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We've all seen it, what you're told before the sale doesn't quite match the product you own after the sale. Maybe the Engineers stretch the truth a little in their reports to Management, and Management does some creative rounding for the presentation to the Board, and the Marketing department lives on a whole different planet. When does it become a lie?

I deal with "cheap shit from China" on a daily basis, and they've made exaggeration an art form. Look at the range estimates for EUCs and you know what I mean. People have guessed the Chinese find the lightest person around, have them putter along on an EUC on flat, paved roads, and then market that to their main consumer: The U.S. In my experience that's not exactly how it's done.

"It's not a lie if it's mostly true," or at least such is my observation when dealing with the Chinese culture. 51% true is mostly true, so if a company exaggerates a maximum of 49%, most of what they're telling you is true. Since they have a reputation to protect, you can figure a reputable businessman will leave himself a safety margin and exaggerate less than 49%. In other words: 48%.

This seems to reasonably represent where expectations should lie; if a company says their EUC range is 100 miles, figure the average American can go 52 miles before the EUC battery calls it quits. If the industry standard for lithium battery life is 500 full charges, figure you'll get 260 charges (52%) before the battery capacity is 80% of original.

Reputable Chinese companies are pretty consistent in my experience, so you know what you're going to get. American companies--not so much; they tend to build a reputation for high-quality products and then suddenly "cash in" on their reputation and make "junk" while still charging high prices until their company reputation is ruined.

So with Chinese products, if you set your expectations to half of what the product is marketed as, you and the seller should both be happy. 

Edited by WI_Hedgehog
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It's only lying about half the time... Just as I tend to be right all the times, cept the times I'm not. Is knowingly being deceptive, while being 51% accurate, count as a lie? Webster defines it quite simply, so your real answer is 'most of the time'.

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On 2/19/2021 at 3:50 AM, WI_Hedgehog said:

if a company says their EUC range is 100 miles, figure the average American can go 52 miles before the EUC battery calls it quits.

They'll definitely do the testing on a flat road. The speed they test at will usually be given - keep in mind that the wind resistance goes up by the square of the speed (or something like that) so they're not going to ride at top speed (I think they test at around 15 mph?). If you're carving from side to side then your range will also drop. If it's cold the range will also drop (Feb in Wisconsin?). Tyre pressure also makes a difference but the real elephant in the room though (if you'll pardon the expression) is the size of the average American. Testing for distance is done with a 70Kg rider but Americans have a reputation for being a "little" bit above this.

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5 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

keep in mind that the wind resistance goes up by the square of the speed (or something like that)

The POWER required to overcome wind resistance goes up by the cube of your speed. 2x the speed requires 8x the power to conquer the wind, so of course you won't run a range test at high speed!

one of many references, says a cyclist spends 85% of their power pushing the air out of the way at 32 kph: https://tunedintocycling.com/2014/06/28/aerodynamics-part-1-air-resistance/

Edited by Tawpie
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On 2/18/2021 at 9:50 PM, WI_Hedgehog said:

When does it become a lie?

You are actually asking a moral question here because this type of question is personal.

I've always hated the saying, "it's not personal, it's business".  Buldak!  Anything done in the name of business directly affects another in a very personal way.

A lie is a lie when the person giving the information knows what is right & chooses to give false information.

I think this is why many companies separate their people; engineers from marketing, designers from sales, etc. to keep what they (the leaders of the company) know is right from those who directly influence the public.  That way the salesman or the marketer doesn't know the whole truth & can't disclose it to the public.

There's a pride involved in lying if you think about it.  A humble person has no reason to lie, they accept the consequences of their choice.  They are learning if you will, like a little child.  But the proud need to lie to keep face, to keep their reputation.

On a more personal level, how often do we lie in order to not offend someone we love?  How can you put a percentage on that?

Edited by Hangman
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  • 4 weeks later...
Posted (edited)

In the InMotion v12 thread we got onto the subject of quality. Obviously Gotway has a "reputation," the most recent battery issues are one of many examples, but they're not the only company with reliability concerns. With EUC prices going over $3,000 USD and speeds over 35 MPH (55 KPH) I think one should understand what to expect. This video lays it out--play it in the background and glance over when something interesting catches your attention--it will hopefully broaden your understanding of why Chinese manufacturing practices are the way they are, and why wheels (and lots of other things made in China) are "affordable."

 

Edited by WI_Hedgehog
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On 2/22/2021 at 7:06 AM, mike_bike_kite said:

The Sherman is supposed to have a range of 100 miles so I looked on YT and found this ginger guy who weighs 95Kg and he recorded 113 miles before the battery gave out. 

From what I can tell there is no documentation regarding maximum rider speed or range other than what retailers calculated.

Leaperkim : Guangzhou Veteran Intelligent Technology Co., Ltd. : Sherman User Manual:

Veteran Sherman Users Manual.doc

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7 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

From what I can tell there is no documentation regarding maximum rider speed or range other than what retailers calculated.

Leaperkim : Guangzhou Veteran Intelligent Technology Co., Ltd. : Sherman User Manual:

Veteran Sherman Users Manual.doc 1.25 MB · 0 downloads

What's wrong with reading the info the retailers provide? At least that will be specific to the wheel you're buying rather than the manual which will just talk about generic details for the wheel. On the ewheels page for the Sherman and it clearly states 100 miles assuming a 170lb rider at 20mph.  

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That's the point in knowing what you're getting, the local distributor's page is often more accurate than the manufacturer's claims. (Not that a manufacturer saying "100 mile maximum range" is incorrect, rather the distributor saying "55 mile expected range" is more useful.)

If Gotway has battery fires, pinched wires, weak shells, and bearing problems, but also makes the fastest ECU at pretty reasonable prices, so be it. Gutter oil exists (seems used cells in some AliExpress EUCs do too), that doesn't mean some people don't mind eating it occasionally.  I'm saying if you plan on cruising at 35+ MPH, have reasonable expectations about what you're buying--maybe take the wheel apart and inspect everything before attempting a land speed record on it.

The song Mr. Almost (chabuduo) describes a way of life (turn on Closed-Captions and Settings-Auto Translate). If you're looking for a cheap, entry-level EUC "good enough" is probably good enough! If you're spending $2,000+ on a wheel that goes 35+ MPH for 45+ miles and plan to use that ability, uh, don't necessarily rely on build quality being 100%.

I often present the other side to Chinese manufacturing, which isn't necessarily bad--if you know what to expect and still want the product, both you and the seller will be happier. If you want quality, reliability and safety, buy from a manufacturer that focuses on it. If you want speed above all else, have reasonable expectations and gear up!

InMotion has focused on safety, quality, handling, and innovation; KingSong on over-all product value, Gotway/Begode on speed/power (definitely not quality), and Veteran on quality, range, speed, and durability (at the expense of weight and price).  I feel fortunate to have all these options!

While Gotway/Begode has again had battery issues and in very rough summary responded, "Eh, shit happens. Most of our stuff is safe," InMotion has developed more advanced Battery Management Systems:

 

Speaking of reasonable expectations:

 

In the end, understanding culture can be helpful. Despite politically-[in]correct brainwashing stating everyone is the same, we're not. Germans are known for incredible engineering, Japan for perfecting existing designs, Poland for 99.999% manufacturing excellence, China for mass volume production, the U.S. for...(see the following video) :lol:

 

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