INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[GoGeorgeGo]

22 hours ago, Heyzeus said:

If only I could get the supposed specs of the v12 in a wheel the size and weight of my ACM2, plus solid water resistance, I'd be smitten.  I suppose the limiting factor there is battery tech where the weight of the batteries needed to reliably deliver the power needed for speeds of 60-70kmh can only go so low.  

 

Honestly after riding bigger heavier wheels, no way would i want to do 40 mph on a small wheel. The stability of being planted to the ground and the safety of a large tire to eat bumps and imperfections are the only reason you can potentially hit those speeds safely.  Something light that pops off the pavement easier or give way to wind easier does not inspire confidence. 

I think there is a clear distinction coming between portable wheels and road wheels and i do not see road wheels getting lighter anytime soon. In fact after riding a 100lb monster pro for a little while, i think they will get even heavier before they get lighter

[jimjam.nyc]

5 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Honestly after riding bigger heavier wheels, no way would i want to do 40 mph on a small wheel. The stability of being planted to the ground and the safety of a large tire to eat bumps and imperfections are the only reason you can potentially hit those speeds safely.  Something light that pops off the pavement easier or give way to wind easier does not inspire confidence. 

I think there is a clear distinction coming between portable wheels and road wheels and i do not see road wheels getting lighter anytime soon. In fact after riding a 100lb monster pro for a little while, i think they will get even heavier before they get lighter

While I have never ridden a wheel that heavy, I tend to agree. All of the feedback from the heavier wheel riders is heavier is not such a bad thing. Especially at higher speeds.

I think people need to move past the one wheel for all thought, and start to come to terms with having multiple wheels for different scenarios is going to be the norm. 

That being said the current batch of 16 inch wheels are decent all rounder wheels. It just looks like the push going fwd is going to be towards faster heavier wheels. 

To be honest I am not sure how much you could improve on the lighter lower range wheels without busting into the next category. I guess you can add the better lights, screens and kickstands, etc. But at some point they will be too expensive for what they are needed for. 

 

 

[Kekafuch]

There’s likely lots to improve in the control loop that balances and drives the motor. The feel of the wheel. Traction control and how the wheel behaves at the microsecond of losing traction. 
 

Maybe InMotion advertise the speed but the power can be applied to hill climbing smoothness. Instant acceleration to get over roots and not spin out. These are in the control algorithms that are cycling hundreds of times a second and gives the wheel its feel. Maybe possible to climb stairs smoothly just by how the wheel applies power and braking and sensing obstacle. Lots of room for advances that justify price increases. 
 

 

[Flying W]

Coming from a long time motorcycle back ground having different wheels for different rides seems normal for me. 

Smaller wheel like the mcm5 is great for running errands around town, rs is great off road, 16s with xl pedals is great for cruising the beach boardwalk....what I'm missing is an all weather capable commuting wheel so I'm hoping the normal bearing setup and water resistance is great on this V12. 

Oddly even my wife agrees a 5th wheel for getting to work is cheaper than another car even if I go through one per year and sel ll it off for a new one. She also knows I'm a happier person if I get to ride daily. She just wants me off the street bikes since we have a baby now. 

I can live with wheels and dirt bikes just fine though 😁

 

[Heyzeus]

7 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I think people need to move past the one wheel for all thought, and start to come to terms with having multiple wheels for different scenarios is going to be the norm.

I need to get some of that RPG inventory space so that I can get a v12, ride it from my place to huntington/laguna beach and then pop it my pocket when I get to the coffee shop or see stairs, then pull out an mten3 to ride around the beach area till I'm ready to go back home.

[Zopper]

13 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I think people need to move past the one wheel for all thought, and start to come to terms with having multiple wheels for different scenarios is going to be the norm. 

That being said the current batch of 16 inch wheels are decent all rounder wheels. It just looks like the push going fwd is going to be towards faster heavier wheels. 

To be honest I am not sure how much you could improve on the lighter lower range wheels without busting into the next category. I guess you can add the better lights, screens and kickstands, etc. But at some point they will be too expensive for what they are needed for.

I don't think that EUCs should venture into motorcycle world for safety reasons (braking, approach to safety and limits by manufacturers is not even remotely good enough for 100+ km/h devices, ...), but ignoring that factor, we need to solve some issues before even getting there. For example: The machines are getting too big and heavy to carry home after each ride, so we need EUCs that can be parked outside 24/365, no matter the weather. And with proper security, be it a physical key, or just a nfc fob required to turn it on, because it has to survive unattended just like MC does. Or how are we going to get regulators to put stickers on it and give us licence plates, while not banning all EUC from sidewalks?

In short, MC-grade EUC is not just about MOAR SPEEED, MOAR POWER! There is a ton of implicit requirements and heaps of problems that we should resolve BEFORE we have the speed and power.

Edited April 1, 2021 by Zopper

[Flying W]

We have moped beating performance already, and I think if it wasn't so much of a novelty and rule makes really understood what the top level machines can do we would see either bans or some way of registering them being required to have insurance. 

In an odd way I welcome more expensive machines just because it's harder for my 16yr old self to have one. I'm 41, I slow way down around walkers and give bicycles some space but I love to ride foolishly when I can only hurt myself. I can only imagine how much of ass of be if I was my teenage self on a fast wheel. 

If they made a wheel that wasn't allowed on bike trails and could only be ridden on the road like a moped it wouldn't be so fun anymore. If the current performance we have was still allowed on sidewalks and bike trails and there was second category that had to plated and follow the vehicle code I'd be all for that. Sort of Like the different classes of evokes we have. None would mistake an electric motorcycle for even a class 3 ebike. 

Good weather mitigation like a motorcycle and an inner metal frame with a lock point would make me feel a lot better about parking one outside too. People steel motorcycles all the time when they only immobilized amd not chained to something. 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

6 hours ago, Zopper said:

I don't think that EUCs should venture into motorcycle world for safety reasons (braking, approach to safety and limits by manufacturers is not even remotely good enough for 100+ km/h devices, ...), but ignoring that factor, we need to solve some issues before even getting there. For example: The machines are getting too big and heavy to carry home after each ride, so we need EUCs that can be parked outside 24/365, no matter the weather. And with proper security, be it a physical key, or just a nfc fob required to turn it on, because it has to survive unattended just like MC does. Or how are we going to get regulators to put stickers on it and give us licence plates, while not banning all EUC from sidewalks?

In short, MC-grade EUC is not just about MOAR SPEEED, MOAR POWER! There is a ton of implicit requirements and heaps of problems that we should resolve BEFORE we have the speed and power.

I've known people here who already won't buy small motorcycles (say 150kg or less) as two guys can pick it up & toss it in the back of their panel van in 5 minutes.  Doesn't matter if there is a software/hardware lockout as it will get chopped and sold for parts.

I don't think you'll ever be able to leave your EUC outside for any extended period of time until there are lockboxes everywhere that you can leave it inside (similar to like  bank vault).  They are just too small, portable, etc.

[jimjam.nyc]

5 hours ago, Zopper said:

I don't think that EUCs should venture into motorcycle world for safety reasons (braking, approach to safety and limits by manufacturers is not even remotely good enough for 100+ km/h devices, ...), but ignoring that factor, we need to solve some issues before even getting there. For example: The machines are getting too big and heavy to carry home after each ride, so we need EUCs that can be parked outside 24/365, no matter the weather. And with proper security, be it a physical key, or just a nfc fob required to turn it on, because it has to survive unattended just like MC does. Or how are we going to get regulators to put stickers on it and give us licence plates, while not banning all EUC from sidewalks?

In short, MC-grade EUC is not just about MOAR SPEEED, MOAR POWER! There is a ton of implicit requirements and heaps of problems that we should resolve BEFORE we have the speed and power.

I am def not advocating for EUCs to start hitting motorcycle territory. Everything you mention are perfect reasons why. I just feel there will be more than one category of wheel, and the thought of having a lightweight backpackable wheel that can also do 40+mph is a bit of a pipe dream.  I think its amazing we have PEVs that can pretty much go anywhere right now except for highway (even though you will see some people taking shermans on the FDR in NYC).

I just think it is reasonable to assume if you want something lightweight, super transportable, and last miley, you have that covered already. I just don't know how much more innovation is needed in that category. Do you go and add traction control and touchscreens and kickstands to something you use to trolly around town for a small amount of distance? At some point, price becomes an issue there. 

So advancements to me seem to mean pushing the heavier, faster, more feature filled wheels. I am not saying the lighter end wheels is a dead category. You can still add nice QOL features and make better wheels, but the price point is the main thing there. It has to be reasonable. But once you start tacking on more of these features these wheels by design will lose their ability to stay light and transportable.

as for MOAR SPEED. Unfortunately, with this form factor, adding safety, hill climbing ability, and even traction control means MOAR Battery and more powa. Which inevitably also leads to a faster wheel. Unless companies like Inmotion start knee capping speeds just to do it, you can't really advance without speed becoming higher as well. 

I have a feeling if companies start knee capping speeds, people will either find a way to hack the firmwares, or just stick to the one or two companies that don't take that approach. 

 

 

 

[PLEASE_DELETE]

Back on the v12 front - has anyone seen definitive pricing/release date?  Did I miss it in this thread?  I've only seen speculation....

[jimjam.nyc]

3 minutes ago, /Dev/Null said:

Back on the v12 front - has anyone seen definitive pricing/release date?  Did I miss it in this thread?  I've only seen speculation....

Not that I am aware of as of yet. Wouldn't trust something that comes out today being that its april 1st ;-)

[Simply_Striking]

42 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I just think it is reasonable to assume if you want something lightweight, super transportable, and last miley, you have that covered already. I just don't know how much more innovation is needed in that category. Do you go and add traction control and touchscreens and kickstands to something you use to trolly around town for a small amount of distance? At some point, price becomes an issue there. 

This right here. I think too many of us are looking for a single wheel to do everything. Light weight, secure, fast, stable at speed, nimble, long range, security, weather proof, submersible, blah blah blah. I am not saying it is a bad idea not to want everything, or manufactures trying meet those expectations, (or not in some instances), but sometimes our expectations do need to have a reality check.

[VikB]

57 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I have a feeling if companies start knee capping speeds, people will either find a way to hack the firmwares, or just stick to the one or two companies that don't take that approach. 

If I buy a new wheel it would be for more range not high speed. So if InMotion sells a great wheel with big batteries that is speed limited at a reasonable speed I'd be happy to buy it. Now I think you are correct some people wouldn't want that sort of speed limit and that's fine each brand/model doesn't have to appeal to the whole market as long as there are enough sales to justify its development.

[ChiWestSider]

I just wanna be 1 of the first people able to preorder this thing.  I need an upgrade from my V10F and I've held off on the Sherman for this.  Let me be first to buy this,  please!?!?!?

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

Unless companies like Inmotion start knee capping speeds just to do it, you can't really advance without speed becoming higher as well. 

I have a feeling if companies start knee capping speeds, people will either find a way to hack the firmwares, or just stick to the one or two companies that don't take that approach.

I don’t know how you’ve missed it, but GW (and it’s child Veteran?) has always been the only manufacturer that doesn’t cap the top speed of their EUCs. Everybody else has understood since day one what happens if you reach the max speed of a self-balancing vehicle.

Edited April 1, 2021 by mrelwood

[jimjam.nyc]

3 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

I don’t know how you’ve missed it, but GW (and it’s child Veteran?) has always been the only manufacturer that doesn’t cap the top speed of their EUCs. Everybody else has understood since day one what happens if you reach the max speed of a self-balancing vehicle.

I obviously haven't missed GW/BG or veteran. I don't think i worded my statement correctly. I am not speaking of tiltback limiting or safety measures in place to prevent cutouts. I was more talking if KS or IM were to take a wheel capable of doing 50mph and let's say limit it to 30mph just for because reasons. (way below cut out margins)

Then obviously there would be little to no point in going into the performance area and advertising a faster top speed wheel etc.. 

It is becoming clear that its making sense to start exploring that next category for companies like IM or KS. I am pretty sure KS will follow with something in a performance range soon. 

I think most people on this forum know which wheels to buy if they want to be able to shut off tiltback and things like that. I dont think that will ever change to be honest. I just dont see IM or KS giving you the options to do that.

but v12 and whatever KS has up its sleeve will def add competition to that performance market. To me its a win for consumers weather you like their brand of wheel or not. 

 

 

[houseofjob]

22 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

To be honest I am not sure how much you could improve on the lighter lower range wheels without busting into the next category. I guess you can add the better lights, screens and kickstands, etc. But at some point they will be too expensive for what they are needed for. 

If you’ve seen the innards of an iPS i5, you’ll see that one of the keys is to shave the weight of the metal motor covers, as the i5 forgoes those and houses the exposed stator and rotor assembly in the case directly (albeit not super successfully protecting from outside debris).

Maybe the stator circular plate can switch to lighter materials and have some cutouts as well, to decrease material(?)

Outside of that, yeah not a lot of places to shave more weight, as everyone uses lightweight plastic for the shell.

 

[Zopper]

57 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I obviously haven't missed GW/BG or veteran. I don't think i worded my statement correctly. I am not speaking of tiltback limiting or safety measures in place to prevent cutouts. I was more talking if KS or IM were to take a wheel capable of doing 50mph and let's say limit it to 30mph just for because reasons. (way below cut out margins)

How do you think that limitation would be done? It would be the same as today - ending up with a big tiltback and wild beeps once you reach the software limit. Practically equivalent to buying e.g. Sherm the limiting to ~30 mph. Which I would do, if I had Sherm. 

 

44 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

If you’ve seen the innards of an iPS i5, you’ll see that one of the keys is to shave the weight of the metal motor covers, as the i5 forgoes those and houses the exposed stator and rotor assembly in the case directly (albeit not super successfully protecting from outside debris).

Maybe the stator circular plate can switch to lighter materials and have some cutouts as well, to decrease material(?)

Outside of that, yeah not a lot of places to shave more weight, as everyone uses lightweight plastic for the shell.

I guess that the weight of the motor comes from the motor itself, not from the covers. They are just thin aluminium AFAIK. And sometimes it is plastic too. I mean, yes, the covers weight something, but weight is the second name of electric motors in general.  So the first step would be to use a lighter and more powerful motor tech - and I think that while it exists in principle, no one is making it in the configuration EUCs need. And only when shaving off few more grams, do something about these.

[houseofjob]

45 minutes ago, Zopper said:

I guess that the weight of the motor comes from the motor itself, not from the covers. They are just thin aluminium AFAIK. And sometimes it is plastic too.

Yes, it's not as much as stripping whole motor magnets, but it still has significant weight, because the motor needs to be isolated from the elements.

And I've never seen plastic EUC motor covers, ever, do you have a source to show this?

 

45 minutes ago, Zopper said:

So the first step would be to use a lighter and more powerful motor tech - and I think that while it exists in principle, no one is making it in the configuration EUCs need. And only when shaving off few more grams, do something about these.

What is the principle?

AFAIK, "more powerful" and "lighter" are complete opposites in motor design: more powerful motors need more windings, bigger magnets, ie. you cannot make a more powerful motor without increasing weight.

Edited April 1, 2021 by houseofjob

[meepmeepmayer]

10 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

AFAIK, "more powerful" and "lighter" are complete opposites in motor design: more powerful motors need more windings, bigger magnets, ie. you cannot make a more powerful motor without increasing weight.

Neither the magnets nor the windings seem to be the things that make up most of the weight of the motor. They look small and light in comparison. Of course I didn't weigh them, but to me it looks like the steel stator is the annoyingly heavy thing that could be improved. Not sure.

Edited April 1, 2021 by meepmeepmayer
There's always some dumb spelling error💩

[mrelwood]

2 hours ago, jimjam.nyc said:

I obviously haven't missed GW/BG or veteran. I don't think i worded my statement correctly. I am not speaking of tiltback limiting or safety measures in place to prevent cutouts. I was more talking if KS or IM were to take a wheel capable of doing 50mph and let's say limit it to 30mph just for because reasons. (way below cut out margins)

Ah, so you really don’t know.

The Inmotion V11 for example has a no-load speed of around 80km/h (50mph) with a full battery. They advertised and launched it as a 50km/h (31mph) wheel, because it has a programmed safety measure called a tilt-back that limits the rider from riding faster than 50km/h (31mph). This feature can’t be turned off. As the battery depletes and the no-load speed decreases due to the decreasing battery voltage, the maximum speed the rider is allowed to ride is being decreased (by software) as well. 

 

Quote

Then obviously there would be little to no point in going into the performance area and advertising a faster top speed wheel etc..

Of course. The advertised maximum speed is a speed that riders of all (allowed) weights are able to ride with a reasonable safety margin.

 The V12 is specified of having a max speed of 70km/h. And it will be software limited with a tilt-back the user cannot remove. A full battery no-load speed would then have to be closer to 100km/h for it to follow the traditional IM safety margin.

 I’m sorry if I sound condescending, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to be clear since some of this seem to be new info for you.

[houseofjob]

37 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

Neither the magnets nor the windings seem to be the things that make up most of the weight of the motor. They look small and light in comparison. Of course I didn't weigh them, but to me it looks like the steel stator is the annoyingly heavy thing that could be improved. Not sure.

But this doesn’t make sense.

The motor assemblies coming up from 1500 to 2000 to now 3000+ W motors, there is nothing different in the design except thicker magnets and more windings in the same motor volume space, but the weight increase is universal, as you go to higher wattage motors.

The steel stator is the same from the older motors to the new, no? At least visually, nothing seems different when comparing older motors to today’s higher power motors.

[jimjam.nyc]

22 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Ah, so you really don’t know.

The Inmotion V11 for example has a no-load speed of around 80km/h (50mph) with a full battery. They advertised and launched it as a 50km/h (31mph) wheel, because it has a programmed safety measure called a tilt-back that limits the rider from riding faster than 50km/h (31mph). This feature can’t be turned off. As the battery depletes and the no-load speed decreases due to the decreasing battery voltage, the maximum speed the rider is allowed to ride is being decreased (by software) as well. 

 

Of course. The advertised maximum speed is a speed that riders of all (allowed) weights are able to ride with a reasonable safety margin.

 The V12 is specified of having a max speed of 70km/h. And it will be software limited with a tilt-back the user cannot remove. A full battery no-load speed would then have to be closer to 100km/h for it to follow the traditional IM safety margin.

 I’m sorry if I sound condescending, that wasn’t my intention. I just wanted to be clear since some of this seem to be new info for you.

No need to apologize since you already know you sound condescending. ;-)  I am also not offended by anyone trying to correct me. So no worries here at all. 

I won't try and defend the fact that i actually do understand how an EUC functions and works. I am not trying to prove any points here. I was just having a discussion on why it would make little sense for any company to put out a 70lb 100v wheel, just to force limit it 30mph. When there are cheaper, reliable options at that level. It was more around if there is an actual need to keep refining older non performance wheels.. Not really around how tiltback works.. 

 

 

 

 

 

[mrelwood]

8 minutes ago, jimjam.nyc said:

No need to apologize since you already know you sound condescending. ;-)  I am also not offended by anyone trying to correct me. So no worries here at all. 

I won't try and defend the fact that i actually do understand how an EUC functions and works. I am not trying to prove any points here. I was just having a discussion on why it would make little sense for any company to put out a 70lb 100v wheel, just to force limit it 30mph. When there are cheaper, reliable options at that level. It was more around if there is an actual need to keep refining older non performance wheels.. Not really around how tiltback works..

Ok, I'm terribly sorry, I completely misunderstood your posts!

[yoos]

The tech to create a lighter yet fast EUC is apparently available but too expensive. I think it's feasible to produce a ~20-25kg EUC with 3kwh+ battery and 4kW+ motor, 80kmh "safe" top speed priced around 5000$. I guesstimate these specs by looking at super high end e-scooters made by RION. The Rion 2 RE weighs 27kg, with 3kwh battery (100V,  21700 cells), 20kw (yes, that is 20.000 watt although different sites list different specs), and a top speed of 130kph (software limited). Remarkably, the controller is rated 500amps. This is much higher than the typical EUC controllers can survive. The scooter employs active cooling iirc. Typically, eucs with comparable specs are lighter (and cheaper) than scooters, which is why an euc should boast even better specs/weight value. 

Anyway, the escooter market is vast which is why super-high-end scooters may find enough customers. The EUC market seems too small. Still I hope the V12 will bring something new to the table, even if it's only sophisticated lights and menacing whirring (will it attract or scare dogs? ).

For my use case the 16X is the best euc on paper, but poor lights and questionable weatherproofness stop me from buying. So personally, I don't need wheels to go further and faster, instead I wish them to keep the current specs but become lighter, more reliable and convenient. Perhaps the V12 will help rise the quality/convenience standards.