Popular Post jimjam.nyc Posted March 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 29, 2021 Also thinking these prices are placeholder. Nobody else has this up for pre-order. Ewheels is sponsoring a bunch of stuff for v12. I will hold judgement on price until more solid information comes out. In the end, if it's worth the price I will pay it. We will see. The speed is only one spec of the wheel, and not the one to buy it for. You have better options for speed only. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlasP Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) [oops] Edited March 29, 2021 by AtlasP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post AtlasP Posted March 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 29, 2021 (edited) On 3/29/2021 at 1:02 PM, mike_bike_kite said: I'd of thought if you're bring in a competitor to the Nikola+ then it would be wise to at least match the price. The 100v/1845Wh Nik+ launched on ewheels at $2550 pre-pandemic and nobody batted an eye. Instead Marty Got Backe & Mickey MousEVX each made commercials videos saying it was the best consumer wheel to buy/beat, and of all the things people questioned (namely the aesthetics and GlueGate round #<ilostcount>), nobody batted an eye at the price to any substantial degree that I can recall. That price dropped a bit over time but was still at least $2300-2400 until more recently when it dropped more substantially, most likely because they're looking to clear some of its stock before the V12 hits and challenges the same segment. The other half to this is to remember we're in a drastically different world economic & manufacturing situation right now with rising component (particularly battery) costs, and the V20 undoubtedly will have better general construction/QA than Begone as well as its better lights, etc. My prediction remains that it was originally planned to launch somewhere around the same as the Nik+ launch cost/around $2550, although with how things are going that could be $2650 or maybe a bit more now due to how things panned out the past year (compared to what they would have initially expected/been aiming for when first designing the thing pre-pandemic). On 3/29/2021 at 1:02 PM, mike_bike_kite said: The wheel looks fairly decent in the photo above but why would I want to pay that much for a wheel that goes way faster then I'd ever want to go? And why would those obsessed with speed want to buy a wheel that goes slower than the Sherman? Observe that the Sherman's price has increased to now $3200 due to the same aforementioned reasons. So the V12 offers higher speeds/higher safety margins than all-but-the-most-extreme-minority desires while still likely $500-700 cheaper than the Sherman, that seems like a pretty straightforward target market segment. (People still buy MSP/RS's & Nikola's instead of the Sherman--in fact I'm sure more people still buy MSP/RS/Nikola's over Shermans--cost differences like that are significant to a *lot* of people.) Edited March 31, 2021 by AtlasP 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PLEASE_DELETE Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 If this launches above $2500 this is a hard no-buy for me. $2k is already stretching it... 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted March 29, 2021 Share Posted March 29, 2021 1 minute ago, /Dev/Null said: If this launches above $2500 this is a hard no-buy for me. $2k is already stretching it... Agree. It's weird that EUC buyers seem to accept high prices for batteries when the rest of the market pays way less. Here's a recent report on Techspot MIT study shows plunge in lithium-ion battery cost over the last 10 years showing a current price of around $100 per KWh. 10 minutes ago, AtlasP said: The 100v/1845 Wh Nik+ launched on ewheels at $2550 pre-pandemic and nobody batted an eye. Those features were brand new then (3" tyre, manoeuvrable and 37mph) but that same wheel is available for way less now (I had one on order for $1800). And that's the price that the V12 will have to compete with. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post meepmeepmayer Posted March 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 29, 2021 19 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said: Those features were brand new then (3" tyre, manoeuvrable and 37mph) And 100V was the hot and new thing! 1845Wh 100V Monster cost as much as the 2400Wh 84V one. The V11 was/is very reasonably priced. I hope the best that means the V12 will be, too. 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unventor Posted March 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 29, 2021 Hmmm interesting to read how some have a big nay-hat down over their eyes while others think the V12 will be a perfect wheel. So devided about such a "simple" product. Also abother interesting thing is how far some twist tveir news flow and are ready to decided on a roumer that is yet not confirmed by other resellers. And that Inmotion have yet to release a public confirmation on the launching V12 specification. Yes I am aware some testers has a V12 to provide feedback to Inmotion and they are still under some sort of NDA. I can see why the V12 is appealing to some riders. But well I still find suspension on my V11 a lifesaver in so may situations that I would have to think real hard if I were to buy a new non-suspension model. But that is me and not all other riders by far. Now about the V12 vs V11 those are clearly not aimed for same target group as I see it. But the good question is what does this mean for the next wheels Inmotion are going to make. I do think we will soon see that enough data from pratical rides will make brands reconsider where they will put their focus. Big question is what direction they take. As a note I doubt the real hard core nay sayers are in here to contribute to a better product. So question here is if it is important to listen to them if you are up to buy a new wheel. Since so few have tested a real V12 yet and no real reviews are up yet. Now what @mrelwood wrote of action taken by IM to make the V11 better or resolve some issues, I do think that is a fair point. And yes not all things are solved on the V11 yet. But I am sure like he wrote work on this is ongoing and like other brands we don't hear about this in public until a remedy is found to the remaning issues. Unfortunately it has been very quiet from Inmotion lately. I do hope they will get back to interact and communicate with the community again. Yet abother . 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Unventor Posted March 29, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 29, 2021 Ohh and I do think that should @houseofjobget a chance to review a V12 that could be entertaining. What he would say about it, I have no idea. But despite him and I like products for different reasons, I always found the reviews he did to bring something new and interesting. I shall not mention names but a few other youtubers are in the game to earn money. It shows in their stuff. But they are just like a commercial. I can view this anywhere, but they do not make me decided if I want a product. And commercial have very little interest to me. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waulnut Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, meepmeepmayer said: And 100V was the hot and new thing! 1845Wh 100V Monster cost as much as the 2400Wh 84V one. The V11 was/is very reasonably priced. I hope the best that means the V12 will be, too. I agree. I wouldn't mind downsizing to a v12, but if the price is more than my RS significantly, its hard to bite. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post houseofjob Posted March 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Unventor said: Ohh and I do think that should @houseofjobget a chance to review a V12 that could be entertaining. What he would say about it, I have no idea. But despite him and I like products for different reasons, I always found the reviews he did to bring something new and interesting. I shall not mention names but a few other youtubers are in the game to earn money. It shows in their stuff. But they are just like a commercial. I can view this anywhere, but they do not make me decided if I want a product. And commercial have very little interest to me. LOL aww shucks, thanks Yeah, I kinda stopped doing the rounds of YouTube demo wheel reviews partly cuz I felt the soul-sucking impartiality life coming out of me. No matter how much you like the vendor and they say they give you license to be impartial, you still kind of feel compelled to say good things, out of gratitude, combined with the desire to be fed more demo wheels. Yeah, I'm not doing that any more, if ever I get back to vids, I'd rather just buy the wheel outright for review, then sell it if I don't like (a big reason the last 16X vid on my channel was more other guys talking about it, was because I wasn't really into that wheel LOL). The V12 does have my interest a little piqued, but it's gonna be a hard sell next to something like the Nikola (which I still like, tho not one of my ATF wheels) due to: first 100V InMotion: Unless they masterfully learned the mistakes from early Gotway 100V (*cough* cooling *cough*), I don't like being a test dummy for such a huge new factor / upgrade attempt for a manufacturer like 100V is (Veteran doesn't count cuz they came from the Gotway 100V days). The V12 cooling design does not inspire confidence here (read: cooling design is a step less important for 84V wheels IMHO) Classic InMotion Throttling: I didn't pay attention to the spec leaks, but there def has to be some kind of throttling in there, which I was never a fan of; I'd rather they just have no throttle and up the 0% battery voltage shelf, like Gotway does. Still f*kin heavy wheel to lift up, one of my main complaints about the Nikola, ie. carrying it up stairs. What happened to the days when 16" was a compact class? Why do I need another Fat 16, don't we have 18" plus for that? Looks damn ugly (subjective, yes, I know). If/When Mickey does a group ride, perhaps I'll venture out to get a feel for my mental EUC archives. Like always, what will make-or-break the wheel for moi, will be the soft mode (instant buy, all is forgiven, if this me-too fatty wheel has OG Gotway style soft!) Now, if only IM would refresh one of my EUC first loves, the now 5-year old *welp* V5F+ (altho, please no super fatty 80lb next gen V5). Edited March 30, 2021 by houseofjob 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simply_Striking Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 Is it possible that the shell is metal...... Trying to figure out why this thing is so heavy... I think that would also promote a premium price as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Zopper Posted March 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2021 3 hours ago, Simply_Striking said: Is it possible that the shell is metal...... Trying to figure out why this thing is so heavy... I think that would also promote a premium price as well. Begode Nikola Plus weights 27 Kg. And that's basically just an empty shell with batteries. The 2kg more V12 should have is not that much difference. A bit more material here and there, a beefy light with its own heatsink, batteries encased in their own watertight boxes, and a few similar changes and you get the 2 kg. 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Heyzeus Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 1 hour ago, Zopper said: Begode Nikola Plus weights 27 Kg. And that's basically just an empty shell with batteries. The 2kg more V12 should have is not that much difference. A bit more material here and there, a beefy light with its own heatsink, batteries encased in their own watertight boxes, and a few similar changes and you get the 2 kg. If only I could get the supposed specs of the v12 in a wheel the size and weight of my ACM2, plus solid water resistance, I'd be smitten. I suppose the limiting factor there is battery tech where the weight of the batteries needed to reliably deliver the power needed for speeds of 60-70kmh can only go so low. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post AtlasP Posted March 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Heyzeus said: If only I could get the supposed specs of the v12 in a wheel the size and weight of my ACM2, plus solid water resistance, I'd be smitten. I suppose the limiting factor there is battery tech where the weight of the batteries needed to reliably deliver the power needed for speeds of 60-70kmh can only go so low. Damn physics getting in the way again...;-) It's definitely the combination of bigger, more powerful motors and bigger batteries which are by far the two heaviest components responsible--with no real solution in sight. (Unless/until one of those battery breakthroughs that are perpetually 3-5 years away...) Everyone parroted the "suspension adds so much extra weight" farce and the reality was that the difference in weight between the very similar V11 and 2200W KS-18XL is only ~2kg--utterly negligible. It's all motors and batteries that really matter. Edited March 30, 2021 by AtlasP 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zopper Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 10 minutes ago, AtlasP said: Damn physics getting in the way again...;-) It's definitely the combination of bigger batteries and bigger, more powerful motors which are by far the two heaviest components responsible--with no real solution in sight. (Unless/until one of those battery breakthroughs that are perpetually 3-5 years away...) Everyone parroted the "suspension adds so much extra weight" farce and the reality was that the difference in weight between the very similar V11 and 2200W KS-18XL is only ~2kg--utterly negligible. It's all batteries and motors that really matter. Yeah. When I was doing a Spring disassembly and cleaning of my V10 and I wanted to check if any water got to the battery compartment, I knew what to expect. But I have been surprised anyway at how light it is when I take out the motor and battery. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 16 minutes ago, AtlasP said: Everyone parroted the "suspension adds so much extra weight" farce and the reality was that the difference in weight between the very similar V11 and 2200W KS-18XL is only ~2kg--utterly negligible. It's all batteries and motors that really matter. Someone did an interesting breakdown of the weight of all the components in a typical EUC. I think the batteries were only around 10% of the overall weight. I guess that leaves the motor. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Kurtosis Posted March 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) According to https://www.fluxpower.com/blog/what-is-the-energy-density-of-a-lithium-ion-battery Quote Energy density of Lithium-ion battery ranges between 50-260 Wh/kg Even if we assume the top-level of 260 Wh/kg which almost certainly is for the most expensive batteries, a 1750 Wh battery would weigh 6.7 kg which is already over 23% of the weight. Edited March 30, 2021 by Kurtosis 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Gorcsi Posted March 30, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 30, 2021 34 minutes ago, Kurtosis said: Even if we assume the top-level of 260 Wh/kg which almost certainly is for the most expensive batteries, a 1750 Wh battery would weigh 6.7 kg which is already over 23% of the weight. V12 is 24s4p config which is 96 cell. One cell is 70g (21700 cell). The raw battery is 6.72 kg+ soldering wires bms etc.... 6.72 kg battery in a 29 kg weel. If battery tech improves and it will be only half the weight thats 3kg only. The real weight of the euc comes from the motor. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AtlasP Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said: Someone did an interesting breakdown of the weight of all the components in a typical EUC. I think the batteries were only around 10% of the overall weight. I guess that leaves the motor. You're likely remembering when Ewheels did it back in 2016 with a tiny 840Wh KS-16S ( https://ewheels.com/makes-electric-unicycle-weigh/ ), but that ratio would almost certainly be different today in modern wheels with batteries more than two or three times that size. My arbitrary guess for most higher-end wheels today is very roughly thirds--motor somewhere around/probably a bit more than a third of the weight (maybe approaching as much as half), batteries somewhere around/probably a bit shy of a third, and that leaves 'everything else' as the remaining third. Would be super curious to see someone like Ecodrift do a breakdown on a modern wheel. (Or don't they already weigh some components when they disassemble so someone could collate that data to figure out?) Edited March 30, 2021 by AtlasP 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mhpr262 Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 I cant wait for someone to build one of the new axial flux electric motors in an outrunner configuration and use it in an EUC. Those things ought to be massively superior performancewise to the current motors, and much lighter to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike_bike_kite Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 54 minutes ago, AtlasP said: You're likely remembering when Ewheels did it back in 2016 with a tiny 840Wh KS-16S ( https://ewheels.com/makes-electric-unicycle-weigh/ ), but that ratio would almost certainly be different today in modern wheels with batteries more than two or three times that size. I tried searching for what I remembered but failed so I guess my memory was playing tricks. I certainly don't mind being corrected though - weirdly it's happening more and more often these days which is a bit depressing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meepmeepmayer Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Gorcsi said: The real weight of the euc comes from the motor. Absolutely correct! It's the damn motors that are so (inexplicably) heavy. 1800Wh is 7kg, which is not the bulk of the weight of any of those wheels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurtosis Posted March 30, 2021 Share Posted March 30, 2021 2 hours ago, Gorcsi said: V12 is 24s4p config which is 96 cell. One cell is 70g (21700 cell). The raw battery is 6.72 kg+ soldering wires bms etc.... 6.72 kg battery in a 29 kg weel. If battery tech improves and it will be only half the weight thats 3kg only. The real weight of the euc comes from the motor. If battery tech improves and it will be one hundredth of the weight that's 60g only! Seriously though, a doubling in energy density of batteries isn't something to just throw around - it would completely upend the transportation world. If that actually happened there would be no more ICE cars and trucks on the road. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zopper Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 (edited) 9 hours ago, AtlasP said: My arbitrary guess for most higher-end wheels today is very roughly thirds--motor somewhere around/probably a bit more than a third of the weight (maybe approaching as much as half), batteries somewhere around/probably a bit shy of a third, Pretty much. Back of the envelope calculation points at V11’s battery being about 6kg (68.5g per cell, 4p20s, plus half a kg for wires, some battery electronics and wraps). Which is 22 % if I remember the total weight correctly. OTH, Sherman’s battery is about 12-13 kg I think and that puts it around 35%. BTW, Samsung 21700-50G has energy density about 257 Wh/kg, and those are (have been a few months back) among the best in this form factor. So current EUCs are at pretty much as good as they can be with current tech. Source. Edited March 31, 2021 by Zopper 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
conecones Posted March 31, 2021 Share Posted March 31, 2021 Damn that pricing is out to lunch. The V11 was priced so competitively compared to S18 and even the non-suspension 1500+Wh wheels like 16x...what happened IM?? My second Nikola+ just arrived and I see no reason to upgrade to V12. With all the price drops, this $1700 USD wheel from AliExpress just can’t be beat for value vs performance. 30 min tire changes, solid reliability record and good waterproofing...gonna be hard to beat. V12 better have some real surprises! Nice headlights and a touchscreen are great and all, but there’s enough price different here to buy yourself an Apple Watch and a professional flashlight/flood light that can wipe the floor with whatever is on the V12... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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