors only know their own sales figures for a small part of the world. And even they don’t know how many people are still happy enough with their 5 year old wheels.

 But simply from what I’ve experienced and read on this forum about the currently manufactured wheel models, it does seem that the risk of a spontaneous hardware failure is extremely small. I think that’s all the “data” we’ll be able to find.

I'd agree there isn't "real" data complied by statisticians like there are for other well documented mainstream activities and there is a limited track record for EUC safety because it's new-ish. I also would not just be interested in hardware failure as I noted above because what I really care about is what is the risk of hitting the deck/being injured under various scenarios. If EUCs never had hardware failures, but they were inherently unstable [not suggesting they are] and a sudden crash once per thousand miles was normal/expected I'd care a lot about that.  

I can only assume most people are doing some sort of risk analysis as the ride EUCs. Whether it's something formal/comprehensive or not. The data we have may be limited, but if it's what we have then that's what we need to use. Over time we'll have more and more data plus each individual rider is building their own track record/experience to draw from. 

I also agree with you that spontaneous hardware failure doesn't seem like a big risk from the reading/watching about EUCs I have done. Perhaps with the exception of riding wheels with poor weatherproofing in very wet conditions. That's one of the reasons I started with an EUC known for better weather resistance and why I wouldn't plan an EUC ride when it's likely to rain heavily.

Edited March 30, 2021 by VikB

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, VikB said:

what I really care about is what is the risk of hitting the deck/being injured under various scenarios.

Various scenarios is a very wide range. If I disregard small tumbles when I was starting, or when I’m challenging myself at gnarly off-road challenges, I have fallen only twice. The first one would’ve been mitigated by a larger wheel (which I ordered the next day), the second would’ve been prevented by not jumping up and down like a crazy person to feel the suspension... I have ridden about 30 000 km in four years. I think that’s a darn good track record.

One local guy is a crash magnet though. He doesn’t ride fast or crazy like I sometimes do, but he might not always be very concentrated. He has visited the hospital at least three times due to a surprise crash on flat road.

I think it is absolutely possible not to crash a single time for one’s EUC  career. But it depends on many things, like how you ride, where you ride, what you ride, where your mind is at, etc.