INMOTION V12 (pre-release)

[AtlasP]

Speaking of shape and impact on aesthetics, we have a pretty clear evolution with some clear principles emerging over the past couple generations:

• Round EUC bodies on larger, higher-end wheels are clearly a thing of the past as both battery sizes and speeds (therefore corresponding lighting demands) increase.
  • Larger battery packs necessitate larger, squarer battery compartments. (Unless you comically oversize the rest of the housing like on the Nikola which is full of empty space and far larger than it should be.)
  • Higher speeds necessitate better lighting, which requires lights to be as high as possible/near the top 'corner' of the wheel (instead of the 'front of the circle' like on older wheels such as the V8/V10/16S/18XL/Nikola/etc which is just too low to the ground for higher speeds).
• Nobody has achieved anything 'shapely/sporty' like the S18 on a remotely acceptable higher-end battery size (which the S18 simply is not at only 1100 Wh). This would likely require much more complicated physical battery configurations that I just don't anticipate seeing from current EUC manufacturers anytime soon.
• The question then merely becomes, "where do you put the square?" (+relative to the circle of the tire.)
  • On wheels such as the Sherman and EX.N, the large square housing is quite low relative to the tire such that the lower corners negatively impact ground clearance particularly on inclines including curbs/stairs. This might be acceptable on very large-battery, heavy, mostly straight-line & street-only cruisers, but is obviously lacking regarding more demanding riding scenarios.
  • Conversely the V11 and V12 raise the square housing such that its bottom starts roughly around the height of the pedal hangers, with a round semicircle below that just covering the spokes & hub of the tire. This was a radical departure when first seen on the V11, but now seeing it again on the V12 and also considering the reasons for this as well as experiencing the V11's superior lights & ground clearance/turning radius first-hand, I think it is clearly the way forward and will become increasingly common the next several generations.
  • One could argue the MSX line was the first to utilize this basic shape, although really it was/is somewhere between the Sherman/EX.N on one hand and V11/V12 on the other in terms of the position/height of its housing. But certainly the same general idea/direction if not as pronounced.

Ultimately I think InMotion is on the right side of history in the overall direction they're going here, with the biggest negatives being much more minor stylistic details that are secondary to this broader form/shape. So if you, like me, have some quibbles over some of those small aesthetic details/quirks, I can sympathize with that. But if you don't like the fundamental "round on bottom, relatively-square on top" design of both the V11 & especially the V12, then I think you'll likely need to get over it for the reasons outlined above. All hail "round on bottom, relatively-square on top". ;-)

 

 

Edited March 18, 2021 by AtlasP

[meepmeepmayer]

12 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

Nobody has achieved anything 'shapely/sporty' like the S18 on a remotely acceptable higher-end battery size (which the S18 simply is not at only 1100 Wh). This would likely require much more complicated physical battery configurations that I just don't anticipate seeing from current EUC manufacturers anytime soon.

The V11 has a single layer of cells on each side (unless I'm very mistaken). So for <2 cm/< 1 inch extra thickness on each side you could build a 3000Wh V11-shaped wheel.

So it can be done. You just need to be a little creative with how you use your space.

I don't think the square standardized packs as too bad as well, EUCs can still be more efficient with their interior volume with these (just look at all the empty space in the Gotways).

Agree very much with the rest of your post. As the required components (non-tiny battery packs, lights, ...) demand more space, naturally the wheel gets higher and fills in the space that's right there, so it gets rectangular there.

[Asphalt]

5 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Such user-adjustable riding characteristics, including the gradient selection for pedal hardness, have been in newer InMo wheels through the InMo app for years (at least V10[F] and V11, although not all options are in the older V8 or V5[F]--not sure about the V8F). There's nothing new there. (The joys of having so many people here who don't actually own/ride contemporary InMo wheels commenting on new InMo releases like they know what they're talking about....)

InMotion hasn’t created a compelling alternative for me since the V8, so yeah, I guess I’ve missed out on being part of such a welcoming InMotion community.

[Flying W]

@AtlasP30+ down to 30% would be great. 

@xiiijojjo I rarely ride under 50% on my rs too. Most of my long rides are off road where the speeds are much slower and  battery lasts a long time. The street rides are always much shorter. 

 

[Ben Hatfield]

21 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Is cooling really that much of an issue? The KS18XL has everything encased within the wheel and no venting but can happily cruise along at just under 30mph. The Nikola 100v also doesn't have venting either but can reach 40mph. We don't hear about overheating issues there. I appreciate Marty manages to overheat many wheels but he rides up mountains, in the desert, in the summer - I think it's fair to expect a wheel to want to cut out (not break but just tilt back and cut out). Why not stay with the setup where the heat sink is properly connected to the mosfets and then have the fins of the sink on the inside of the wheel where it's cooled by the rotating wheel. It works, it's cheap and it's fairly reliable. Otherwise you end up with designs like the hollow motor bearing which fixes issues we didn't actually have, adds to the weight, adds to the cost and breaks down continually.

yes - cooling is an issue.  I've overheated all my wheels on sustained mountain road climbs - except the S18, but I haven't had a chance to really test it out yet on sustained, steep rides yet.

I'm hoping this wheel has excellent heat management + the 100v 65-70kph performance, and the high accessible torque of a smaller diameter wheel. 

I seem to remember reading that the V11 can get really hot before it's in danger of overheating - hotter than other wheels.  Can anyone confirm this, and perhaps this would indicate good heat management on the V12?

[stephen]

V12 , 1800wh,2500w motor, 4 sets of lights, 4 speakers, and a 16" wheel this thing will have some torque Oooh! And goes over 30 mph just in case you forget about speed and reach 30 , I like the design and I think 16" is a great all rounder for urban or offload/ hills etc , I like the design, my fave wheel is 16x I find 18" is OK if you just travel alot, 16" has the nimbleness and acceleration (more fun) just might sell my v11 to buy it,, looking forward to this wheel

[Meserias]

even I have quite big battery on my MSS I also don't ride too often below 50% battery. That's why I consider having a good large battery will provide torque for some fast accelerations in the city.
Also, interested about this wheel I hope will not be too expensive...
Did I mention that I have listed V10F for selling ?...

[mike_bike_kite]

1 hour ago, Ben Hatfield said:

yes - cooling is an issue.  I've overheated all my wheels on sustained mountain road climbs

But is yours a typical use case? Should every urban commuter wheel be designed to scale Everest? Adding that extra cooling will add to the cost, it will add to the complexity which in turn reduces the reliability and adding more venting in the wheel also makes the wheel more susceptible to water damage. Is that a price every rider should pay to allow you to ride up a mountain?

I'm obviously not saying you shouldn't ride up mountains but perhaps you could either stop for a coffee break every now and then. Alternatively you could add a vent in the case low down on the front and another higher up at the back to get rid of the hot air. You could also add extra fans to pull the air through the system to keep everything cool.

Oddly most wheel cases are smooth which means they have the smallest surface area to get rid of heat. Would adding ribbing to wheels like the Nikola or the KS18XL increase the speed it can get rid of heat? How does heat escape on a wheel without venting? Anyone got an IR camera?

[Ben Hatfield]

54 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

But is yours a typical use case?

perhaps not - but it is typical for me, and really, I was just using that type of ride as an example.

the fastest/easiest way I have found to overheat a wheel is to do hard accelerations followed up by hard braking, over and over again - on a level surface.  Or - do the pendulum move over and over (really cranking the transition).  I don't recommend either - but both are a fast way to overheat a wheel.  City riders do a lot of hard accelerations and breaking - and I've seen youtube videos of people needing to let their wheels cool down on urban rides.

I do see your point - on averages - But I'm looking at heat management kinda like upper speed limit.  More head room the better, just for consistent safe riding

[gon2fast]

InMotion, you started the topic, chime in please. We are roughly a week from April which is a month before your expected ship dates. Consumers need more information now.

[AtlasP]

1 hour ago, gon2fast said:

We are roughly a week from April which is a month before your expected ship dates.

Source?

[onizukagto]

2 hours ago, gon2fast said:

InMotion, you started the topic, chime in please. We are roughly a week from April which is a month before your expected ship dates. Consumers need more information now.

I think it's faster and easier to just ask @evX_Mick then to get anything out of Inmotion right now. haha.
After all, it seems liek inmotion is copying kingsong (i.e. Kujiroll/KS18), by asking some of the more active/public EUC youtubers to test/help out the v12 prototype. I think madpack is the other tester? could be wrong.

[jimjam.nyc]

6 hours ago, gon2fast said:

InMotion, you started the topic, chime in please. We are roughly a week from April which is a month before your expected ship dates. Consumers need more information now.

I don't think you will get much more info out of anyone on this until the videos come out. This was very much an exercise in generating hype. For inmotion, evx's youtube channel and ehweels.

I don't know even if there is anything much left to spill other than some details on how the wheel behaves, some cool footage, price, and when to order.

Suspension wheels were different, there was some new things and unknowns going on there.. 

This seems like a more standard wheel. 

There may be some software and nice quality of life things up it's sleeve.. but let's see!

 

 

[Tasku]

I am still quite curious to hear what EvX has to say about product details. I know he has talked about the smart battery management system (smart BMS) and this could be in the wheel, I do not know but hope it will be covered. Also the cells they use are not mentioned. There are some potential anti-theft references, such as screen lock. But this could be more of a limiting factor, that adults can use to make sure kids do not drive faster than settings allow. I seen some think that it could have tracker, but I do not see anything that points to such. Weird. I doubt FCC would have missed this.

Again I do not know, just trying to point out that I have many questions left in my mind. Like what battery they use? Will they tell us what quality grease they use in bearings? The motor seems to perform amazing, would love to hear from people who designed it. How easy is it to change tire? What can you do with the app? 

Would be fun to know what questions other community members come up.

Edited March 19, 2021 by Tasku

[WI_Hedgehog]

On 3/17/2021 at 2:25 PM, AtlasP said:

Couple that with InMotion releasing a 40+ mph wheel, and the "conservative InMotion" trope is seeming outdated fast.

I'll believe 43MPH when I see it. I can't see InMotion driving their motors into uncharted territory with a 40% speed increase over the V11--it's too much all at once. 15% speed increase? Sure. 20%? No. 40%? Can't see it happening from the company that built a reputation on consumer safety.

I can see them doing 35 MPH and having an "unlock" feature that allows the user to bypass the safety, but not them releasing official documentation stating a top speed of 70km/hr (43.4 MPH).

I think Gotway got the alarms right, and if InMotion would add progressive pedal tiltback at 3-beeps this is the way to go. (I remember hearing, "Oh no! 4 beps!" from several videos right before a cutout & slide...InMotion could change that to a continuous tone (flat-line), that's be the cat's sphincter.)

 

Some of the best lines ever (yes, from Poland! --of course!):

You know, after that Wrong-Way video we need another Polish joke!

A Russian border patrol walks down the line, expecting a quiet evening when suddenly he sees something dangling from a tree. Someone hung himself. Right there. At the border. He calls his partner. "Ivan? Come quick, there's someone hanging from the tree! Someone committed suicide right here at the border!"

"What? Oh please no! The paperwork! And in 30 minutes we'd be relieved and I want to go on vacation. C'mon, help me, we take him down and hang him over to the Polish side, let them deal with the guy!"

And they do. They cut down the corpse and carry it over the few yards past the border to tie him back up onto a Polish tree. Quickly they walk on and finish their patrol.

Not even an hour later, a Polish patrol comes along. The guard sees something dangle in the wind, he pauses, stares at it wide eyed and yells,

"I can't believe it! Miroslav, come quick! He is back!"

(LOL)

 

 

Great "land torpedo" video:

 

Edited March 19, 2021 by WI_Hedgehog

[Planemo]

34 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

(I remember hearing, "Oh no! 4 beps!" from several videos right before a cutout & slide

To be fair most if not all of the 80% beep crashes I have seen (for those riders that heard them) is where the rider has still been accelerating heavily at the time.

34 minutes ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

...InMotion could change that to a continuous tone (flat-line), that's be the cat's sphincter.)

...and hence why even a continuous tone won't make any difference to the nutters.

[gon2fast]

12 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Source?

No, it's not a rumor. Our engineers are still working hard on the development. We can definitely expect it before June. 

Comment below to share with us  what will you expect for the V12.

[FullTilt]

5 hours ago, WI_Hedgehog said:

I'll believe 43MPH when I see it. I can't see InMotion driving their motors into uncharted territory with a 40% speed increase over the V11--it's too much all at once. 15% speed increase? Sure. 20%? No. 40%? Can't see it happening from the company that built a reputation on consumer safety.

I can see them doing 35 MPH and having an "unlock" feature that allows the user to bypass the safety, but not them releasing official documentation stating a top speed of 70km/hr (43.4 MPH).

Interesting. I'm actually wondering if they'll revise upwards rather than down, like the V11.

While it takes strong conviction and vision to create new markets, when a market trend backed by market demand becomes clear, the only question is speed of adaptation if a company has any ambition to grow.

When Apple created the category of the modern smartphone, it held a strong conviction backed by solid research that a 3.5" screen was the ideal size for most thumbs in single-handed use. But market trend (competition) and real demand (sales) led to ever increasing iPhone screen sizes, despite more instances of dropped phones and cracked screens. 

I remind myself that Gotway was up until recently the lone visionary in terms of pushing the limits on speed with its niche of 100V wheels. Now with Veteran's wildly successful debut of it's widow-maker 50mph wheel and even Kingsong's nipping at the heel with it's next bone-cracker wheel rumored to be 100V, it would actually be a conservative move for Inmotion to offer freedom of speed rather than challenge the new normal and mandate a lock-down (with or w/o possibility of unlock).

The choice to go 100V is Inmotion tipping their hand. If 35mph were the goal, 84V would be more than adequate and reuse of the V11's motor would make a lot more sense. 

While a reputation (for safety, or anything positive really) can create customer loyalty, it doesn't necessarily guarantee growth of market share, which arguably should be the singular focus in a nascent market that is acquiring new customers rapidly. Last year, despite feedback and research indicating old customers favored getting back the choice of a smaller form-factor, abysmal sales of the iPhone 12 mini showed that actual demand backed by the dollar was simply not there. When give a choice, they overwhelmingly chose the regular 12 over the 12 mini, despite the ample screen real estate of the mini. I think it's something to do with the feeling that one's sacrificing something, the skewed perception of a product when contrasted with other options, the keeping up with the Jones' comparison dynamic, or a mix of the above. Keep in mind the "mini's" 5.4" screen is essentially the same size as the "+" models that people ate up and thought was more than big enough a few years ago (the body has even shrunk with a tighter screen-to-body ratio, which makes it even better).

Anyways, if I end up getting the V12, I know logically I probably won't be full-sending it often, if much at all. But I understand why "31-35 mph class" wheels now appear less attractive to me emotionally. Not that there won't be sensible people who will buy only what they need (and we need them if the lower tier market segments are to develop). But like the 12 mini buyers, I'd bet their numbers will be on the decline given the macro trends. Sadly, word is the 12 mini could be the last mini.  

Edited March 19, 2021 by FullTilt

[Kurtosis]

1 hour ago, gon2fast said:

No, it's not a rumor. Our engineers are still working hard on the development. We can definitely expect it before June. 

Comment below to share with us  what will you expect for the V12.

I mean, I can expect it now... 

[gon2fast]

Just watched Duf's recent posting. Super excited that swappable battery packs are possibly a reality with this wheel!!! Not feeling so bad about selling my kid's wheel to fund this one LOL.  

[mike_bike_kite]

14 hours ago, FullTilt said:

The choice to go 100V is Inmotion tipping their hand. If 35mph were the goal, 84V would be more than adequate and reuse of the V11's motor would make a lot more sense. 

Maybe, after KS copied the specs of their last wheel, they are just sending out bad information for KS to try and copy. Nobody outside of NYC wants wheels this fast - Seba gave a report from his EUC world app showing what speeds most riders ride at and it was nowhere near 30mph let alone 40mph. It makes way more sense to build on what they have and just go for a non suspension V11 (the V12) that just has a bit more range and a lot more ruggedness. If it doesn't have a rear light though, it will be pretty useless on the roads.

[null]

53 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Nobody outside of NYC wants wheels this fast

That’s a big assumption.
What top speed people want available and what speed they generally rides are two different things.

Edited March 20, 2021 by null

[Rawnei]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Nobody outside of NYC wants wheels this fast - Seba gave a report from his EUC world app showing what speeds most riders ride at and it was nowhere near 30mph let alone 40mph.

Stockholm riders love speedy wheels. 😁🥳🎉

[mike_bike_kite]

3 hours ago, null said:

What top speed people want available and what speed they generally rides are two different things.

You make a fair point. I did find Seba's post and it said the typical max speed recorded by his app was 20mph. It crept up to a max of 30mph for those riding long distances, presumably on larger wheels. Perhaps the cheapest solution is to just say the wheel does 42mph and assume that no-one will ever find out that it doesn't.

[Silver]

1 hour ago, mike_bike_kite said:

Perhaps the cheapest solution is to just say the wheel does 42mph and assume that no-one will ever find out that it doesn't.

Is it really so hard to believe that inmotion would make a fast wheel, that you're willing to come up with all of these reasons as to why inmotion are lying about the top speed?

 

I suppose you're also going to say that the wheel they send out to New York for all of the crazy speed demons to test is going to be one specifically manufactured for New York and the ones they'll ship out to customers are going to be slower for some reason.