How much do batteries age when just sitting there?

[AtlasP]

Split off from here.

A guy is selling a 100V MSX and has only 10 miles on it. But it is 1.5 years old. Are the batteries ok when they have just been sitting there, but presumably always at a good voltage? How much did they or did they not age?

Edited March 16, 2021 by AtlasP

[Ben Kim]

23 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Your pictures don't show Maybe missing permissions for the public to see them? See here:

Too bad you never got the hang of it (why not give it another chance?).

What is the battery size? People will want to know.

Good luck with the sale (or better: not selling it and riding it). You'll probably have to reduce the price a bit, wheels depreciate fast.

a bit? that wheel is 3 years old, assuming it is 100% mint he’s still 500 off as a starting point. 

[WI_Hedgehog]

The quality was better back then, if anything it's more valuable... 

[AtlasP]

21 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

a bit? that wheel is 3 years old, assuming it is 100% mint he’s still 500 off as a starting point. 

I think that's a bit harsh. Irrelevant of model age, it's likely only ~18-24 months since manufacture with basically no mileage, 1600Wh, 2000W motor--those are still $2k specs for a new wheel today and I think he can probably get $1500-1600 for it, so starting at $1800 and having some room to accept counter-offers is fairly reasonable.

Someone in the market for a new V10F or Tesla V2 or 18XL or 84v Nikola or even an RS right now (given its current debacle) would do pretty well to pick something like this up for $1600. (Compared to spending $1500-2k on those other wheels new.)

Edited March 11, 2021 by AtlasP

[Ben Kim]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

I think that's harsh. Irrelevant of model age, it's likely only ~18-24 months since manufacture with basically no mileage, 1600Wh, 2000W motor--those are still $2k specs for a new wheel today and I think he can probably get $1500-1600 for it, so starting at $1800 and having some room to accept counter-offers is fairly reasonable.

Someone in the market for a new V10F or Tesla V2 or 18XL or 84v Nikola or even an RS right now (given its current debacle) would do pretty well to pick something like this up for $1600. (Compared to spending $1500-2k on those other wheels new.)

You do know what happens to batteries as they age, regardless of if the wheel was ridden or not, right? Plus no warranty, plus getting parts for an old wheel is pretty hard, plus other factors.  Those NEW wheels all would come with a 1 year warranty at full price.  That's the difference.  

[AtlasP]

17 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

You do know what happens to batteries as they age, regardless of if the wheel was ridden or not, right? Plus no warranty, plus getting parts for an old wheel is pretty hard, plus other factors.  Those NEW wheels all would come with a 1 year warranty at full price.  That's the difference.  

1. Yes, yes, battery degradation, the EUC community's overstated boogeyman. Except it tends to level out after losing 20% or something (which it would be nowhere near yet by this age, and likely wouldn't hit before a next owner would be looking to upgrade again), which means such a wheel would still have more battery capacity than a brand new V10F or Tesla V2, so still a better buy for the same money. And honestly 1600-1800 Wh even minus 20% still meets or exceeds the range needs of over 90+% of riders according to EUC World stats.
2. RE warranty, it's no more risky than people buying wheels off Aliexpress to save a few bucks. Hell likely still much safer, since even though it's out of warranty, I bet Jason would still be more helpful (even if it cost you a little something) in such a scenario than if someone had a problem with an Aliexpress purchase.

I absolutely stand by my original statement. These counter-arguments are strawmen.

Edited March 11, 2021 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

Note how it is cycles, not age. The ten miles this wheel has is not even one cycle.

Not sure what a (presumably mint condition) 100V MSX should sell for. Depending whether it's 1230Wh or 1860Wh, I'd guess... somewhere between $1000 and $1400? I have no idea.

[AtlasP]

56 minutes ago, null said:

I'd be interested in a source to that statement, most if not all degradation curves I've seen take a dive after passing their specced limit.

As meep indicated, I read there's a difference between degradation due to mere age (like a cell sitting on a shelf before being sold, or in this case sitting in an unused device) and degradation due to cycles. Obviously with cycles it can degrade to oblivion. But since this wheel is within its first (one) cycle, the only degradation that would matter would be due to age/general shelf life, and in that regard I thought I read that you're only looking at losing maybe 20% if a cell is a few years too old (between manufacture and use). Sorry I don't have a source right now, on mobile, but I can try to look one up later when I get to a proper computer (if no one else has one).

[WI_Hedgehog]

The cells have to be charged periodically, and eventually balanced. Otherwise they die a cold death. 

I've heard they lose 20% capacity the first year, 10% per year after that. (R/C forums) 

[meepmeepmayer]

3 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

The cells have to be charged periodically

As long as the voltage is good (= not empty or full), is there actually a problem when the cells are unused? Does something happen on its own?

3 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

and eventually balanced

Unbalanced cells are a problem when discharging. Because then they are stressed unevenly. Is there a problem when cells are unbalanced but not used? All that is needed is a full charge that balances them.

3 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

I've heard they lose 20% capacity the first year, 10% per year after that. (R/C forums) 

I don't know, but I find this hard to believe. But I don't know.

Anyways, lots of questions but no definitive answers (here).

-

Personally, I would not worry about a battery that has sat unused at a good voltage/charge state as long as it charges to full.

[WI_Hedgehog]

The batteries do age/degrade, especially if stored at full charge.

Because of mass-manufacturing cells are not all the same off the production line and therefore will require balancing at some point, though probably not for 5 years or so in storage conditions as they're all "close enough." 

If cells drop below 3.00V there could be an irreversable chemical change and they stay dead--that's the big concern, which is why charging every 3 to 6 months is important and balancing becomes a need at some point. So the real concern is if any of the cells went flat during storage, as they'll be compromised permanently. (I've seen cells go down to 2.85V and come back to life after a very slow recovery charge.) 

As you ( @meepmeepmayer ) point out, if the EUC takes and holds a full charge there's a strong probability the pack is in great shape with no real issues.

[Denny Paul]

I feel bad for the original poster just trying to sell his wheel...

[meepmeepmayer]

10 hours ago, Denny Paul said:

I feel bad for the original poster just trying to sell his wheel...

You're right, it got too much. Split off into its own topic.

[AtlasP]

On 3/13/2021 at 6:26 PM, Denny Paul said:

I feel bad for the original poster just trying to sell his wheel...

That's kinda where I was coming from when I was defending the original poster and calling out the "$500 too expensive" comment as way too harsh.