EUC Open Source Controller Board

[Mystamo]

Hi All, 

Moving in from the Firmware topic into its own topic for Open Sourced Hardware.

Over the next little while I will move all the content from Firmware onto this post. 

I've been working on Reverse engineering the Gen2 boards as a starting point for development. Should have that done and posted today. 

We hope to be able to use the same Git to do both Hardware and Firmware advancements. I will post the important links as they come to this page. 

Lets keep the topic to Hardware. Although I have a Mechatroincs background my firmware skills are limited so we will definitely need some support from our Firmware buffs. 

Welcome to the topic.

 

Mo

[lizardmech]

I'm trying to get one produced in china. I'm waiting for them to get back to me with a price estimate and feedback from their engineers.

If that fails my other plan is to adapt this project to EUC use. Its already 90% perfect for the job, it just needs a MPU6050, a few more ports that the EUC use and few components changed to allow 100V support for ebikes and 67V EUC. I don't think it's layout is suited to mass production so the thing holding me back is a new layout to take to a PCB factory. Currently I would have to rely on freelance engineers from china or russia if I want to modify this one. http://vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/

[zlymex]

Using screw mount for motor output seems to be a good idea as they replace the "fly-joints". However, care must be taken to ensure reliability and minimum contact resistance.
The motor current is not constant and have peaks may much larger than that of the DC input owing to PWM and DC-DC effect(at slow speed when climbing). On of my friend burn the motor joints of his IPS 122 when uphill.

 

[lizardmech]

11 hours ago, zlymex said:

Using screw mount for motor output seems to be a good idea as they replace the "fly-joints". However, care must be taken to ensure reliability and minimum contact resistance.
The motor current is not constant and have peaks may much larger than that of the DC input owing to PWM and DC-DC effect(at slow speed when climbing). On of my friend burn the motor joints of his IPS 122 when uphill.

 

I saw one board using them already somewhere but I lost the picture and have been trying to find it again. I think it might have been a kingsong euc. I had to remove the TI DRV8302 from my board sadly as it is limited to 60v. I think the only way around that is to use a few separate ICs to replace it.

[zlymex]

On 2015/12/18 at 10:25 AM, lizardmech said:

I saw one board using them already somewhere but I lost the picture and have been trying to find it again. I think it might have been a kingsong euc. I had to remove the TI DRV8302 from my board sadly as it is limited to 60v. I think the only way around that is to use a few separate ICs to replace it.

KS 14B

 

 

[lizardmech]

I have been looking at this IC to heavily reduce controller complexity. It basically replaces all the mosfets and most of the components required to drive them with one chip capable of over 400V and 75A. This one uses IGBT but I don't have any experience with those so I don't know if there's a large trade off . Anyone more familiar with them?

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=STK5F1U3E2D-E

[DebboR]

On 18-12-2015 at 2:58 PM, lizardmech said:

I have been looking at this IC to heavily reduce controller complexity. It basically replaces all the mosfets and most of the components required to drive them with one chip capable of over 400V and 75A. This one uses IGBT but I don't have any experience with those so I don't know if there's a large trade off . Anyone more familiar with them?

http://www.onsemi.com/PowerSolutions/product.do?id=STK5F1U3E2D-E

They don't seem to be that common to find, so they can be hard to find a replacement for once it goes EOL. Also, don't you think $28 is quite high for something that is basically just 6 MOSFET's with their required driving circuits? Finally, I would vote for a design that would have as few protections (OCP, OTP, OVP, UVP, ...) as possible, or at least let them be handled in code by the main controller (just to bring the faceplanting chances to a minimum, even when this means running some components over-spec temporarily).

[OliverH]

On 16. Dezember 2015 at 1:45 PM, lizardmech said:

I'm trying to get one produced in china. I'm waiting for them to get back to me with a price estimate and feedback from their engineers.

If that fails my other plan is to adapt this project to EUC use. Its already 90% perfect for the job, it just needs a MPU6050, a few more ports that the EUC use and few components changed to allow 100V support for ebikes and 67V EUC. I don't think it's layout is suited to mass production so the thing holding me back is a new layout to take to a PCB factory. Currently I would have to rely on freelance engineers from china or russia if I want to modify this one. http://vedder.se/2015/01/vesc-open-source-esc/

How much money do we need to make changes? Any list of topics and calculations of costs? We raise a fund if no one has the necessary skills or resources.

An open source HW shouldn't rely on others IP. How to make sure that this don't happen?

Can you plan SPI connectors? => for safety reliable EUs two redundant boards powering two logical/ physical stators. => street legal for some countries in Europe

[lizardmech]

I have been working on it with some freelance engineer from russia but hes taking his time. We decided it was better to just to separate the unicycle control parts from the the open source VESC controller. The VESC software already has a torque based drive mode and CANbus support, by leaving it separate the software wont need to be forked and it can be sold and used as a generic ESC for many things. The main issue is getting the VESC PCB laid out in a way suited for production and upgraded to handle higher voltages. The DRV8302 must be removed and replaced with a few more individual ICs.

After some research CANbus is the best option, costs a few dollars per board for a transceiver but it has so many advantages it's worth it long term. DJI is using it on there recent drone parts and it can be both daisy chained or connected via hubs. 

 Once that is done I can just get a few prototypes made in china for testing. I have been setting up a company while I'm waiting this week, hopefully it wouldn't take long to get to the stage where I can mass produce them and sell them via a webstore with other EUC parts and accessories.

IP shouldn't be an issue, both VESC hardware and software is creative commons and isn't made using the ST motorcontrol software or anything.

[Berus]

any news ?

however there are IC driver like apex sa303/sa306 60volt 10A/17A PEAK with a very low low price

"Thermal and short circuit monitoring for the SA303HU is provided, which generates fault signals for the microcontroller to take appropriate action. Additionally, cycle-by-cycle current limit offers user programmable hardware protection independent of the microcontroller. Output current is measured using an innovative low loss technique.

For example, should an over-temperature or short circuit occur, the SA303-IHZ will not shutdown the outputs, but instead, allows the system to continue running while it signals the external controller to take corrective action. In most cases, the processor can correct the condition by utilizing software to remedy the external interrupt."

other interesting things that I found

http://www.ddc-web.com/Products/277/Default.aspx?gclid=CJ7ozOf9psoCFRYUGwodZVwN9w

http://www.willfj.com/bldc-controller-v01/

 

*edit : about price maybe i'm wrong .. I have see the price of sa303 ihz  ..that I can't understand if its the same.

[lizardmech]

I almost have the BLDC controller ready for prototyping. It has a new mosfet driver that supports up to 600v. I have to test it and see if it needs much work on the software to work with common EUC motors. If there's no problems I can just move onto getting the balancing software made, it's easy enough to just use a development board or compact linux pc to develop it, there's no need to produce the central control board until the software is ready. 

[chriscalandro]

Just seeing this for the first time. 

 

I don't think putting the hall sensors in the same cable as power is a good idea. High voltage and current may cause bad hall readings. 

[chriscalandro]

Also, I believe that St chip should be powerful enough to cover temp overheats / etc in software. 

 

That is a military grade motor controller and is way to bulky and expensive. 

 

Software and temp sensor should do the trick fine. 

[lizardmech]

It shouldn't be too big.

 

[Donald1800]

On ‎1‎/‎29‎/‎2016 at 6:19 AM, chriscalandro said:

Just seeing this for the first time. 

 

I don't think putting the hall sensors in the same cable as power is a good idea. High voltage and current may cause bad hall readings. 

Agreed - in fact, if mounted remotely, a shielded cable may be necessary.

[OliverH]

6 hours ago, Donald1800 said:

Agreed - in fact, if mounted remotely, a shielded cable may be necessary.

But that's the way the current EUs are build. All cables together through the axle.

[Berus]

@lizardmech  I don't want go OT .. but we are speaking about  euc controllers, and this the first time that i see something like this

http://world.taobao.com/item/526320030076.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w25148-8563864019.9.tcfzfg

I can't understand if is a full controlle+ liquid cooling or only liquid cooling

[Berus]

edit : I see that there is stm32f10 ..so maybe a full controller ..very nice

[OliverH]

1 hour ago, Berus said:

@lizardmech  I don't want go OT .. but we are speaking about  euc controllers, and this the first time that i see something like this

http://world.taobao.com/item/526320030076.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w25148-8563864019.9.tcfzfg

I can't understand if is a full controlle+ liquid cooling or only liquid cooling

Does it have a gyro? Is it self balancing electric vehicle or only electric vehicle (motorbicycle)?

[lizardmech]

12 hours ago, Berus said:

@lizardmech  I don't want go OT .. but we are speaking about  euc controllers, and this the first time that i see something like this

http://world.taobao.com/item/526320030076.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w25148-8563864019.9.tcfzfg

I can't understand if is a full controlle+ liquid cooling or only liquid cooling

Pretty much the generic EUC controller without a gyro inside a water cooled case. You would need to add your own pump, reservoir and radiator to cool it.

[zlymex]

17 hours ago, Berus said:

@lizardmech  I don't want go OT .. but we are speaking about  euc controllers, and this the first time that i see something like this

http://world.taobao.com/item/526320030076.htm?fromSite=main&spm=a312a.7728556.w25148-8563864019.9.tcfzfg

I can't understand if is a full controlle+ liquid cooling or only liquid cooling

I believe these contollers are for ECs not for EUCs.

[lizardmech]

Almost finished the BLDC part, just need to get someone with PCB layout experience to check I didn't make any major mistakes and then order some prototypes.

[electric_vehicle_lover]

I really like that you are using the OpenSource KiCad software for the design. Aren't you sharing your sources? is this project OpenSource?

[lizardmech]

I'll try and get repos set up for it soon, I just did it myself so far. Probably the versions I end up getting produced won't be much use for open source but I think I can make a sort of reference design using a traditional PCB for people who want to make their own and open source that. I have to think about which license it's released under, because EUC companies appear fond of vague patents I probably need some clause forbidding them from targeting others using the same hardware if they want to use it. 

[OliverH]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creative_Commons_license

You can say public, non commercial use. So you can still sell a license to a manufacturer. If someone still use it without paying a fee you can't reSlly sue him in China, only get the products seizure at customs as importing.

The new safety/ technical requirements from the European Union working group will show anyway that having the technology is only one part selling the product in the future.