INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[Patrick Robert]

5 hours ago, null said:

What top speed people want available and what speed they generally rides are two different things.

Absolutely. The reason I bought the Sherman was never to ride it at 50 mph. Yes, apparantly there are some speed freaks and riders who like to push the enveloppe and ride the beeps (and not only in NYC), but that's not me.

Safety was my top concern. I like to ride comfortably between 25-30 mph, all the while knowing that even at that speed I can safely lean forward anytime to go faster since I'm far from the top speed. I feel much safer doing that on a wheel that can go 40 or 50 mph, compared to riding at 28 mph on a 30 mph wheel. The Sherman never beeps at me, all the way down to 15%, and I sooooo love that!

Until battery tech improves and we get can a single wheel that does it all (light and fast with amazing range), I think a good combination is to have a slower, lighter and funner wheel for shopping, commuting and tricks, and a fast heavy wheel for longer rides (and more stability on windy days).

[mike_bike_kite]

  

1 hour ago, Silver said:

Is it really so hard to believe that inmotion would make a fast wheel, that you're willing to come up with all of these reasons as to why inmotion are lying about the top speed?

I suppose you're also going to say that the wheel they send out to New York for all of the crazy speed demons to test is going to be one specifically manufactured for New York and the ones they'll ship out to customers are going to be slower for some reason.

I'm not saying they're lying. I'm simply saying, that if I ran the company, I wouldn't tell the opposition what I was producing. Especially after what happened with the V11 and the KS S18. If we have valid reports that the wheel is capable of 42mph then obviously I'm wrong. Who has actually tested the wheel and what have they said?

Edited March 20, 2021 by mike_bike_kite

[AtlasP]

On 3/19/2021 at 8:08 AM, WI_Hedgehog said:

I'll believe 43MPH when I see it. I can't see InMotion driving their motors into uncharted territory with a 40% speed increase over the V11--it's too much all at once. 15% speed increase? Sure. 20%? No. 40%?

Pure and absolute FUD.

It's not like they merely scaled up their previous tech to suddenly be 40% faster out of nowhere. This is a straightforward, categorical jump in power going from 84v to 100v, with a correspondingly straightforward, expected jump in performance characteristics. And those performance characteristics (84v vs 100v) are already clearly established by this point. Given the current state of EUC tech, there are objective reasons all the 84v wheels top out around 31mph/~maybe a bit more [if manufacturers eschew reasonable safety margins], and likewise most 100v wheels usually start topping out somewhere around 40mph/~maybe a bit more (excepting the newest class of much more expensive upper-40s/low-50s wheels which are an obvious special case).

Now of course for *any* wheel the "top speed" is not something one should expect to safely achieve/sustain, rather it is the boundary you should stay below. (So a 16X rated at 31 mph is fine for someone content in the 20s mph, a Nik+ rated at 40 mph is fine for someone content in the 30s mph, a Sherman rated at ~50 mph is fine for someone content in the 40s mph, etc.) But within this context, then at this point I see no reason to treat the 40+ mph claimed top speed on the V12 any differently/more suspiciously than those other claimed top speeds.

Edited March 27, 2021 by AtlasP

[Mango]

The look is growing on me. I may sell my v10f to fund this V12 purchase.

 

Since the V12, on paper, doesn't exceed the specs of any current performace wheel, the inmotion motor, 100v, 16" wheel size may prove it to be a very fast off-the-line wheel. The killer feature may be it's fast acceleration. May be an urban street beast.

[Silver]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I'm simply saying, that if I ran the company, I wouldn't tell the opposition what I was producing. Especially after what happened with the V11 and the KS S18.

They have to market it to consumers eventually, they can't just keep hiding the details of this wheel forever. Plus, it would just make them look bad if the released fake information about the speed because clearly a lot of people like the idea of a faster inmotion wheel.

[Flying W]

My last two wheels were gotway due to the performance head room. If I'm honest most of my cruising is around 25mph or on goat trails in the dirt at less than 10mph. It's nice to have the extra speed when you want too or need to go fast.

With inmotion getting into the game that was once all gotway it opens up the choices to better quality for people like me and that makes me Happy. 

I hope gotway/begode ups their game too!

[AtlasP]

On 3/20/2021 at 3:33 PM, Flying W said:

I hope gotway/begode ups their game too!

I think they've already revealed their hand for the foreseeable future, and "upping their game" doesn't appear to be on the list:

1. Buying the Solowheel patents to attempt to thwart competitor Veteran through patent litigation
2. A seeming lowering(!?) of their already worst-in-class assembly/production values resulting in a spate of recent fires, and prompting ewheels to seek an alternate source for battery packs for Begode wheels going forward
3. A series of $3700 behemoths that have reviewed terribly so far

This isn't even me being harsh. All of these things are simply & quite literally true.

Edited March 22, 2021 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

1 hour ago, Flying W said:

I hope gotway/begode ups their game too!

126V here we come!

Or not, who knows...

[Flying W]

47 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

126V here we come!

Or not, who knows...

I could see gotway just going bigger and not improving the shell, battery packaging, weather mitigation or wire routing....that would be SOP for them hahaha

[MR BRAD]

I think the comment that “no one outside of NYC wants wheels this fast” is laughable. One, it invokes a “black amd white” hyperbolic assertion. I don’t know  @mike_bike_kiteand would give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s merely exaggerating for emphasis and doesn’t suffer from the myopic view that the world of EUCs are divided into riders who crave speed (New Yorkers) and those who don’t (everyone else). By definition, anyone not “of” New York who craves “this” speed invalidates his premise as the cross section of “no one” is now populated by “someone” and his premise is a fallacy. Oh... there was a “two” to my point... I want more speed. Regardless of what the data of the EUC world app may suggest (and again, I’ll just assume that it’s correct and give Mike the benefit of the doubt... I mean absolutely no disrespect!!!) I think suggesting that a wheel should be speed limited by anything other that the technology available to allow for it is backward.
 

I can’t help but think that if we used the data of an aggregate average speed across the motoring public in the world (it’s 30 km/h or 18.6 mph) and accepted that as our benchmark for the upper limits of our vehicles we would have less drivers... 

Oh wait... maybe that’s not a bad idea! Ok  I want a wheel with “this” kind of speed and I’m not from or anywhere near NYC.  

 

[Halig]

I am curious about how they are going to solve the problem of the new mandatory CE marking in the European Union.

Theoretically, this year it has to be implemented in all EU countries and no EUC (no PLEV in general) can be manufactured, sold or used on public roads that does not comply with that EN17128:2020 standard. That standard lines the speed to 25 km / h, acceleration (not power) and many other construction and safety specifications.

The current mandatory CE marking is the same as that of an iron or a vacuum cleaner (basic electrical issue). In the new CE, the speed limitation will have to be "fixed" constructive by design; an app or buttons that the user can change is not worth it.

I hope that I am wrong and that my bad news information has another solution, because to me, any electric vehicle seems to me that it would have to be promoted, whatever it was.

COVID-19 is a joke compared to the climate change above us, which has gigantic inertia and is much closer to the first non-return point end than most people think (maybe 20-30 years)

Edited March 21, 2021 by Halig

[mike_bike_kite]

8 hours ago, MR BRAD said:

I think the comment that “no one outside of NYC wants wheels this fast” is laughable. One, it invokes a “black amd white” hyperbolic assertion. I don’t know  @mike_bike_kiteand would give him the benefit of the doubt that he’s merely exaggerating for emphasis and doesn’t suffer from the myopic view that the world of EUCs are divided into riders who crave speed (New Yorkers) and those who don’t (everyone else). By definition, anyone not “of” New York who craves “this” speed invalidates his premise as the cross section of “no one” is now populated by “someone” and his premise is a fallacy. Oh... there was a “two” to my point... I want more speed. Regardless of what the data of the EUC world app may suggest (and again, I’ll just assume that it’s correct and give Mike the benefit of the doubt... I mean absolutely no disrespect!!!) I think suggesting that a wheel should be speed limited by anything other that the technology available to allow for it is backward.
 

I can’t help but think that if we used the data of an aggregate average speed across the motoring public in the world (it’s 30 km/h or 18.6 mph) and accepted that as our benchmark for the upper limits of our vehicles we would have less drivers... 

Oh wait... maybe that’s not a bad idea! Ok  I want a wheel with “this” kind of speed and I’m not from or anywhere near NYC.  

 

Bit tough trying to work out what you're trying to say. Yes, obviously it was a sweeping generalisation, but the the numbers returned by the EUC World app were quite striking. It wasn't reporting average speed, it was the average maximum speed (original post is here). You guys keep saying you want more speed but the numbers returned by the EUC World app definitely suggest something different. I'm not against manufacturers producing high speed wheels but that will raise the price putting them out of most people's range and raise the weight making them less useful. You say you want more speed but, at the end of the day, you ride a V10F which means your chosen wheel has a top speed of 25mph.

 

[meepmeepmayer]

I wouldn't read too much into the EUC World speed statistics.

For every enthusiast on this forum, there's 3 or 5 people just bobbing around on a V8 or E+ or so. The average max speed may be low, so what! Doesn't mean anything. Demands on the specs are not determined by the average rider, but by the high demand riders.

Also, as we all know, faster wheels are safer wheels, whether you use that speed or not.

[jimjam.nyc]

If only NYC wanted higher speeds, then I don't think Sherman would have been as popular as it was.. your talking about a 3000 dollar wheel that a decent amount of people bought. I doubt all sales were just in NYC.

I welcome higher speeds, as long as other features and safety keeps moving fwd.

Looking at the v12, it seems they are still pushing fwd with other enhancements as well as speed. It's a win win

[GoGeorgeGo]

Personally i see EUCs diverging into two different communities right now. There is the ultra portable last mile commuter, which is what started the industry. Cheaper machines designed to be carried and stored and used casually.

But recently we are seeing an emerging new category, the road wheel. Something meant to be driven like a motorcycle of sorts among cars long distances at high speeds. This category just barely started maybe 2-3 years ago and is rapidly evolving. You could even really argue the sherman was the true start of this category, as the rss was not available in the USA where these street wheels have really gained favor, and wheels like the MSX where still lower range and more portable.  After riding the monster pro a little bit, i am confident you can go faster speeds than we even imagined possible on 1 wheel, and that a 150lb wheel is not out of the question. 

Edited March 21, 2021 by GoGeorgeGo

[PLEASE_DELETE]

I find it extremely frustrating that Inmotion is making the wheel I bought from Gotway 12 mo ago.

I was VERY happy with my V10 (even with "limited' range) but wanted something with more battery, same 16" size and 100v for more instantaenous power and headroom around 25mph.  I bought a Nik+ which came with 1/2 of the handle lift sensor broken out of the box that I never bothered to fix as I don't want to take the wheel apart.

  I rarely go over 25mph and typically cruise in the 18-23 range.  Inmotion is releasing the exact wheel I was looking for 12 months ago..

Edited March 21, 2021 by /Dev/Null

[Waulnut]

1 hour ago, /Dev/Null said:

Inmotion is releasing the exact wheel I was looking for 12 months ago..

Pretty sure everyone is looking for the future desired wheel to be released, but we got hundreds if not a few thousand miles during that period on our current existing wheel(s). 

I wanted a fast wheel coming from a ks18xl so I got an RS. Im grateful for no issues on the RS but I don't mind trading down in size for this. 

[Silver]

7 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

but the the numbers returned by the EUC World app were quite striking. It wasn't reporting average speed, it was the average maximum speed (original post is here). You guys keep saying you want more speed but the numbers returned by the EUC World app definitely suggest something different.

Those stats completely ignore what type of wheel the rider was using. If someone doesn't want to buy a gotway or stayed away from the new suspension wheels (with the v11s slightly higher top speed of 35mph). Or even has just been hanging on to their old wheel and riding that then the top speed they would even be able to hit while leaving a decent margen for safety is quite low. I have a RS HT and while I don't ever hit the listed top speed of 35mph on it (mostly stick below 32mph) that is because I want to leave a good buffer so I don't overpower the wheel (especially if the battery gets low) I have nosedived my onewheel too many times I don't want to do it on a unicycle, so I stay even below the beeps.

I would very much like a wheel that could go 40+mph so I can ride on the 35mph roads near my house without worrying about cutting out or being too slow and drivers trying to pass me.

 

My biggest point would be when I was riding a Onewheel my top speed was 18mph I bought my first euc and now it's 32mph what top speed you ride at is determined by what wheel you have. Every single one of those riders averaging 13 mph for their top speed could be aching to increase their speed or be perfectly content with the wheel they have The statistics alone mean nothing. 

7 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

but that will raise the price putting them out of most people's range and raise the weight making them less useful.

Cheaper, lighter weight, low range, and low speed wheels already exist and people already have them. Those people aren't going to be enticed to buy a new wheel if it's just what they have already but now it has a touch screen on it.

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Silver said:

Those stats completely ignore what type of wheel the rider was using...

You can easily infer the type of wheel from the length of the tour. He stated that for tours of over 50km (which requires a modern high end wheel) the top speed was between 26mph and 32mph.

1 hour ago, Silver said:

Cheaper, lighter weight, low range, and low speed wheels already exist and people already have them. Those people aren't going to be enticed to buy a new wheel if it's just what they have already but now it has a touch screen on it.

I have a cheaper, light weight, low range and low speed wheel. I'd love a wheel that can hit 30mph safely and has a little longer range. Unfortunately there really aren't that many about. The KS18XL is old hat and has a narrow tyre. The V11 is too fragile (for me). Modern Gotways either have 100v batteries which seem to be a fire risk or their bearings fall apart. The Sherman is just way too heavy and over the top for what I need (perhaps they should of called it the Tiger II). If the KS16X was safe at 30mph then I'd of happily bought that but in the end I bought a Nikola+ even though it was much heavier than I wanted and faster than I needed but I bought it because there really isn't much choice out there. Unfortunately (though perhaps fortunately) they couldn't deliver the wheel so I'm left still looking for a new wheel. The V12 might be the one but if I have to pay extra for a top speed I'll never use then I'll probably keep looking.

[Waulnut]

On 3/20/2021 at 11:55 AM, AtlasP said:

So a 16X rated at 31 mph is fine for someone content in the 20s mph, a Nik+ rated at 40 mph is fine for someone content in the 30s mph, a Sherman rated at ~50 mph is fine for someone content in the 40s mph, etc

This is the reason why I went with the RS from a ks18xl. I wanted to safely cruise high 20s knowing I got a decent buffer speed zone. 

It's not all about the top end riding the beeps, but the safe buffer zone. 

[Silver]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

You can easily infer the type of wheel from the length of the tour. He stated that for tours of over 50km (which requires a modern high end wheel) the top speed was between 26mph and 32mph.

That range would include the the ks 18xl and the ks 16x both of which aren't fast enough to go any fast then that safely so that would show to me that people are riding pretty close to the top safe speed.

 

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

The V12 might be the one but if I have to pay extra for a top speed I'll never use then I'll probably keep looking.

Most of the people here don't see it as paying for extra speed they see it as more of a buffer and not having to slow down when the batter starts to get low. You can disagree but saying that people don't want faster wheels (Here of all places) is going to end up with alot of people telling you otherwise.

[mike_bike_kite]

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do know what I want - a wheel that's capable of 30mph even though I'll normally ride slower, a wheel that's easy to trolley around when I'm out shopping and one that I can actually pick up without pulling my back. It also has to be rugged with decent lighting front and back. Sadly no manufacturer seems to produce it which is a shame as it seems a fairly "standard" need.

[Waulnut]

22 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree. I do know what I want - a wheel that's capable of 30mph even though I'll normally ride slower, a wheel that's easy to trolley around when I'm out shopping and one that I can actually pick up without pulling my back. It also has to be rugged with decent lighting front and back. Sadly no manufacturer seems to produce it which is a shame as it seems a fairly "standard" need.

Sounds like an mcm5 would be a good fit. Fairly decent top speed (high 20s if you're daring enough) for a 14in wheel with a strong motor in a small body. 

[meepmeepmayer]

There's really no point in building a slow wheel. See the V12's top speed as a welcome side effect of its 100V design. Higher voltages have pretty much no real downside (regarding performance), so 100V isn't necessarily just for speed. It's simply better and a natural next step, and you happen to get a higher top speed, too (or you could have better low-end torque with no top speed loss compared to 84V).

The V12's high top speed is there with no downside/tradeoff. It's fast, how nice - so what?

[MR BRAD]

12 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Bit tough trying to work out what you're trying to say.

 

I didn’t mean to be unclear. In sum, yes, I would like the headroom of safety afforded by a wheel with the capacity of going faster. Further, I would also like the absolute capability of a wheel that allows for higher maximum speeds. As for my ride; the V10, my first wheel, was what seemed to afford the best intersection of speed, safety and quality at the time of my purchase. While I have never regretted my purchase, I have, like many (note, I did not say “most” or even “like ALL NEW YORKERS”) wanted a faster wheel. 
 

I agree that with added features (one of which would be the technology to allow for higher speed)  the cost will suffer an uptick. And beyond the financial impact so too is the increased weight, decreased maneuverability, negative impact on range (all other factors remaining equal or constant). I appreciate that there is no such thing as “a one does all” product. As a motorcyclist, I don’t expect my work bike to perform the same way that my track bike does. It would be great if they did and all else remained the same; alas, ain’t gonna happen.

The use of data to define a segment is objective and I appreciate the idea that numbers can tell a story that is meaningful insofar as setting the market and development of a wheel. Ironic though that stats are invoked in the same breath as an allusion to speed limited by geography. Put another way, an appreciation or longing or even need for more speed is not confined to the five boroughs. I would characterize that suggestion as anything but objective or supported by data.