UKJ Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 @Jason McNeil So sorry for your pain, hope you recover quick to keep all the great info flowing! I have a strong feeling that even if most do not and never will know all your "behind the scenes" testing and information sharing, that this has and will continue to make our pastime better and most notably safer. Those in the know understand that EUC history has a good place for you! And not to jump on the band wagon, but any and all communication that I have ever had with Jason was always wise and as honest as one can be IMHO! Wrist guards............. Happy Hoildays! ukj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 It looks like you should have had Peter over to do your test riding after all@Jason McNeil The hand injuries look all too familiar to me, any bruising or other injuries? Best wishes for a fast recovery and hope you can still get a grip on a glass or two over Christmas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 8 hours ago, John Eucist said: Has anyone successfully "run off" a euc at around 25 km/h for whatever reason? Just wondering if it's the "unexpected" factor that causes the inability to run off or is 25 km/h just too darn fast to run off in the case of a motor shut down? I believe Jason has video of my son Peter successfully running off multiple full speed failures on the mcmv2s+ earlier this year when we were comparing it to the first batch of KS 800w wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BPINE Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Wow Jason real sorry to see this I hope the best for your healing process but man a simple set of hillbilly skate board gloves would have prevented all this pain. I never thought I would be that safety crazy guy on the forums but I just can't believe the lack of it on these EUC's when we know there is a possibility of problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edwin_rm Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 From what I've read, it looks like there are max speed irregularities between different MCM4s. They max out at slightly different speed from each others. Clearly Gotway has some major quality control issues. They still haven't even fixed their inacurate app speed reading, after 2 years. Unaceptable. After my faceplant last November I never ride while the machine is beeping anymore. It becomes unpredictable at that point. Always better to ride at a speed under the beeping threshold. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
castShadow Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 When I am going to be riding with other folks which unfortunately isn't that often, but when I do I always need to make a decision which wheel to ride. The main concern is having an appropriate match up with what the others are riding or what type of outing it is going to be, for example long range or fast ride, etc. If riders are riding with mismatched EU's what happens is the faster one will always egg on the slower one, it's unavoidable. And the slower wheel/rider will always try to keep up with the faster one even at risk of their own safety. Let's say this, the MCM4 was a mismatch to the KS14 in this ride. "The strong always takes responsibility for the weaker" -cs This means the faster more experienced skier does not collide with beginners. The strong does not jostle the weak and knock them down. The faster rider slows down for the slower rider for their safety if for nothing else, even if the other is "slow as piss." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gimlet Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I don't think anyone would describe Jason as either a weak or inexperienced rider and supposedly the wheels should be reasonably well matched, at least as matched as any two wheels from different manufacturers can be. The older mcmv2s+ and the KS 800w had almost identical performance when we tested them. Only difference was the KS tilted back at max speed whereas the Gotway just carried on to its fail point. Gotway have supposedly included tilt back now and upped the motor power to cope with it on the mcm4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Thanks everyone for your kind words Maybe my assessment of the MCM4 is wrong & I received a wonky Wheel. What I don't understand is that (as Gimlet said) the older MCM2 had a considerably higher cut-out speeds than GW's new flagship product (QC tag is only 3 weeks old), which was in development for months. How can you make a Wheel slower, with less power safety margin than the previous generation?! I'm not trying to denigrate the brand, the MSuper is of course a much safer Wheel & GW were the first to introduce many firsts, but from my painful experience, they need to improve the safety of this model. The irony is that because my knees were also bashed up, I'm more dependent on the Wheel than ever for getting around. Obvious conclusion people draw when they see me bandaged up is that it is the Wheel that I'm riding (or even worse, the irresponsible rider!) is intrinsically unsafe. I've been riding for nearly 2.5 years & although the early IPSs had a much lower cut-out threshold, the speed was sufficiently low that running off was a certainty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranium Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 8 minutes ago, Jason McNeil said: How can you make a Wheel slower, with less power safety margin than the previous generation? You were asking this fetiously, right? Hope you heal up fast Jason! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason McNeil Posted December 24, 2015 Author Share Posted December 24, 2015 Just now, Cranium said: You were asking this fetiously, right? Thanks, until the cut-out, had every expectation that this model would be an improvement on the previous generation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 Is this the HS model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 4 hours ago, BPINE said: [...] but man a simple set of hillbilly skate board gloves would have prevented all this pain. Great suggestion. I am pretty sure this comes as a surprising insight to many of us, including @Jason McNeil. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colestien Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 I know I'm just echoing the thoughts of others but....... Hope you heal fast, and thank you for your work in helping this sport be safe. With you being "out in it" your input will have a high impact on this sport. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
viti Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 @Jason McNeil best wishes for a quick healing ... Thanks especially for sharing the pic. A good reminder for me to always wear protection. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h00ktern Posted December 24, 2015 Share Posted December 24, 2015 4 hours ago, castShadow said: When I am going to be riding with other folks which unfortunately isn't that often, but when I do I always need to make a decision which wheel to ride. The main concern is having an appropriate match up with what the others are riding or what type of outing it is going to be, for example long range or fast ride, etc. If riders are riding with mismatched EU's what happens is the faster one will always egg on the slower one, it's unavoidable. And the slower wheel/rider will always try to keep up with the faster one even at risk of their own safety. Let's say this, the MCM4 was a mismatch to the KS14 in this ride. "The strong always takes responsibility for the weaker" -cs This means the faster more experienced skier does not collide with beginners. The strong does not jostle the weak and knock them down. The faster rider slows down for the slower rider for their safety if for nothing else, even if the other is "slow as piss." I was about to rep you on this, until I finished reading it. Your post does not illustrate what occurred... and I take exception to that. I will state that I agree 100% with your philosophy, and in its own thread, or contextually in another thread, I wouldn't be writing this... As stated earlier, this was not a race between EUs. it was an endurance test. Your post makes it sound as if Jason was trying to keep up, because I was ripping him on the KS. He is far wiser, intelligent, and mature than your description leads casual readers to believe. You also quoted me out of context. For the record: We completed one "lap" of the public park to determine the distance. We were going to stop at predetermined "laps" to connect to the EUs and record state of charge. Neither of us had the ability to stay connected to the respective EUs while riding (cell phones) - Jason brought an iPad that would connect to both. We didn't ride with the iPad setting on a tray hanging around our neck while riding. We did not discuss the speed inequalities of the two EUs. Sometimes you don't discuss such obvious things. Maybe we should have agreed the KS was faster than the GW. We could have also agreed the sun was overhead, or that we would ride single file when cars approached from the rear... . It was obvious, and we didn't feel the need to.. Jason took the lead, and I followed behind him for 75% of the laps; the other 20% was beside him so we could chat. I was in front of Jason for less than a total of five minutes - because he wanted to film something other than empty road ahead of him @John Eucist asked about running off. In this instance, I don't see how anyone could have had the reflexes of a cat. I was beside him chatting, and the next millisecond, he was airborne, doing an excellent Superman impression . He was there beside me, then he was horizontal with his hands out in front. Neither he nor I can defend the lack of using any protective gear. Everyone who has mentioned that thus far has not been challenged by either of us. Most things can be attributed to a chain of events. Neither one of us has given any excuses. That said, I finished off the battery of the KS, and rode down the MSuper2 later that night - without using protection. Stuff happens, and if you suffer the consequences of your choice, without affecting someone else, well...that's freedom of choice. And to qualify the previous, reread my original heated reply, and you will find that I mentioned the use of racing leathers in a cut-off test. My assumption of risk is different than others. Not better, just different. Finally, to end the diatribe, when I wrote "slow as piss" - that was my choice of rabid words, and my perception of the speed we were traveling when the GW gave up the ghost. If I had been riding the MCM4, I would not have felt that our speed was dangerous. In fact, while following and pacing Jason, I felt it was a slower speed that I ride at night, using only the light from the headlamp of the KS14C. Wait, I wrote that before, in the context of those rabid words I did not say, nor do I believe that any rider has to ride at some set speed. The past three weeks that I have ridden with Jason, and others, no one has had issue with either slower riders, or slower EUs. I will hope that they read this and speak up, for no other reason than to vanquish your insinuation that Jason was led into the lower corner of a box. Respectfully, and no offense intended. Safe trips Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 @Jason McNeil, what Wh battery was this model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nevin@Tec-toyz.com Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 On December 24, 2015 at 4:22 PM, Cloud said: @Jason McNeil, i am very sorry to hear about the nasty fall. Looking at those pics makes me want to wear wrist guards, which i havent been. Hope you can get better soon the downfall of the wheels is there is no safety based on the redundancy in eucs. Only 1 tire, 1 motor, and any fault be it electrical or mechanical or any other will cause a fall. Its good to keep track of these accounts of the wheels cutting out so that the design can be perfected and people are forewarned no wheel is totally safe for that matter - there have been a few reports of kingsong cutting out too, sadly. Just watched the video...why was the wheel beeping like crazy though? It sounds like it was saying : slow down? Should this beep be on at 25kph? So, true @Cloud, totally agree! So far every wheel that I got to try has issues, even the kingsong. But I am noticing all brands,not just the generics, have major QA issues! Resellers should be checking each wheel before shipping them out to customers. They should also demand manufacturers to get with on the nonexistent QA. There needs to also be a better way that we can test the limits of each wheel with different rider weights to see if the cut off cuts out at earlier speeds if you weigh more. To what I know, Gotway has resolved the BMS issues with the mcm2s on. Also, you can't turn off the last beeps, only first and second warnings can be turned off. If that wheel is beeping at you, you should slow down. If your doing crazy speed tests, at least where your helmet, wrist guards, elbow and knee pads. It will save you some lost of skin and that horrible recovery time. Get well soon @Jason McNeil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
csmyers Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 On 12/24/2015 at 9:26 PM, John Eucist said: Has anyone successfully "run off" a euc at around 25 km/h for whatever reason? Just wondering if it's the "unexpected" factor that causes the inability to run off or is 25 km/h just too darn fast to run off in the case of a motor shut down? I wasn't checking the app but feel like I was close to 25km/h on my IPS Zero when I overleaned accelerating uphill. EDIT: Watching the video in slomo shows my foot touched the ground but my forward momentum carried my upper body over. So my right foot touched down, then my right arm/shoulder hit the ground as I curled up. After I rolled across from my right shoulder blade to my left hip, I used my left leg as a lever to disperse my momentum and turn horizontal momentum into upwards momentum so I could stand up. Of course I didn't actively think of these steps, but I've trained my muscle memory to do this. I have a couple years of experience falling off skateboards at high speeds (downhill longboarding) so I've practiced the art of falling. I would suggest everyone do the same... Video is terrible quality and it cuts out before I am able to get up, but you can see in the last frame that I'm basically already up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_svdD0f1reE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Eucist Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 5 hours ago, csmyers said: I wasn't checking the app but feel like I was close to 25km/h on my IPS Zero when I overleaned accelerating uphill. I managed to take two steps before I decided I couldn't do it and I did a barrel roll on the ground. I have a couple years of experience falling off skateboards at high speeds (downhill longboarding) so I've practiced the art of falling. I would suggest everyone do the same... Video is terrible quality and it cuts out before I am able to get up, but you can see in the last frame that I'm basically already up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_svdD0f1reE Thanks for sharing that video. It didn't look uphill though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
electric_vehicle_lover Posted December 25, 2015 Share Posted December 25, 2015 I am interested on Gotway wheels because MicroWorks produce their boards and also almost similar boards to KingSong. We can buy the boards, the motor, batteries, everything in pieces from MicroWorks online shop. Since we are doing our own OpenSource firmware, we will define and understand how the system works!! It should behave as we define/program it and everyone will be able to inspect the source code and alert for any possible error/danger. I don't know if MicroWorks/Gotway or KingSong have a development team - maybe this companies buy firmware and boards design to IPS since the circuits are very similar between all their EUCs. Maybe this companies pay less money for a low quality firmware with some bugs that aren't corrected..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 18 hours ago, electric_vehicle_lover said: I am interested on Gotway wheels because MicroWorks produce their boards and also almost similar boards to KingSong. We can buy the boards, the motor, batteries, everything in pieces from MicroWorks online shop. Since we are doing our own OpenSource firmware, we will define and understand how the system works!! It should behave as we define/program it and everyone will be able to inspect the source code and alert for any possible error/danger. I don't know if MicroWorks/Gotway or KingSong have a development team - maybe this companies buy firmware and boards design to IPS since the circuits are very similar between all their EUCs. Maybe this companies pay less money for a low quality firmware with some bugs that aren't corrected..... Micro Works Board is similar but not the same Did someone get a statement from @Jane Mo regatding this issue (faulty unit, "feature limitation")? I had in mind to switch my wife from a KS16 she wants to have to a MCM4 and I like to have a MSuper. Safety is a major concern for me and my wife, We don't need 30 km/h speed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mono Posted December 26, 2015 Share Posted December 26, 2015 If I understand the incident correctly, it happened while the wheel issued the known signal for the last, most urgent, speed / load warning for seconds. If I am wrong, forget the reminder of the post, otherwise this aspect solicits a few thoughts: A wheel should never cut off by design, ever. Never. Ever. While the observed behavior is known for (old) Gotway's, the disappointment is that it didn't change. Maybe (hopefully), this was a (beta-)wheel with outdated software? EDIT: even my >6 months old MCM2s does apparently already have some sort of tilt feature. It seems not advisable to ignore safety/speed warnings. Even though the warning didn't match the (expected) speed specification of the wheel, it seems rather unsafe to ignore any but the first warning level. When I hear this last warning it scares the hell out of me and I immediately slow down. From hindsight, the top single advise to prevent such an accident and the subsequent injuries should not be wear protective gear, it should be don't ignore speed warnings. Why doesn't this MCM4 meet the expected specifications? On a general note, I would love to see more people talking about active safety (i.e. accident prevention), instead of the application of passive safety measures (i.e. injury prevention, given an accident happens). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nono Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 I wanted to know the feed-back from people who have rode the MCM4 High speed version http://www.hostingpics.net/viewer.php?id=408920IMG2918.jpg what is the new specs ? they fixed the pedals problem. What about the real High speed ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tomek Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 On 12/25/2015 at 7:22 PM, electric_vehicle_lover said: I don't know if MicroWorks/Gotway or KingSong have a development team - maybe this companies buy firmware and boards design to IPS since the circuits are very similar between all their EUCs. Maybe this companies pay less money for a low quality firmware with some bugs that aren't corrected..... Microworks doesn't sell the MCM4 motors or controllers (I've specifically enquired). They only offer what looks like MCM2s boards+motors (500W), while they do sell assembled MCM4s 340Wh. Also, from what I recall seeing on pictures, KS controller boards look quite different from the Gotway ones - as I understand, only early KS models were copies of Gotways. btw. I've also enquired with Jane Mo about buying just the MCM4 motor + controller for my DIY unicycle project and waiting for a quote... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OliverH Posted December 27, 2015 Share Posted December 27, 2015 17 minutes ago, Tomek said: Microworks doesn't sell the MCM4 motors or controllers (I've specifically enquired). They only offer what looks like MCM2s boards+motors (500W), while they do sell assembled MCM4s 340Wh. Also, from what I recall seeing on pictures, KS controller boards look quite different from the Gotway ones - as I understand, only early KS models were copies of Gotways. btw. I've also enquired with Jane Mo about buying just the MCM4 motor + controller for my DIY unicycle project and waiting for a quote... The parts will be not available "we've nothing in stock you request". You need to order it via your dealer separately. I've bee there before. They know that the DIY projects will kill their business. But they don't listen to market demands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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