New Rider Needs Advise: Inmotion V11 vs. Kingson s18

[Rich Sam]

I am in a full-blown love fest with my v11!  It fits the role I wanted perfectly, exceeded expectations in every way.  The one thing I don't like about the v11 is the wheel clearance design on the outer shell is too low.  It snags and hits stuff.  Looks like this is the trade-off to have the long MTB fork pistons running down the sides.

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

In my opinion:

If your main goal is off-road bliss, plan to look for super aggressive terrain.   I would go with the S18

If your main goal is super cush road riding, want enough range to keep up with your buds.  With a side of trail riding,  V11 is your thing

I would agree if the S18 “ergonomics” would fit more riders, and if both wheels were executed perfectly. But they aren’t.

For many riders though, having either suspension design is a must in order to fight riding fatigue or one from a long list of bodily issues that benefit from absorbing vibration and sharp shocks you simply can’t avoid in a non-suspension EUC. For those (us) riders, either suspension wheel is better than non-suspension, for any riding situation.

 And while the V11 shock doesn’t have a direct rebound dampening adjustment, increasing the negative chamber pressure (and positive as well to compensate) tightens up the suspension into anything from cushy to very tight. Definitely well enough to go off-roading head to head with the S18.

 On the other hand, all three S18 units I’ve ridden (all different batches) had lubed suspension poles, and two of them had had linkage work done. Yet they were all still very stiff, and barely doing anything at bumps smaller than shallow stairs. On one of them we even went through a huge range of shock pressures, and tried with riders from 70 to 105kg.

The system simply doesn’t seem to work without a complete linkage overhaul.

 And that is why I’m a broken record about bashing the S18, people really need to know what they are getting into. The S18 doesn’t offer what the complicated linkage system makes one think.

Edited February 21, 2021 by mrelwood

[WI_Hedgehog]

@ShanesPlanetI said way back when Kingsong subbed out their Fox shock for a knockoff that the suspension is going to be weak. There's no way a tiny mono shock can take a beating like that one does without being a quality part. And you bought one anyway. 

Who'd have thought InMotion was going to have bearing issues though? Runs counter to the company name... 

[Tasku]

Interesting topic. Not that I have these wheel but I been soo close to get one.

I been tempted with both wheels. After looking every detail I could find I feel V11 would win almost everything, expect the look of the wheel. That being said I can totally understand those who buy S18. Here be my silly thougts, totally feel free to disagree, just wanted to join the chatter anyway..

S18:

I feel like S18 is like that old Dodge Viper. Looks great but you do not have roof, rollcage turns out to be _not_a_roll_cage and there are no side windows. No airbags nor ,ABS or anything safety related! Speeding fast with S18 could cut it out or cause strong pedal dip, bit scary. I wonder if that still is a thing? Anyway Dodge Viper was just big engine and sleek metal to cover it on 4 wheels. The S18 has one wheel and big engine with small "range". Ideal case of use would be: If you drive a car to the woods, then go trailing and afterwards leave with car. Hey hold on I forgot that the S18 comes with street tire.. I mean why? Was it not supposed to be trailer? Well just change the wheel, rite no hassle?

V11:

The V11 would be something that has it all the fancy convenient stuff in it. Lots of software candy. The wheel seems to improve every batch too. So buy the latest batch. I would assume and make bet for getting parts for V11 is gonna be good for longer period of time. Final seal for the V11 is the range. It is better and it means more fun everyday base. In comparison you do not need the car to take you to the woods. You ride with V11 and leave with V11.

Edited February 21, 2021 by Tasku
(Funny fact: Also you had to open the door of the dodge viper from inside the car.)

[.....]

5 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

@ShanesPlanetI said way back when Kingsong subbed out their Fox shock for a knockoff that the suspension is going to be weak. There's no way a tiny mono shock can take a beating like that one does without being a quality part. And you bought one anyway. 

Who'd have thought InMotion was going to have bearing issues though? Runs counter to the company name... 

I was still new enough to make assumptions about testing of metals and integrity of parts during the R&D process. Same with bearings *cough cough*. I have matured since then. I should have listened more closely. Live and learn..

Edited February 21, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Chucka Wheelie]

9 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

 

V11 has VERY good dampening, I would say on par with my high-end MTB forks.  Demo version of the v11 did not have dampening, but I believe all shipping models have, I know my wheel does [3rd batch]

3rd batch is also supposed to have the hollow bearing things better... I don't have the issue, not sure if anyone else 3rd batch has it as well.

My V11 is the 3rd batch as well I believe and (knocking on wood as I type) I haven't had any issues with the bearings so far.  I've got just over 1300km's on the Odo and I have been caught in the rain a few times during my work commutes.  Fingers crossed this good fortune with the bearings continue. 

Now to the OP.  I know you've already ordered the V11 but I think you've made a good choice.  It's a great all-rounder and when I chose it, I wanted a wheel I could grow with.  At that time, I only had the real bare bones basics of riding an EUC.  The V11 caters for a wide variety of riders from beginners with basic riding experience right up to advance riders.  Now I have to admit the increased pedal height did play a big part in my early take off SNAFUs resulting in idiotic spills upon mount the wheel... Didn't think it would make such a big difference but it did.  Your mileage may very of course and it's something you can adjust to very quickly.  It's just a short adjustment period. 

Enjoy your stealthy black beauty and ride safe!

Oh, and make sure you play around with your suspension set up to your liking... Start with inMotion's suggestions then vary it to how it feels for you.  

[WI_Hedgehog]

9 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I was still new enough to make assumptions about testing of metals and integrity of parts during the R&D process. Same with bearings *cough cough*. I have matured since then. I should have listened more closely. Live and learn..

The good thing is the KingSong shock and InMotion bearings are probably both off-the-shelf parts in China (meaning cheap replacements). 

From my non-EUC Chinese bearing experience, cleaning all the cheap OEM lube off them and putting good lube in, then cleaning & lubing regularly generally makes them last a long time. 

On gas shocks (air pistons) I use 
Magnalube-G PTFE Grease
to keep quality air pistons in service. 

$3,000 for a Sherman though--and then the rim needs to be rolled to hold the tire. Eh, I'll wait until Veteran figures out a suspension and OTA updates. They have the "plastic does not explode in crash" thing managed, their second EUC ought to smack it out of the park. I think for the next 5 years they're going to be the force to be reckoned with if they keep it together long enough up front.

Edited February 21, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog

[Rich Sam]

13 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 On the other hand, all three S18 units I’ve ridden (all different batches) had lubed suspension poles, and two of them had had linkage work done. Yet they were all still very stiff, and barely doing anything at bumps smaller than shallow stairs. On one of them we even went through a huge range of shock pressures, and tried with riders from 70 to 105kg.

 

I don't know what the "feel" was that the engineers were shooting for on the s18 but I can say MTB bikes that used the rear shocks looked for linkage angles that only reacted with a certain amount of force.  This was done on purpose to have the bike not experience "pedal bob" while pedaling and also not have the bike feel quite like a pogo stick on little bumps.  Which can quickly bottom you out if you encounter multiple bumps concurrently with dampening.

[Rich Sam]

14 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

I am in a full-blown love fest with my v11!  It fits the role I wanted perfectly, exceeded expectations in every way.  The one thing I don't like about the v11 is the wheel clearance design on the outer shell is too low.  It snags and hits stuff.  Looks like this is the trade-off to have the long MTB fork pistons running down the sides.

This is the wheel clearance I was talking about.  If this was gone or about 2-3 inches higher it would not be such a deal

[Unventor]

So another 2cent. 

I don't really understand why people keep comparing the S18 vs V11 as they are very different wheels built for 2 different main use. 

Both wheels will have riders biased to one or the other. And then there are those that don't value suspension that will tell you neither is any good or worth the money. 

As my signatur says I ride a V11. I have not tested a S18. But how you can have a motor that the battery cannot keep up with on spike demands is not great and I doubt there will be a fix for that on the S18. But that said let's move on. 

I can share the good and bad of the V11. 

Let's start with the bad. So have bearing problems but not all do. It is a bit more work to service the wheel but once you seen the inside it isn't that bad. I would wish screws were stronger (some might say better quality but I will get back to that). I think that is about it on the hardware side. 

On the firmware a new version is coming soon. It will change more or less all things the community had raised to what most people wanted. 

I do not view the V11 as a starter wheel. It has to do with pedal height. When learning you are battling with balance and confidence. High pedals is not you friend in the start, it comes later then you will appreciate it. 

Now a out screws. It is a tradeoff what to use. First thought would say hard stainless steel screws would be better. But that is not necessarily the case as they are normally brittle. Another thing that would be better is to avoid the Philips head screws. 

So what about the good sides? Once you expireance suspension when something cought you off suprise that is when realise why this is the big innovation you rather not miss out on. Now the V11 is not best in class at anything but it is top performer it most things it do which leads to why I like it so much. It is a good balanced package that can suit most people 90% of the time (I didn't say all 😉). 

That said I do hope both Inmotion and Kingsong can fix the things their customer have as problems with both V11 and S18. This is still a young business that is moving forward at an insane pace. 

It is going to be interesting to see what next battery improvement can do for EUC. An example could be solid state battery. 

[Rotan]

I'm in a similar situation as the OP, I like the idea of s18 cos it's lighter and looks better, but if it's so messy... well, I'm not a modder and I want something ready to use at its best right away when it's delivered.

My worries regarding the v11: On latest batch, is the bearing situation improved? Can I lower the pedals if I find them too high?

Also... it's a very heavy wheel, will I still be able to maneuver it even among the people in situations where I need to go very slow? I do it perfectly with my 14d, will it still be possible?

[mrelwood]

4 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

I don't know what the "feel" was that the engineers were shooting for on the s18

The “feel” consists of joints that drag metal on metal and bearings not doing their jobs, and some units have bearings not pressed in straight, spring washers destroying bearings etc. The “feel” consists of several aspects that the design was clearly not meant for. It’s just a full shitshow about everything wrongly put together.

 When we started working with my friend’s S18, it took two full grown men to pull the suspension travel end to end, despite having the shock already detached. I can bet my life that it wasn’t designed to work like that.

2 hours ago, Rotan said:

I'm in a similar situation as the OP, I like the idea of s18 cos it's lighter

25kg vs 27kg is too small a difference to matter at all.

2 hours ago, Rotan said:

My worries regarding the v11: On latest batch, is the bearing situation improved? Can I lower the pedals if I find them too high?

Nobody knows the failure rate for either the 6816 Z, 6816 RS, or 6916 RS bearings that Inmotion has gone through. But every version has had some bearing issues. Regarding to Ewheels though, less than 5% of their sold units have been reported having bearing issues.

2 hours ago, Rotan said:

Also... it's a very heavy wheel, will I still be able to maneuver it even among the people in situations where I need to go very slow?

Oh, absolutely! It’s an easy wheel to ride slow, turn tight, and reverse. Much more so than a 22kg 18L. The EUC’s weight doesn’t hinder agility much at all, and any 3” wide tire is good for tight turns. Doing a 180 on a narrow road is also waaay easier on the V11 than on the S18, since the S18 doesn’t have room to tilt, which the V11 has in spades.

A local rider was afraid of the same thing, 18” EUCs being difficult to maneuver. Luckily he came to a local meet, as all 18” EUCs were way easier to maneuver than he had imagined.

 The riding technique is slightly different though, so it may feel clumsy at first if you have only ridden 14” EUCs.

[Rich Sam]

32 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

The “feel” consists of joints that drag metal on metal and bearings not doing their jobs, and some units have bearings not pressed in straight, spring washers destroying bearings etc. The “feel” consists of several aspects that the design was clearly not meant for. It’s just a full shitshow about everything wrongly put together.

 

 

Yikes I was giving them the benefit of the doubt not seeing one first hand.  It sounds like the stiffness is definitely not a "feature"

I can say that I have buds that ride a s18 in the Seattle area, and they were disappointed I chose a v11 because their love of that wheel runs deep.   The response I received was what were you thinking?! 

I don't wanna bang on anyone's wheel, I genuinely feel folks would be happy with either choice.  I am definitely a v11 fan through and through and can vouch for the quality feel and ride.

[Mitch G]

22 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

 

V11 has VERY good dampening, I would say on par with my high-end MTB forks.  Demo version of the v11 did not have dampening, but I believe all shipping models have, I know my wheel does [3rd batch]

3rd batch is also supposed to have the hollow bearing things better... I don't have the issue, not sure if anyone else 3rd batch has it as well.

Wow I didnt know the V11 had dampening. Is it adjustable? I assume its like a classic motorcycle fork with a damping rod that pumps oil through it?

[Scottie888]

32 minutes ago, Mitch G said:

Wow I didnt know the V11 had dampening. Is it adjustable? I assume its like a classic motorcycle fork with a damping rod that pumps oil through it?

Personally I would not say that the V11 type air shock has adjustable damping. The V11 has an air shock with both a positive & negative air chambers. To simplify in short, the net difference btwn both chambers sets sag & spring force.

Compression & rebound damping are another level in fine tuning of the shock responsiveness.

[Planemo]

16 hours ago, mrelwood said:

When we started working with my friend’s S18, it took two full grown men to pull the suspension travel end to end, despite having the shock already detached.

Reading this literally made me cry with sorrow. I can only guess at how much metal was grinding itself to pieces. It sounds like a metal slaughterhouse.

As you suggest, without a shock fitted it should be silky smooth, with no knocks or slop. The only resistance should come from the grease in the bearings.

[Planemo]

12 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Personally I would not say that the V11 type air shock has adjustable damping.

I'm surprised. No adjustment knob? Without damping adjustment it will never be right for every rider and terrain. At least the S18 has the option of fitting a proper shock which could give you all the adjustment you would ever need. In fact, it may be possible to get a top quality spring shock (always nicer than an air shock due to zero stiction) to really get it dialled in.

[Scottie888]

41 minutes ago, Planemo said:

I'm surprised. No adjustment knob? Without damping adjustment it will never be right for every rider and terrain. At least the S18 has the option of fitting a proper shock which could give you all the adjustment you would ever need. In fact, it may be possible to get a top quality spring shock (always nicer than an air shock due to zero stiction) to really get it dialled in.

Technically, any shock provides damping & having both upper & lower air chambers does provide adjustment of said damping. Just not on the fly & not to the finer adjustments that a more sophisticated shock will provide.

The 165mm stock length limits it to either air or hydraulics. I have a sneak suspicion that a major reason for the S18's present performance is due to the stock DNMs. A good hydraulic Fox shox would do wonders if it will fit ofcos.

I'm still awaiting news of anyone that's replaced the S18's shock. 

[Tawpie]

48 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

I'm still awaiting news of anyone that's replaced the S18's shock. 

Somebody has done it (not a fox though) 

 

Edited February 22, 2021 by Tawpie

[FinRider]

2 hours ago, Planemo said:

Reading this literally made me cry with sorrow. I can only guess at how much metal was grinding itself to pieces. It sounds like a metal slaughterhouse.

As you suggest, without a shock fitted it should be silky smooth, with no knocks or slop. The only resistance should come from the grease in the bearings.

It was my wheel that @mrelwood was referring to. We literally could not get it to extend, no matter how much force we used.. it was very evident why this was the case after tearing the wheel apart. I had all the issues from the 1st batch that you can imagine. Metal rubbing on metal, bearings not working and mis-aligned..  But that is in the past now, so let me chime in with my 2 cents on this topic as well.

Both the S18 and the V11 has its cult followings. Both wheels have their own set of issues and challenges. But lets not turn this discussion into a bash fest as honestly, both wheels are excellent wheels when they function properly.

For a new rider, the S18 is probably easier to ride. Buyer beware however, as you need to be mechanically inclined and willing to do a lot of DIY TLC. Oh and did I already mention how much the stock tire sucks?

the V11 is the better all-rounder, probably the best on the market for this purpose. 
 

I strongly recommend getting a used (cheaper) starter wheel... nothing sucks more than seing your priced new posession tumbling down the pavement time and time again...

[Scottie888]

43 minutes ago, FinRider said:

Both the S18 and the V11 has its cult followings. Both wheels have their own set of issues and challenges. But lets not turn this discussion into a bash fest as honestly, both wheels are excellent wheels when they function properly.

For a new rider, the S18 is probably easier to ride. Buyer beware however, as you need to be mechanically inclined and willing to do a lot of DIY TLC. Oh and did I already mention how much the stock tire sucks?

Abso correct. Its pointless for fanboyz of either persuasion to bash the other. IMO both has its +/-'s. Personally I've done bubkas to my S18's suspension & to this day, its still performed. Ofcos it could be better but it would seem mine does not have any of the suspension or alignment issues noted in the huge S18 thread (touchwood).

You're again, 110% correct in your assessment of the shyte stock slicks. Can't say for sure if its all the tire's contribution but I can't remember the number of times I've dumped my wheel. That said, I've just ordered a Duro hf307 & hope to mount it for this spring's thaw. Will see how that goes but luckily I have a dremel & cordless grinder in hand just in case🤪

55 minutes ago, FinRider said:

the V11 is the better all-rounder, probably the best on the market for this purpose. 
 

Not having tried it, I can't really put forth much of an argument. Looks aside, the only thing I can't accept on the V11 is the excessively complex time consuming dissemble/reassemble process. Unless one lives with a local EUC reseller with a service center (but even then), I submit that most of us will have to get their hands dirty one way or another on any wheel. A tire/tube replacement is likely the most oft diy repair & I shudder at the thought of pulling apart the V11.

This is why I'd rather live with the QC issues of GW/BG but have their 1/2hr tire replacement esp on the MSX/P or even the RS/EX. 

[Wise Rides]

OMG, look what I started!  Thanks to everyone and all your input.  It's a big financial decision and I want to make sure I get value for the money.  Even a v10F is pushing $1500 in price and I think I'd grow out of a v8 pretty quick.  Go big or go home right?!!!  

Now, after doing even more research , I'm concerned about the hollow bore motor issues:

However, it looks like hollow bore motors are the future, so there's probably no avoiding this issue until two or three more generations of wheels are iterated and the kinks are worked out.  

I still think the bearing risk is worth the suspension and range for the v11.  I was debating changing my purchase to a Gotway MSX, but it looks like all high performance wheels have their issues.  I'm mechanically inclined, watched multiple videos of v11's being disassembled and it's not as complicated as I thought.  Just keeping my fingers crossed that I got a good one in the next batch from factory.  

And to give some love to s18, it looks awesome too!  Just wish it had the little extra battery power.  However, if it's your off-roading / trick wheel then the small difference in battery isn't going to be a big deal.  I just know I'll be more of a road cruiser with occasional off-roading so the v11 looks is a better fit for me.  But, when you watch Kuji Rolls and Chooch rock the s18 it just looks like so much fun!

Edited February 22, 2021 by Wise Rides

[Wise Rides]

The ship with my wheel on it lost 260 containers during heavy seas off the cost of Japan!  Not sure when I'll get it now...  Here's the email from eWheels:

"Good day,

This is an update regarding your order of either the King Song S18, Inmotion V11, or accompanying accessories (V11 PowerPads, V11 Honeycomb Pedals). 

 

We discovered this morning that the vessel en route to the Port of LA experienced an engine failure during a storm. This resulted in the loss of ~260 containers (out of an estimated 6,500 containers on board). There's approximately 5% probability of our container's loss. Our shipper has advised that they should know more next week. 

 

https://theloadstar.com/maersk-confirms-eindhoven-container-loss-at-260-as-vessel-heads-for-port/

 

Our hope is that barring anything catastrophic involving our container that the storm will not delay this shipment more than a couple of weeks from its original March 1 arrival date at the Port of LA. We will be sending out another update as soon as we hear from our shipper that our container is located, so please bear with us until the next update. 

 

Thank you for your patience,

 

eWheels Team"

Edited February 23, 2021 by Wise Rides

[Unventor]

8 hours ago, FinRider said:

It was my wheel that @mrelwood was referring to. We literally could not get it to extend, no matter how much force we used.. it was very evident why this was the case after tearing the wheel apart. I had all the issues from the 1st batch that you can imagine. Metal rubbing on metal, bearings not working and mis-aligned..  But that is in the past now, so let me chime in with my 2 cents on this topic as well.

Both the S18 and the V11 has its cult followings. Both wheels have their own set of issues and challenges. But lets not turn this discussion into a bash fest as honestly, both wheels are excellent wheels when they function properly.

For a new rider, the S18 is probably easier to ride. Buyer beware however, as you need to be mechanically inclined and willing to do a lot of DIY TLC. Oh and did I already mention how much the stock tire sucks?

the V11 is the better all-rounder, probably the best on the market for this purpose. 
 

I strongly recommend getting a used (cheaper) starter wheel... nothing sucks more than seing your priced new posession tumbling down the pavement time and time again...

I think this is a good way of writing this up. There is no point in getting into a bash war. And despite the suspension it comes at a cost of needing more TLC.

But once this is right it is a huge pleasure to ride. And like I wouldn't buy a car without suspension I am on the same idea with my EUCs now. 

I also think like you posted here. Starting on the current models has it own sets of challenges. So they would not be my first pitch as a new rider. 

[mike_bike_kite]

13 hours ago, FinRider said:

I strongly recommend getting a used (cheaper) starter wheel... nothing sucks more than seing your priced new posession tumbling down the pavement time and time again...

I'd go with this as well. Both wheels might be great for certain situations but not for learning to ride. Get something like a V10F and learning will be a pleasant experience.