PatrickD Posted March 22, 2021 Share Posted March 22, 2021 Is there any new topic on this forum, or any place off this forum, that provides more information on how long an EUC will last? This does not include batteries; battery longevity can vary due to several conditions, and from my understanding, decent battery care can provide more mileage than what I suspect a common motor may provide before needing repair/replacement, though batteries do sometimes need replacement and that can certainly increase wheel cost over time. It's my understanding that batteries currently cost in the ballpark of 50% (but varying greatly) of the wheel cost. Looking at replacement motors, they don't seem as expensive as I thought they would be based on differences between similar wheels with different motors: EWheels currently sells the Sherman motor (with rim) at 11% ($340) of the new unit cost, with the larger capacity batteries at 73%. The control unit is 9%. I understand that all the parts sold separately will total a price (about $3800 it looks like plus tire) higher than the whole unit cost ($3100), but this gives an approximation. EWheels currently sells the V10F motor at 19% ($290) of the new unit cost, with batteries at 43%. The control unit is 15%. Tires are not too expensive, and obviously will need to be changed after so many thousand miles, depending on the type of mileage. Control units don't seem to go bad too much, as long as they aren't overheated or pushed too hard, but I am new so maybe I overestimate their longevity. A lot of us would send the wheel to a dealer for repair also, if not wanting to deal with the repair ourselves, so that's a factor also. I did find a post on this forum that referenced a V8 giving out at around 6,000 miles, and another one finally giving out after 10,000 miles, after a lot of bearing grinding, irregular turning, etc. It certainly wasn't working like new near the end of its life. With no replacements on the unit, lasting 5,000 miles, not including electricity, even a $1000 wheel would be $.20/mile. However, with moderate repair costs, perhaps it could go much further. I'm not sure what you all consider to be your average cost per mile of city driving, but $.20 is certainly not a negligible amount. I understand that convenience can make an EUC either more or less valuable depending on where one lives. I generally find a car much more convenient than any other transportation; there is plenty of parking in my city. I also understand that some people come to EUCs for environmental purposes or for a sporting/recreating purpose. For this discussion, I am really trying to focus on the practical costs of EUC mileage (excluding increased time spent per trip and possible medical costs). So, please respond with any information such as how long motors/bearings typically go before replacement, how often control units may go in good conditions, or any other insights into the total direct costs of using an EUC (just the unit, parts, shipping, labor). Finally, I apologize if this is in the wrong section. I chose "Which EUC to get" because longevity is an issue that could affect one's EUC decision. Maybe it shouldn't be as much of an issue, but a $1000 EUC that has the same longevity as a $2000 EUC certainly seems more cost effective, if ignoring all the performance/battery differences between the two. (However, the motor cost between a $1000 and $2000 EUC may be very small, looking at the V10F vs Sherman motors above.) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFartRides Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Well no one else has replied, so I will. As far as I’m concerned, these are expensive toys. Cost per mile is irrelevant. Reliability is a concern, and that blurs into longevity. There’s an old term - Durable Goods. Refers to appliances (washing machines, etc.). Supposed to last at least ten years. So many manufactured things now are not built to last and are actually made with “planned obsolescence”. I guess EUC’s fall somewhere in between. I suppose if you are a commuter, or looking into using one of these for food delivery this is important analysis, but for a lot of folks, not so much. Let us know what you figure out. Best, 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post winterwheel Posted March 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 1 hour ago, OldFartRides said: Well no one else has replied, so I will. As far as I’m concerned, these are expensive toys. Couldn't disagree more. If one considers cars, motorcycles, bicycles to be more than toys then these are as well. It is a new mode of transportation with endless eventual use-cases, commuting be an obvious one currently, there are many of us doing that already. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldFartRides Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 Ha ! You own ten wheels, and that’s not a stable of toys ? Oh, ok they’re “tools”, with each and every one having a specific use for a specific job. Got it. best, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerDan Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 I bet 95% of all wheels are only used recreational so yea they are toys for the most people. And i dont see how this will change in the near future. If you compare them to its strongest competition (bicycles) the possibilities to transport stuff is very limited, they are the more dangerous, harder to ride and less capable on and offroad. There isnt really much benefit beside the formfactor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickD Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) Thank you all for the input. In defense of utility, the form factor (referenced above) is what makes the EUC better than a bicycle in many cases. In defense of recreation, I admit that most people do collect multiple wheels for recreation, and they are indeed very fun. My EUC was purchased for utility, but I do take it on recreational rides also. This topic relates to the direct costs of having an EUC, establishing its value as a tool, for those who are interested. Thank you everyone again for your input. Since my initial post, I have come to think of any wheel with the most battery economy ($/Wh, charge cycles, longevity in the cold weather) as being likely the best value, as long as the motor can be repaired or replaced. Still curious about motor longevity though. Edited March 24, 2021 by PatrickD 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 27 minutes ago, DangerDan said: they are the more dangerous, harder to ride and less capable on and offroad. There isnt really much benefit beside the formfactor. Thats some bold statements you come with, talk for yourself. Edited March 24, 2021 by null 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post conecones Posted March 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) EUC's have only three true consumables: tires, bearings, and electricity. Therefore the running cost is extremely low. Technically, yes the battery is a consumable but given its high relative cost vs cost of the vehicle, it should be treated as a non-consumable (good for the life cycle of the product, same goes for motor and control board). Treating the motor & control board as a consumable is like adding engine replacement costs into the maintenance cost of a car. Assuming a conservative 3 year life-cycle, this is how I calculated my cost to commute with a V8F vs my car: Commuting mileage: 8000km/yr (approx. 30km/day) EUC (V8F): 2 sets of tires & tubes - $100 2 sets of bearings - $20Charging cost breakdown: $0.10/kWh, 512Wh battery, 30km range using 80% charge and assuming 80% charge efficiency. 512/1000*0.10/30*8000 = $13.65, or $0.0017/km Total cost to run: $134/yr. Purchase price: $1500. Assumed 3 year life cycle.Adjusted total cost: $634/yr, or $0.08/km. Car (BMW X3): Insurance - $2400 (Canadian rates, FML) License plate fee - $120 Depreciation - $1500 (conservative based on used car) Maintenance - $1000 (conservative estimate based on low mileage)Gas cost breakdown: 10L/100km, $1.40/L 1.4/10*8000 = $1120, or $0.14/km Total cost to run: $6140/yr, or $0.76/km. As you can see, for dollar per KM, the EUC blows the car out of the water. It was very easy to justify to the wife when I can buy a brand new commuting wheel each year for the same amount as the yearly depreciation of the car. Even if the car doesn't depreciate at all, I could buy a Sherman + set of safety gear every year for just the yearly RUNNING COST of a car (ignoring lease/finance payments or initial purchase price). However, higher performance wheels like the Sherman and others are a MUCH worse value proposition compared to the mid-tier wheels because you will need a longer assumed life cycle or a much greater mileage to offset the purchase price, so for commuting purchases (and portability) something like the V8F or KS16S is hard to beat. For recreational use, the cost can vary a great deal and is very hard to calculate because it depends on the rider habits. For example pushing the vehicle hard can wear down boards faster due to higher heat, and riding off-road/stunting can dent the rims/snap the axle. Riding the EUC hard is akin to using your commuter to do burnouts in the parking lot on weekends. Edited March 24, 2021 by conecones Fixed calculation error 10 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) Having similar questions as @PatrickD I guessed about 500 full charges or 5 years from the date of purchase, whichever comes first (assuming usage of at least once every two weeks on average). Reasoning: 500 full charges is what the batteries seem to last, on average, after reading a lot of posts (and having battery experience in other fields) (250 charges if they're regularly stressed on charge and/or discharge, but that's subjective). After 5 years the batteries have aged, the other parts have had some wear and some aging effects, and technology has advanced far enough to obsolete older wheels (if there are even parts available) and make them "not worth repair" (which is highly subjective). There are some wheels that remain popular and are reliable (KingSong 18XL, InMotion V8, Gotway MTen3) and will probably be resold/rebuilt for years to come. Others....not so much. Lots of new wheels are being sold, but not many used wheels are hitting the second-hand markets. At some point I'd guess there's going to be a recycling issue where used wheels start popping up in quantity, and that's when additional regulations will set in. Well, that and EUC fires from degraded batteries--that'll be a hot topic. Edited March 24, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerDan Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 6 minutes ago, null said: Thats some bold statements you come with, talk for yourself. You cant argue with physics. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) Just now, DangerDan said: You cant argue with physics. You enter the high school lab and see an experiment. How will you know which class is it? If it’s green and wiggles, it’s biology. If it stinks, it’s chemistry. If it doesn’t work, it’s physics. I have a new theory on inertia, but it doesn’t seem to be gaining momentum.... Edited March 24, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DangerDan Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 I dont get what you want to say here. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickD Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 27 minutes ago, conecones said: EUC (V8F): 2 sets of tires & tubes - $100 2 sets of bearings - $20Charging cost breakdown: $0.10/kWh, 512Wh battery, 30km range using 80% charge and assuming 80% charge efficiency. 512/1000*0.10/30*8000 = $13.65, or $0.0017/km Total cost to run: $134/yr. Purchase price: $1500. Assumed 3 year life cycle.Adjusted total cost: $634/yr, or $0.08/km. Car (BMW X3): Ok, so basically you are expecting the battery to last around 800 charges of 30km each time. Without getting into your range, battery optimization, etc., I'll say that seems reasonable. Back to the main point, you are saying you'll ride that wheel 24,000km in three years. $1500/24000km is $.06, and electricity isn't much. I guess $.08 included. What I am questioning is the 24,000km part. However, you did include bearings in the cost. I would probably send them in to have changed, but still not that much I guess. Regarding your car engine reference, changing the few hundred dollar motor on an EUC seems like a more beneficial expense to get it going for a lot more riding than changing the engine on certain cars that are so worn out that other expensive items will continue to need repair also. Thank you for all the time you put into the response. My car expenses are nowhere near the example you gave, but I will use your calculations the next time I need to justify an EUC to my wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 57 minutes ago, DangerDan said: I dont get what you want to say here. Das war ein Witz. Edited March 24, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post conecones Posted March 24, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 24, 2021 9 minutes ago, PatrickD said: Ok, so basically you are expecting the battery to last around 800 charges of 30km each time. Without getting into your range, battery optimization, etc., I'll say that seems reasonable. Back to the main point, you are saying you'll ride that wheel 24,000km in three years. $1500/24000km is $.06, and electricity isn't much. I guess $.08 included. What I am questioning is the 24,000km part. However, you did include bearings in the cost. I would probably send them in to have changed, but still not that much I guess. Regarding your car engine reference, changing the few hundred dollar motor on an EUC seems like a more beneficial expense to get it going for a lot more riding than changing the engine on certain cars that are so worn out that other expensive items will continue to need repair also. Thank you for all the time you put into the response. My car expenses are nowhere near the example you gave, but I will use your calculations the next time I need to justify an EUC to my wife. Actual range of V8F for a single full cycle is more than 30km (I used conservative number), so it should actually be less than 800 charge cycles which is within typical battery spec. Budgeting for one motor replacement is probably a good idea but it would be to account for damage from an accident or ham-fisted tire lever usage. The motor itself is brushless so the only wearable part is the bearing. Assuming it's not subjected to high heat that can damage the insulation, and the bearings are changed, the theoretical lifespan is limitless. The motor should way outlast the battery. Cheers 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) You can get the battery cycle life expectancy from the producers spec sheet, the LG MJ1 that equips the V8F is rated for 400 cycles before it is down to 80%. This is more than the Panasonic / Sanyo we see in Gotway / Veteran EUCs. One also need to factor in various wear from time x temperature x state of charge, which makes it more complicated. Edited March 24, 2021 by null 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickD Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 @conecones @null Thank you for your input! I had just looked at $/Wh above, but perhaps to get long term costs down, I would need to compare $/Wh to realistic charge cycle counts with different battery products and technologies (LG MJ1 vs Sanyo x). I do most of my riding between 50% and 80%. From my limited understanding of battery properties, discharging from 75% to 50% on a 1000Wh/$1000 battery could yield more miles/$ than discharging 75% to 25%, for example, on a 500Wh/$500 battery with a replacement. (Not to mention larger batteries of the same brand/tech can be slightly cheaper per Wh, nor battery anxiety, nor problems with battery sag bringing that 25% down to 5%, speed limitations, etc.) @WI_Hedgehog I am trying to think of an EUC reply to your sciencey humor. I'm drawing a blank, but you've set my creativity InMotion. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 7 minutes ago, PatrickD said: . I do most of my riding between 50% and 80%. From my limited understanding of battery properties, discharging from 75% to 50% on a 1000Wh/$1000 battery could yield more miles/$ than discharging 75% to 25% Be careful! Not charging full _theoretically_ drasticly increases cycle count - but by the used passive top balancing not fully charging the packs _regularly_ very likely renders the pack useless way before normal cycle count! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
null Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, PatrickD said: 75% to 25% I believe you're pretty good in that bracket, if 50% is nominal value. (someone would have to confirm) The issue with partial charge (or whatever we call it) is that the balance between the cells is an unknown. A couple of years back our rule of thumb was to balance (charge to 100% + an hour or so) every 5-10 charge, but that hasn't proven that reliable. So some go for 100% every time, I try to space it a little more because we charge more often that each full cycle.. edit: What Chriull says Edited March 24, 2021 by null 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PatrickD Posted March 24, 2021 Author Share Posted March 24, 2021 Ok, yeah I've heard about balancing cells every so many charges. I end up charging closer to 90-95% more than I had hoped, just more distance before speed reductions. But you both are right; maybe I should try to let it sit on the charger and really get as close to 100 as it will let me more often than I do. I need to be more diligent about that. Messing up your battery is always a way to decrease EUC utility value and increase costs! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) My car was $2500 to purchase a decade ago. It costs me $400 a year to insure and $50 for tags. I probably invest about $200 a yr in tires and maintenance. It has carried me 200,000+ miles. Its also safer, able to carry things and works in inclement weather. There's too many variables about it all, to get a good idea of cpm in an euc or a car. Some people buy stupid expensive cars and ruin them in mere months. Others buy cheap euc's and make them last years.. I tend to agree with @DangerDan. Eucs in my area of the country are definitely NOT a safer or less expensive option for travel. My sherman cost me $3000+. I have had it for less than six months. It doesnt require being tagged(yet, but its coming of course), but i seriously doubt it will last 400,000 miles like my car already has. Do i get to add in the safety gear and injuries as costs on an euc? Im guessing my euc's will severely outweigh my cars in cost per mile, reliability and useability. For me, the euc is mostly a toy and to consider it an actual vehicle, I would have to drive somewhere THEN use the euc. As a vehicle, the euc cant even safely get me to town or ANY buisness', and thats in fair weather. I have yet yo convince the wife to hop on the euc with me so we can ride an hour to a resturant. Does the value of each mile get to be factored, as the value of a mile that doesnt allow me to go over 50mph or carry much, is much less. Of course, the value of a mile on an euc, may be worth MUCH more, if im focusing on joy rather than actual mobility. Edited March 24, 2021 by ShanesPlanet 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chriull Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 7 minutes ago, PatrickD said: But you both are right; maybe I should try to let it sit on the charger and really get as close to 100 as it will let me more often than I do. Getting close to 100 whilst charging gains nothing - once the app shows 100% balancing is soon to begin! From what i (we) know by now balancing only works sufficiently if one charges the pack until charge current drops to about 60 mA per paralleled cell ("should" be very very cery roughly about circa once the led changes to green) 7 minutes ago, PatrickD said: I need to be more diligent about that. Messing up your battery is always a way to decrease EUC utility value and increase costs! There are other ways to please the battery, if one likes to. Like you already posted do not discharge the pack to low - and don't burden the pack at low percentages. Chances exist that not so good cells are beaten to out of spec low voltages by this. And reduce time battery is fully charged - do some 80-90% charge and the full charge some time just before the ride. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie888 Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 @coneconesWhile I appreciate the cost analysis, comparing a V8f to a BMW X3 (or any auto for that matter) is moot IMO. One is 1 person ltd range PEV while the other is a 5person all weather all year vehicle. A more apt comparo would be the V8f vs 50cc gas scooter while a higher end Sherm arguably could be compared to something like the Honda 125 Trail. I bet the cost per km/mile would be much more competitive. Each type have their pros&cons which further blurs the equation. IMO as a personal 1 man short range commuter, the EUC might be King but only under specific parameters. For purely recreational, its always gonna be YMMV. For some, taking a Honda 125 Monkey offroad is as much fun if not more than a MSP/RS or even a Surron. Infact one can argue the Monkey is way more practical with a wayy longer lifespan. One can easily expect a 10yr 50+k mile life expectancy from a 125 Trail/Monkey but one would likely have to own multiples of an equivalent PEV to achieve similar so that also must be taken into the overall cost of ownership, wouldn't you say. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conecones Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 28 minutes ago, Scottie888 said: @coneconesWhile I appreciate the cost analysis, comparing a V8f to a BMW X3 (or any auto for that matter) is moot IMO. One is 1 person ltd range PEV while the other is a 5person all weather all year vehicle. A more apt comparo would be the V8f vs 50cc gas scooter while a higher end Sherm arguably could be compared to something like the Honda 125 Trail. I bet the cost per km/mile would be much more competitive. Each type have their pros&cons which further blurs the equation. IMO as a personal 1 man short range commuter, the EUC might be King but only under specific parameters. For purely recreational, its always gonna be YMMV. For some, taking a Honda 125 Monkey offroad is as much fun if not more than a MSP/RS or even a Surron. Infact one can argue the Monkey is way more practical with a wayy longer lifespan. One can easily expect a 10yr 50+k mile life expectancy from a 125 Trail/Monkey but one would likely have to own multiples of an equivalent PEV to achieve similar so that also must be taken into the overall cost of ownership, wouldn't you say. The car comparison was made as a reference to the OP and my personal living situation (Condo with 1 parking spot, both working downtown 15km away). I could have gotten a beater Corolla as a second vehicle which would lower depreciation and maintenance cost, but its the insurance that's the real hit to the wallet. I commute on a shared walk/bike path through a ravine system (totally separate from any vehicle traffic) for 70% of the route. IMO its safer to ride the EUC on the shared path for 70% of the way than ride a motorcycle on the city highways. If the commute was much greater than 15kms each way and its not possible to link public transit on the route, then a motorcycle/car would make more sense. I'm not implying that the EUC can replace the car as a primary vehicle, but rather it's a great alternative to a second vehicle if your work/living situation suits it and if there is good parks/cycling path infrastructure to make commuting safe. Replacing my second car has been hugely beneficial for me personally. I imagine this would apply to many people living in larger cities with a moderate commute into downtown areas. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WI_Hedgehog Posted March 24, 2021 Share Posted March 24, 2021 (edited) I drove a Honda PCX 150 ($4,500 USD) which in theory does 68 MPH = 110 KPH, but under normal use (not full-throttle but close) was more like 53 MPH = 85 KPH. Being gentle with it gave 110 MPG = 47 kpl, though normally 102 MPG = 43 kpl. It was also cheap to insure, and obviously did freeway speeds, although uncomfortably so because normal traffic goes much faster (illegally, which is common in many parts of the U.S.A.). For a scooter it was very fast and convenient though not fun to ride, comparable to a $50 Chinese hoverboard. I also rode a hopped-up hoverboard that easily sustained 12 MPH for 12 miles, which is awesome for short trips to the store, getting around town from free parking to a destination, etc. It's far more fun than a scooter. So far it's cost me $0.70/mile, as compared to the scooter at $1.00/mile. Both are about equal regarding weather, cost, utility, and functionality to a large degree. The determining factor is which tool (vehicle) is right for the job? In a dense city where parking is at a premium, an EUC can outpace a scooter, and unlike a bicycle can be parked under a table or desk (and not stolen). Insurance is far cheaper than a motorized vehicle, there's no parking space to rent, and maintenance can be done in your apartment. In this case an EUC can save a lot of money (and time!). An EUC is probably not good for traveling long distance, for formal occasions/events, or in inclement weather. An EUC may offset the cost of driving a motorized vehicle though possibly not save much money. The hoverboard saves me $20 city parking per trip, but costs an additional 30 minutes in travel time (plus I had to buy the hoverboard). I save nothing though do have more fun. Because of my commute and job, an Internal Combustion Engine SUV makes sense. I also like to have fun (and save on parking, plus cruise the lakefront), so throw the hoverboard in the back of the SUV. What makes sense for you is dependent on what you want in life. I bought a wheel which should make more sense than a hoverboard for commuting. Little did I know a prior injury would prevent me from riding it, but progress is being made daily in that regard. Edited March 24, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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