INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[Scottie888]

4 hours ago, Wren said:

Sure, that sounds great! I'd love to try out the S18 and see what it's like to ride. Checking out Nose Hill park seems fun too, I've been to Fish Creek with some friends but not to Nose Hill.

 

You're welcome to join us here in Calgary. I ride with a crew of EUCs & esk8s. That said, Nose Hill isn't like Fish Creek as its a freakin' huge plot of land with rolling hills & a high point of >4k ft. While not technical, its gonna be a rollercoaster ride so better get your cardio prepped esp on a non assisted MTB😅! Everytime I'm there, I get lost & almost never exit the same point of entry!! Thank God for google maps🤪

[Espen R]

On 1/31/2021 at 6:21 PM, mrelwood said:

 

While I agree with your other points on EUC safety, there are a few aspects the above comment doesn’t take in consideration.

1. An EUC that couldn’t be over-leaned would have to have an infinite amount of power available at all available speeds. Hence such battery, motor, or controller can never exist.

2. An extreme version of an overlean is a loss of grip. For it to be impossible as well, the EUC would have to have a tire with an infinite amount of grip on all surfaces. Such tire can never exist.

When we were riding EUCs with 170Wh batteries and 500W motors, we hoped for more power so it wouldn’t be overleaned as easily. We now have 6 times the motor power and 20 times the battery capacity, yet overleans remain a concern. The EUC simply cannot prevent the rider from overleaning, only the rider can.

 Luckily there are things that an EUC can do to make overleans difficult enough.

Then let me rephrase; but first allow me to point out that I find a bit silly having to defend my view from someone that very unreasonable chose to interpret the word impossible as narrowly and anal as possible.

When I wrote that I wanted user error cut-outs to be impossible, I didn't literarily mean impossible, and I think most would understand that what I meant was impossible within reason and within the realms of physics, and they will have no problems understanding and interpreting the meaning of what I wrote more intelligently than litterate.

Why not try to make communication a bit easier and interpret words in a more reasonable fashion, and put an end to this very anal attitude. We are as close to agreeing to the obvious point of my argument, that overleans/cut outs should be impossible within the realms of reason. 

Your write in the end:  "Luckily there are things that an EUC can do to make overleans difficult enough" . If you didn't chose to interpret the word impossible literarily, then you would see that we agree, and then perhaps you would have wanted to write something that showed we agreed instead of this anal word bickering. What's your point? Do you want everything to be read and understood in the most litteral way possible??? Communication would break down in a world like this, something I'm sure you understand, so why do you chose to act like this?? Is it enjoyment? 

[Unventor]

@Espen R many people have changed their use of words to Facebook like/dislike culture. So when people make ultimate choices and use impossible or never or always, it does leave any room for interpretation.

But I really find this sidetracking to the threads topic. 

So I hope Inmotion soon will reveal more of what target group/user they had in mind when making the V12. Then some specefication would be nice (but I always take these with a pinch of salt from any brand/maker). 

So to explain this a bit further is what value a customer can expect if choosing to buy a new V12. Why a customer should consider this as a wheel made for they needs/wants and extra benefits. 

To really make a huge design impact I think that is a bit too late from how far Inmotion are into the launch of this model. 

[Espen R]

2 minutes ago, Unventor said:

@Espen R many people have changed their use of words to Facebook like/dislike culture. So when people make ultimate choices and use impossible or never or always, it does leave any room for interpretation.

Well, if that is true, then we have lost our ability to communicate with each other, and I certainly don’t hope that has happened.

If we try to understand each other and interpret what we are saying in the best, most sensical way, then more of what we are saying to each other starts to make sense. If we have rules that every word should be understood literary, then communication would stop and we could no longer talk to each other about thoughts and feelings.

When someone so blindly chose to interpret a word, then I think it is ok to say that there are much more open and inclusive ways we can communicate with each other than literary interpret the word impossible as something that violates reason and therefore should be excommunicated from the dictionary because of that.      

[mrelwood]

38 minutes ago, Espen R said:

When someone so blindly chose to interpret a word, then I think it is ok to say that there are much more open and inclusive ways we can communicate with each other than literary interpret the word impossible as something that violates reason and therefore should be excommunicated from the dictionary because of that.      

Dear Mr Espen. It is more common than you might realize for EUC users to misunderstand how the EUC itself functions, and what the limitations of real life physics are. In this context your choice of words would’ve been common for such a person. I have no idea of your level of understanding on physics, and I’d find it unreasonable to expect that your common choice of words would’ve meant something different than what the words themselves mean, and what they are commonly used for.

 In my language “reasonably impossible” is literally contradicting itself, and I’ve never seen anyone else use it in English either. I hadn’t thought that there would be a need for such an expression, when one could just as well use one of many existing ones.

 If you want to be correctly understood in an international discussion forum with hugely varying cultures and first language backgrounds (some of which read the forum through Google translate), I wouldn’t rely on others to catch your meaning that differs from what you write. It does sound like you would have no problem describing what you mean exactly either.

[Planemo]

51 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 “reasonably impossible” is literally contradicting itself, and I’ve never seen anyone else use it in English either.

Me neither, and I'm English! In fact, it's an excellent example of an oxymoron. So good in fact, it's probably one taught in schools I might imagine. A bit like 'cruel kindness'

 

[mhpr262]

23 hours ago, Jonny727272 said:

I would love to see a 16" wheel with 1,800wh+ of battery

And the biggest pipedream would be to see it come with spiked pedals or the hex holes style. Probably won't ever happen, but it would be cool.

1.500Wh would be enough for me. Even my V10F with a 960Wh battery can haul my 135kg in full gear across 40-45 kilometers in hilly terrain at reasonable speeds 20-25kmh that still allow you to wear bicycle saftey gear instead of full on motorcycle gear. That is two hours of riding and my knees give out long before that. I'd rather have them keep the weight reasonable.

 

And I dont see why hex hole pedals are so unreasonable to expect. If you use a large enough number of them, like if you use the same type of pedal on every one of your wheels, you can vacuum cast them, and that is not any more expensive than the pedals we have now.

[Espen R]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I have no idea of your level of understanding on physics, and I’d find it unreasonable to expect that your common choice of words would’ve meant something different than what the words themselves mean, and what they are commonly used for.

I think you perfectly understood me the first time and chose to misinterpret me, because I fail to see how a reasonable man could chose interpret words from another reasonable man to be outside realms of reality? Do you really think that it is rational to interpret someone's use of the word impossible as that person expected that it would be reasonable to ask that EUC manufactures must break the laws of physics??? Of course not. Impossible was used to send a message to them so that they must listen and start to take our safety seriously, it was not ment to create an alternative reality where it is rational to believe everybody have lost touch of reality. 

I want them to make it impossible for a new EUC rider that has lost his balance and stands on his toes with all his weight, or even lands from a small jump with heals and most of the foot in the front part of the pedal, or goes to fast without realizing it, to overpower the wheel in a way that causes cut-outs or blown MOSFETS or capacitors on the motherboard, and within reason, they could make it close to impossible to overpower a wheel in a way that damages a rider and/or the wheel, and, that's the sane and sensible interpretation of the word impossible in the context I used it in. Implementing better software to protect the rider and the wheel from cut-outs and the motherboard from being overloaded is not an impossible request, the solutions exists, but to you it is more important to start silly bickering over an interpretation of the word impossible that is unreasonable, than it is to unify the EUC community and demand more focus on rider safety.

I have broken down impossible many times, by doing things I thought was impossible for me. Impossible is also used as a yardstick and as a challenge. If we never defeated what we thought was impossible, we would still be living in caves.

Edited February 3, 2021 by Espen R

[Unventor]

33 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

And I dont see why hex hole pedals are so unreasonable to expect. If you use a large enough number of them, like if you use the same type of pedal on every one of your wheels, you can vacuum cast them, and that is not any more expensive than the pedals we have now.

I think it will be down to how many you can make vs cost vs overall public demand. 

And I have see some new ideas that I don't k ow if Inmotion chose to make or if this was just crazy brainstorming ideas. 

So I still hope we get atlease a bit more teasers from Inmotion soon. That is when the fun begins (for us that is confined by winter weather seasons right now). 

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, mhpr262 said:

1.500Wh would be enough for me. Even my V10F with a 960Wh battery can haul my 135kg in full gear across 40-45 kilometers in hilly terrain at reasonable speeds 20-25kmh that still allow you to wear bicycle saftey gear instead of full on motorcycle gear. That is two hours of riding and my knees give out long before that. I'd rather have them keep the weight reasonable.

 

And I dont see why hex hole pedals are so unreasonable to expect. If you use a large enough number of them, like if you use the same type of pedal on every one of your wheels, you can vacuum cast them, and that is not any more expensive than the pedals we have now.

You just described the v11 🤣

[mrelwood]

42 minutes ago, Espen R said:

I think you perfectly understood me the first time and chose to misinterpret me

I already told you how I understood your request.

42 minutes ago, Espen R said:

I fail to see how a reasonable man could chose interpret words from another reasonable man to be outside realms of reality? Do you really think that it is rational to interpret someone's use of the word impossible as that person expected that it would be reasonable to ask that EUC manufactures must break the laws of physics??? Of course not.

Of course yes! As I said, it is a common thing to ask by people who don’t understand the related physics very well. A huge number of us don’t.

Thing is, I had no reason to assume that you would even be a “reasonable man”. And seeing how you got stuck in this subject even after my explanation, I still don’t.

42 minutes ago, Espen R said:

Impossible was used to send a message to them so that they must listen and start to take our safety seriously

To me it read as someone asking something impossible. Again, a common thing to read here. I don’t think such requests go through with the manufacturers nearly as well as factual and more specific requests do.

42 minutes ago, Espen R said:

I want them to make it impossible for a new EUC rider that has lost his balance and stands on his toes with all his weight, or even lands from a small jump with heals and most of the foot in the front part of the pedal, or goes to fast without realizing it, to overpower the wheel

To which I could respond exactly as I did the first time around. It is simply impossible to make such a wheel. However you decide to interpret the word this way around.

42 minutes ago, Espen R said:

to you it is more important to start silly bickering over an interpretation of the word impossible that is unreasonable, than it is to unify the EUC community and demand more focus on rider safety.

Since you haven’t noticed, calling out clear safety issues in EUC firmwares is what I’ve been actively been doing for a few years now. I wasn’t the one who started to talk about word interpretations, and how to use words to describe something different than what the words actually mean.

42 minutes ago, Espen R said:

I have broken down impossible many times, by doing things I thought was impossible for me. Impossible is also used as a yardstick and as a challenge. If we never defeated what we thought was impossible, we would still be living in caves.

Things that are factually impossible are very different than things one thinks to be impossible. For example, the literal interpretation of what you asked is factually impossible, and I think that us agreeing is impossible as well. Only one of the above has a (literal) possibility to happen, however small it may be.

 If you want to continue this subject, I suggest we do so either by PM or in the off-topic section of the forum. This thread is about what anyone expects from the V12.

[GoGeorgeGo]

Lets all remeber that its the middle of winter during a pandemic for most of us. Its easy to be on edge, and i have noticed a small uptick in confrontational attitudes all over the internet. 

Remeber we are all here to celebrate the release of another amazing machine that brings us all so much joy.  We are all brothers, lets ride!!!

 

And to be clear this is not directed at anyone in particular, i even cstch myself on occasion being negative and looking to pick fights over nonsense lol. I think it is just part of human nature when to much of our interactions happen on screens and not in person. The psychological components of our current situations has only just begun to be analyzed. I think we will all look bavk at these times and realize how hard it really was in hindsight

[Espen R]

6 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

To which I could respond exactly as I did the first time around. It is simply impossible to make such a wheel. However you decide to interpret the word this way around.

It is possible to make it impossible for a man of normal strength and weight to overpower a wheel, it might not stop the weight of a car or a human hitting the pedals with the force of 50G, but it is possible to make it impossible for a normal human that acts within laws of physics to overpower a wheel,  I'm not asking for it to be impossible for Superman, because he doesn't exist in my reality. 

[Rich Sam]

10 minutes ago, Espen R said:

It is possible to make it impossible for a man of normal strength and weight to overpower a wheel, it might not stop the weight of a car or a human hitting the pedals with the force of 50G, but it is possible to make it impossible for a normal human that acts within laws of physics to overpower a wheel,  I'm not asking for it to be impossible for Superman, because he doesn't exist in my reality. 

I think we can all agree on we would like to see more reserve power to make it harder to overpower.

Opinions vary on if it is possible to completely illuminate it.  My personal take is with the introduction of power pads it really complicates the problem because of the leverage one can create.  Perhaps when engineers are calibrating reserve power to the weight of a "Normal Person" they can calculate those numbers with a tall individual with high power pads to increase the leverage.

I'm a fatty so I know I'm not a "Normal Person" and will have to watch and feel out the boundaries very carefully.  From the perspective of a big person I can confidently say I am very pleased with performance given my weight on v11.

[.....]

2 hours ago, Rich Sam said:

I think we can all agree on we would like to see more reserve power to make it harder to overpower.

Opinions vary on if it is possible to completely illuminate it.  My personal take is with the introduction of power pads it really complicates the problem because of the leverage one can create.  Perhaps when engineers are calibrating reserve power to the weight of a "Normal Person" they can calculate those numbers with a tall individual with high power pads to increase the leverage.

I'm a fatty so I know I'm not a "Normal Person" and will have to watch and feel out the boundaries very carefully.  From the perspective of a big person I can confidently say I am very pleased with performance given my weight on v11.

The problem with reserve power, is people will use it for normal operations. We already have reserve power on most brands of wheel. One must simply set their own top speed at a lower value than maximum available.

Edited February 3, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Unventor]

55 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Lets all remeber that its the middle of winter during a pandemic for most of us. Its easy to be on edge, and i have noticed a small uptick in confrontational attitudes all over the internet. 

Remeber we are all here to celebrate the release of another amazing machine that brings us all so much joy.  We are all brothers, lets ride!!!

 

And to be clear this is not directed at anyone in particular, i even cstch myself on occasion being negative and looking to pick fights over nonsense lol. I think it is just part of human nature when to much of our interactions happen on screens and not in person. The psychological components of our current situations has only just begun to be analyzed. I think we will all look bavk at these times and realize how hard it really was in hindsight

Hear hear. 

That is why I like my V11 so much. It ticked so many boxes of what I wished for in a wheel. 

Not every one were happy a out this mostly because they didn't see the need for suspension. 

So in times where people more and more polarized. I think your post to look at what unite us in the community is a great gesture. And it all starts to look at ourself in the mirror and our own behaviour. 

One question though, what can we cook up as innovation roumer while we wait for facts and details from the makers themself? 

Let me give a hint. We saw one of the best headlamps in the market with the V11. So looking at this how would you suggest to improve this on a V12. The V11 headlamp raised the bar, but can we get a even better one without huge extra costs and what would possible? The Sherman is not really my favourite for many reasons. But how you can tilt the lamp and use a different one of your choise (within limits) isn't a bad idea.

Another idea, some torchlight have a adjustable light beam from wide go tele by twisting the lens/body. (or a system like on photography flashes, where the lamp is moved back or forth in a light focus system). Let's say you connect this to the speed of the wheel that could make it more practical on the fly as you move from tight maneuvering to riding at high speeds. It might not need to add too much extra costs. Just a though. 

[Unventor]

1 hour ago, Espen R said:

It is possible to make it impossible for a man of normal strength and weight to overpower a wheel, it might not stop the weight of a car or a human hitting the pedals with the force of 50G, but it is possible to make it impossible for a normal human that acts within laws of physics to overpower a wheel,  I'm not asking for it to be impossible for Superman, because he doesn't exist in my reality. 

I don't think this is a feasable at this point in time at least at a reasonable price. It all has to do with spikes of demand for any reason. 

I doubt we will find common grounds on this just like @mrelwoodwrote about earlier. Unless you make a sherman/KS16X that is severe limited in their speed. Which will lead to overlean once you get near the restricted limits.

This will be a debate back and forth. From my rides and current wheel experience I just don't think this is a simple task. In a car You can make traction controls in a super car, but that is very hard to do on a self balancing unit on 1 wheel. These devices are so very different in physics and the space for power train that I don't think we have the needed technologi yet. What you ask is to handle an extreme kuji lean and at a heavier rider too. I seriously doubt it. 

[mike_bike_kite]

Is there any info on what this wheel will be like or are they still designing it? If still designing, then I'd like to see something like the V11 but replacing the suspension with a little more battery. I'd like to be able to cruise at between 25mph and 30mph for most of the battery. I'd also want something that's quite robust as I fall a lot. I like the idea of the lights but they just look too fragile in a crash to me. I prefer the round shell of the V10 to the turret extension on the V11. I'm not convinced at all by these hollow motors so I'd prefer the old style axles. I think I'd also want the older 18650 cells as less chance of fires. I think I'd also prefer 84v for the same reason even if the wheel was slower. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

50 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Hear hear. 

That is why I like my V11 so much. It ticked so many boxes of what I wished for in a wheel. 

Not every one were happy a out this mostly because they didn't see the need for suspension. 

So in times where people more and more polarized. I think your post to look at what unite us in the community is a great gesture. And it all starts to look at ourself in the mirror and our own behaviour. 

One question though, what can we cook up as innovation roumer while we wait for facts and details from the makers themself? 

Let me give a hint. We saw one of the best headlamps in the market with the V11. So looking at this how would you suggest to improve this on a V12. The V11 headlamp raised the bar, but can we get a even better one without huge extra costs and what would possible? The Sherman is not really my favourite for many reasons. But how you can tilt the lamp and use a different one of your choise (within limits) isn't a bad idea.

Another idea, some torchlight have a adjustable light beam from wide go tele by twisting the lens/body. (or a system like on photography flashes, where the lamp is moved back or forth in a light focus system). Let's say you connect this to the speed of the wheel that could make it more practical on the fly as you move from tight maneuvering to riding at high speeds. It might not need to add too much extra costs. Just a though. 

A light that adjusts up and down , like a high beams setting, is a dream come true for me.

The amazing power of the v11 light is wasted imo by its horrible angle. Its fine for city riders, where excess pight allows for good visibility and you really only need the lighting for directly on the ground infront of you.

But i live in a more rural area, no streetlights, no building lights, just pitch black. The v11 is almost useless for riding here at night as it completely snow blinds you and gives less than 20 feet of visibility.

If i had the option to flip on a high bema and illuminate my surroundings, it would COMPLETELY change the lights use ability.

Since i got mine i have held onto the idea that the tail light is the best light on the v11 and the headlight gets FAR to much praise for its limited usability

[mike_bike_kite]

16 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

The amazing power of the v11 light is wasted imo by its horrible angle.

Could you adjust the ride angle of the wheel so, rather than the pedals being completely level, you ride with the pedals just fractionally up? It's an option to set on many wheels.

[BruceCLin]

4 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Could you adjust the ride angle of the wheel so, rather than the pedals being completely level, you ride with the pedals just fractionally up? It's an option to set on many wheels.

I can confirm that adjusting the angle works for the light if the small angle up doesn't bother you. Also the offroad full hardness keep the light up and will not dip while accelerating. The commute mode dips too much.

[GoGeorgeGo]

2 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Could you adjust the ride angle of the wheel so, rather than the pedals being completely level, you ride with the pedals just fractionally up? It's an option to set on many wheels.

Im sure you could but that is a non starter for me lol.  Riding tiltback the entire ride just to adjust a light angle is not a viable solution. Especially when it needs to be raised a full 10-15 degrees to illuminate your surroundings adequately. And you still need to be able to lower the angle in situations involving oncomming traffic (be it cars or people)

The current solution is to hold a flashlight or wear a helmet light, but both options i hate. I want to be unencumbered while riding, and i dont want to have to worry about extra batteries outside of my unicycle, especially when we are talking about 1500+ wh batteries on board. 

Even a manually adjusted lever on the side of the headlight would be adequate. A digital solution i could turn on or off with a smart watch or app would be even better. I woyld gladly swap out the horn button for a highbeam/lowbeam button

[GoGeorgeGo]

2 minutes ago, BruceCLin said:

I can confirm that adjusting the angle works for the light if the small angle up doesn't bother you. Also the offroad full hardness keep the light up and will not dip while accelerating. The commute mode dips too much.

I ride with offroad 90% sensitivity, it still only shoots downward with about 20 feet of range. If your going down a hill it works pretty good, but flat ground and uphill its uselss at night. Cant see far enough ahead to go more than 5-10 mph 

[Rich Sam]

4 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I ride with offroad 90% sensitivity, it still only shoots downward with about 20 feet of range. If your going down a hill it works pretty good, but flat ground and uphill its uselss at night. Cant see far enough ahead to go more than 5-10 mph 

Yes I too feel this.  I did a 3% tilt back that helps at speed, but I think I'm blinking cars going slow now

I know it's a pipe dream, but maybe the headlight can tie into the tilt data and adjust beam direction accordingly.  Adaptive headlights.  Imagine a headlight that can sense turning and tilt in the direction of the turn, or up on a heavy lean.  Super cool.

[EUChristian]

46 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

I ride with offroad 90% sensitivity, it still only shoots downward with about 20 feet of range. If your going down a hill it works pretty good, but flat ground and uphill its uselss at night. Cant see far enough ahead to go more than 5-10 mph 

Confirmed. 

 

I've been looking at tactical flashlights for rifles - some of which are very powerful - and mounting a small rail system to each side of the front of the wheel itself- the the headlight but down on the wheel cover by my feet. Switch them on and off at will and have them pointing slightly high as "highbeams"