floki Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 For me I simply cannot get over how ugly this thing looks. I know it's extremely superficial, but if I'm riding it every day, I want to enjoy and be proud using it. I'm not against boxy designs, it's just that Inmotion didn't do justice to appearance. Heck the Sherman, which is a box, still looks reasonable and has a Jeep"esque look to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 55 minutes ago, floki said: For me I simply cannot get over how ugly this thing looks. I know it's extremely superficial, but if I'm riding it every day, I want to enjoy and be proud using it. I'm not against boxy designs, it's just that Inmotion didn't do justice to appearance. Heck the Sherman, which is a box, still looks reasonable and has a Jeep"esque look to it. Sometimes you need to see things in real life and not in pictures. Others "models" (as in people) looks stunning in pictures but real life they might be so shinny. I recall same comments at the KS16X and Nikola but they seemed to grow on the community. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RockyTop Posted May 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2021 Remember that beautiful girl in high school that turned ugly once you got to know her? People that did not know her would comment that she is sooooo beautiful forcing you to take another look. You remembered that you too once thought she was beautiful ...... that is, until you got to know her. Well!? ,That works both ways. If you like the wheel, it will grow on you. You will relate the general appearance as a good lovable friend. ....Most non wheel people would never even realize that you changed wheels. I think the plastic looks nice. .... however I would prefer steam punk myself. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post wheel-life Posted May 17, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 17, 2021 Yup, this design has already grown on me quite a bit in just a couple weeks and to everyone else that sees you riding, most of these wheels all look the same (good or bad). 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 (edited) There are so many factors to make a wheel attractive or convincing that esthetic might not be one at the end. I wont exchange IP protection or the screen making APP obsolete to an other "look" Edited May 17, 2021 by Camenbert 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 To INMOTION people : now that you have a touchscreen, why not offering some thief protection by adding a PIN code at the switch on? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scottie Posted May 17, 2021 Share Posted May 17, 2021 (edited) I am not sure how I feel about this. Adam was not able to climb his testing inclines on the V12, like he did so easily on the 16X. He mentions the V12 appears to be software limited. I my mind, a 100V 2500watt wheel should easily beat a 84V 2200 watt wheel when it comes to grunt work. But they seem to be choosing safety factor, which is nothing wrong there. The V12 will probably climb the hills that most of us want to climb. It will be interesting to see reviews of production wheels when they hit the streets and hills. The v12 seems to be more of a speedster like the Nik. I will not let this deter my interest because I do like lots of safety buffer, whether it is for speed headroom or over-power protection. These videos start just before the climbing tests. The 16X making light work of the inclines: The V12 might climb if they let it: Edited May 17, 2021 by Scottie 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waulnut Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 2 hours ago, Scottie said: a 100V 2500watt wheel should easily beat a 84V 2200 watt wheel when it comes to grunt work. Ecodrift teardown noted the v12 motor has the same motor serial code as a 16x motor, so its not really 2500W. I guess it's wounded differently for speed over torque like wrongways said. I was a bit disappointed it couldn't do 35 degrees incline. I watched wrongway's old hill climbing vids and the Nikola did it fine without giving up. But like you said, I don't think I would be finding any 35 degrees inclines to climb. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Tasku Posted May 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) To be clear, V12 can climb 35 degree, you just need head start. Snail like crawling uphill hill is fire hazard for majority of these wheels. Burning your board is a real risk with older EUC to this date. Almost all previous EUC can burn that board if you very slowly force the wheel to rise up a steep hill. It requires high current and the longer you force this to the wheel, the more change of failure it can cause to components on circuit board. I seen many people in this forum using aftermarket solutions, to set some kind of warning and safety to their device use, just to protect it from high current. It just happens that V12 has safety in that regard. High current in higher speed causes beeping instead of pedal tilting. Veteran EUC riders know of these things, but rookies tend to just push the limits. Good feature but you lose some of that performance over safety. Adam does his usual torture to the wheels and he proves V12 is more commuter device, but with safety that most of us welcome. V12 unit could hold its value well over time. Anycase, I am more curious to know what the production unit ends up having, seems like lot of changes are going to be put into it. At least according to every reviewer so far. Edited May 18, 2021 by Tasku 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post UniVehje Posted May 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, Scottie said: my mind, a 100V 2500watt wheel should easily beat a 84V 2200 watt wheel when it comes to grunt work. But they seem to be choosing safety factor, Neither of these numbers really have anything to do with climbing or power directly. 100V only improves the RPM count the motor can handle, so speed at the very top end. And wattage number means only the nominal rating, i.e. how many watts it can take pushed through it continuously without overheating. The number can be improved just by better ventilation so it really can be correct number despite someone else printing lower number. This is done because people compare this number and higher is better in their mind. The motor doesn’t produce the power, only translates it to rotations. The battery provides the power and the control board regulates it. What the test means is that this motor is wound for higher RPM instead of torque. It needs to be in order for a 16x3” tire can achieve high enough rpm count for the high speed they claim. 16X motor is wound for torque which makes it a great climber but it runs out if torque at lower rpm and thus has lower top speed. In my mind this was a mistake from Inmotion to use a smaller wheel to compete in speed spec. Smaller diameter would have been great for climbing and acceleration. And it has a disadvantage for speed. That’s why it cannot quite reach the 18x3” Sherman top speed. So not the best at either, but could have been best at climbing. Those who really need the speed choose a bigger tire for that purpose anyway. Those who like zippines like smaller diameter and would benefit more from a motor wound for torque. Also, nothing to do with safety limitations. The motor is just made for different purposes. Edited May 18, 2021 by UniVehje 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post mrelwood Posted May 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 18, 2021 1 hour ago, Waulnut said: Ecodrift teardown noted the v12 motor has the same motor serial code as a 16x motor, so its not really 2500W. No EUC wattage value is “real”. I don’t know how they come up with the numbers, but it seems to be a semi-random value affected by the max battery output power, max controller output power (hardware + software), and I guess somewhat by the physical motor as well. And since it is supposed to be the rated avg power, things like cooling and cabling actually do affect it as well. So, make sure that air circulates better and you already have a more “powerful“ wheel with the same exact motor. And then there is the defining of “extended periods of time”, which is how long the motor should be able to handle the mentioned amount of power. Is it 10 seconds? A minute? 10 minutes? Huge differences in the value. And none of the above even try to describe how much output power the motor is able to provide. It only tells how much input power the motor can handle. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 1 hour ago, UniVehje said: Neither of these numbers really have anything to do with climbing or power directly. ... Hah! Had I seen @UniVehje’s fact-laden post, I’d have had no reason to type the previous post of my own. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, UniVehje said: 16X motor is wound for torque which makes it a great climber It might have same wound than V12, but one wheel is 84V, the other 100V. The difference in climbing ability might well be found in the passive cooling, therefor the firmware protection - overall safety, as Tasku mention Edited May 18, 2021 by Camenbert Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) 6 hours ago, Camenbert said: It might have same wound than V12, but one wheel is 84V, the other 100V. The difference in climbing ability might well be found in the passive cooling, therefor the firmware protection - overall safety, as Tasku mention It could be as you said. We really can only speculate. The reason I think it's not just safety thing is the behaviour. InMotions usually beep and tiltback. On the video it just seemed to let in. Or maybe it's a feature that tilts forward slightly to warn the user? And it could be just a tuning issue also as it is just a prototype wheel still. Cooling shouldn't be the issue for so short peak demand and it probably has enough big MOSFETs. But it would definitely make sense for Inmotion to get the speed optimised version of that motor if they aim for safe 70 km/h speeds. Most of the time same motors can be ordered in different versions. Edited May 18, 2021 by UniVehje Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RagingGrandpa Posted May 18, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 18, 2021 (edited) 7 hours ago, UniVehje said: 16X motor is wound for torque which makes it a great climber Yup. V12 has 3 turns per pole. 16x had 4 turns. Otherwise, same pole count, same size pm. Edited May 18, 2021 by RagingGrandpa 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 my bad, 16x free spin at 65/66kmh - and not 84 to have same kV as V12. However, this alone might not explain all the incline performance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheel-life Posted May 18, 2021 Share Posted May 18, 2021 Since this is the 16X motor but wound for speed, think there's a noticeable difference in acceleration vs the 16X? That's one of my favorite things about my wheel...then again, it's bittersweet to hit 40km/h so fast (where I have the beeps set at for my size). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post GPW Posted May 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2021 (edited) 42 minutes ago, wheel-life said: Since this is the 16X motor but wound for speed, think there's a noticeable difference in acceleration vs the 16X? That's one of my favorite things about my wheel...then again, it's bittersweet to hit 40km/h so fast (where I have the beeps set at for my size). Had the same question. Not a scientific answer by any means, but chased down 0-40km/h times from wrongways reviews for V12, 16X, and Nikola. V12 3.7s, 16X 3.3s, Nikola+ 100V 3.6s, Nikola 84V 4.2s Edited May 19, 2021 by GPW 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wheel-life Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 3 hours ago, GPW said: Had the same question. Not a scientific answer by any means, but chased down 0-40km/h times from wrongways reviews for V12, 16X, and Nikola. V12 3.7s, 16X 3.3s, Nikola+ 100V 3.6s, Nikola 84V 4.2s Thanks, good stuff! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post UniVehje Posted May 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2021 If one wheel would accelerate faster than the other with the same lean, it would shoot out from under your feet and you would drop on your butt. And if Adam didn’t fall on his face, he could have leaned more. That’s why these acceleration tests are a bit fishy. The wheel’s only job is balancing you and acceleration is just a side effect as it tries to stay level when you purposefully try to fall forward. A wheel won’t just accelerate faster because it has more nominal wattage, volts, Wh or torque. It accelerates just the right amount to keep you balanced. It just tries to move back under the centre of gravity when you move that centre forward or backwards by leaning. What we talk about when discussing the difference in acceleration is how effortless it feels. This is mostly about wheel geometry and software. Only at the very limits there comes performance. Meaning, an older and weaker wheel can be over leaned by putting on pads and doing a strong lean. If the wheel moved under you to keep you balanced, it accelerated fast enough for your lean and the amount of lean was about your skill level and how easy it was, not about how the motor was wound or voltage etc. 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yoos Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, UniVehje said: That’s why these acceleration tests are a bit fishy Indeed, a proper acceleration test would require a lot of tries with a significant number of those tries ending in an overlean (free crash tests!). This would eventually provide the ultimate acceleration time (for given rider weight). Nevertheless it still makes sense to measure some "safe acceleration" as Adam does. The "safe" can even be made somewhat rigorous if the wheel has a power/amperage alarms. By consistently riding at those power/amperage limits one should get a consistent safe acceleration time. I think metrics like "safe acceleration", "safe topspeed" are really useful for most riders. Of course, knowing the true performance limit is more exciting and important for enthusiasts and racers. Incline climb tests, on the other hand, should be quite accurate since overleaning is mostly safe in this scenario. Anyway, all of the data GPW posted is from the same tester - Adam - and therefore should give a reasonable comparison between the wheels. Edited May 19, 2021 by yoos 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post onizukagto Posted May 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2021 (edited) On 5/18/2021 at 2:32 AM, Camenbert said: To INMOTION people : now that you have a touchscreen, why not offering some thief protection by adding a PIN code at the switch on? Mm... Dunno. I don't think Inmotion would do th- Oh. Maybe they will? Edited May 19, 2021 by onizukagto 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post UniVehje Posted May 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2021 3 hours ago, yoos said: Anyway, all of the data GPW posted is from the same tester - Adam - and therefore should give a reasonable comparison between the wheels. I get what you are saying. I would still argue that it is not a reasonable comparison. Maybe just a ball park comparison. Tenths of a second differences without precision timing should not matter for any comparison. I can get faster accelerations just by changing the settings on my wheel or getting used to it better. My 18XL got better acceleration with a firmware update. What is the comparison really about? Maybe one wheel just suits Adam's style better and somebody else would get different results? What settings did Adam have on the wheels and did he try with different settings? I'm not saying there are no differences or every wheel can accelerate just the same. I just think the acceleration debate is very complex and most people looking at the test numbers for comparison don't really understand the concept that well. It's too easy to compare EUCs with other vehicles, where the acceleration is very straight forward and testable number that depends directly from power and torque specs. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Camenbert Posted May 19, 2021 Share Posted May 19, 2021 10 hours ago, GPW said: V12 3.7s, 16X 3.3s, Nikola+ 100V 3.6s, Nikola 84V 4.2s The V12 free spin is 100 kph, it could have been 78 kph with the 16X wound, not fast enough? In the other hand, this theoretically gave us a fast accelerating wheel, ~3.0s for this V12 "16X 100V"?? May InMotion give the High Torque/High Speed choice as Gotway? As seen with them, HT run cooler and have a better range. Bonus. 11 minutes ago, UniVehje said: I'm not saying there are no differences or every wheel can accelerate just the same. Adam do a hierarchy and this seems good enough : somehow in logic with each wheel characteristics. You say the wheel just tries to move back under the centre of gravity when you move that centre forward or backwards by leaning but what's the "power" pads for then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post UniVehje Posted May 19, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted May 19, 2021 16 minutes ago, Camenbert said: You say the wheel just tries to move back under the centre of gravity when you move that centre forward or backwards by leaning but what's the "power" pads for then? That's exactly the only thing the wheel does and the only way to move forward on an EUC. There are no "gas pedal" equivalent sensors. It just wants to keep the pedals level. Pads help with leaning more forward than you could with just on you feet. Try how much you can lean standing on the floor without falling over your toes. Then try the same thing standing in front of your couch, knees resting on the couch. You can lean more and easier. That's what the pads do. Just easier to lean more than you could without them. And with more lean, the centre of gravity moves even further and the wheel needs to accelerate faster to catch you. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts