Raz's Monster Pro battery fire

[RagingGrandpa]

Location: Poland

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oa79go_aUfc
https://www.facebook.com/groups/1115649585491136/permalink/1554534158269341/
https://www.facebook.com/groups/MonocykleElektrycznePOLSKA/permalink/3274954719272179/

Reported information:

• Non-production EUC (demo)
• Total mileage:   ~150mi
• Battery:   4x 900wh packs, each 24s2p LG M50T, with unknown history (not newly produced)
• When did the fire occur?:   During transport inside a passenger car.
• When was the EUC previously used?:   ~15 minutes earlier, with aggressive acceleration and braking. Cold weather; wet roads.
• The cells nearest the control board were the most severely damaged.
• Smoke odor reported ~5 minutes prior to fire.
   

Edited January 12, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[null]

effing batteries..

Looks like he got it out quickly, or there would have been more melted plastic.
Hope we get to the reason for this (as well as the previous recent fire).

Edited January 12, 2021 by null

[RagingGrandpa]

Perhaps someone can translate?

 

[SorenStarr]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Perhaps someone can translate?

 

Unfortunately I can't help with translation... If this is a pre-production Monster Pro it could be possible that this in another case of the wheel shorting out because of improper cleaning procedures after completing the soldering on the control board. That's why the NYC Monster Pro blew it's board. It's likely a little metal shaving caused an arc on the board. This seems to be a worst case scenario.... 

[RagingGrandpa]

Sounds like a board failure and subsequent shorting managed to cook a cell, with root cause outside of the pack... fuses would likely help here.

[Scottie888]

I remember watching Kuji Rolls charging a wheel in a steel safe in one of his vids & laughing a loud at that. Now I know why😮

[Lukasz]

Those battery packs were with unknown history - and they may have been highly unbalanced. Adding to that high speed tests and low temperature - it was the recipe for disaster.  Please do not generalize this situation into all wheels. The root cause does not seem to be on the GW (Begode) side  

Edited January 12, 2021 by Lukasz

[Paradox]

 

[RagingGrandpa]

7 minutes ago, Lukasz said:

may have been highly unbalanced. Adding to that high speed tests and low temperature

Sure- if the packs were 'fighting eachother' during high-discharge usage, they'll run hotter...

It makes me unsure of the initial cause of the fire- were the cells slowly cooking themselves up to runaway temperature over a 20 minute period... or did shorting outside the pack put a huge load on the already-warm cells...

[Lukasz]

4 hours ago, SorenStarr said:

Perhaps someone can translate?

I can translate - this issue happened on last Sunday mid day on the A2 highway close to Warsaw, Poland - this is the coincidence of unfortunate and fortunate events. Wheel had been loaded to the trunk after power-demanding  high speed tests, and issue may have developed due to the main board failure or through the temperature of the pack getting to high due to high current which may have influenced weaker cells (as packs were not from this wheel originally. 

Raz noticed the smell but initially he did not realize that this may be from the battery, but he slowed down and stopped on the emergency lane.

Thanks to quick reaction, extinguisher and quick removal of the wheel from the trunk destruction was relatively minimal. 

Please do not generalize into all wheels being "all wrong" this situation was very specific. 

[Lukasz]

3 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

It makes me unsure of the initial cause of the fire- were the cells slowly cooking themselves up to runaway temperature over a 20 minute period... or did shorting outside the pack put a huge load on the already-warm cells...

It will be difficult to find the what was the real cause, but it seems to be more "cooking" scenario in my opinion.  

[houseofjob]

One incident is an isolated one, but if it happens to a couple more units and this thing is only in preview mode after months of delay after delay, that is a bit eyebrow raising in my book 🤨

 

[Scottie888]

While I understand & agree with the need for more safety features to be built in, aren't these Mpros' pre-production units? If @Lukasz info on the polish test unit Mpro having an unknown history (whatever that means) is correct, then one unit burn up due to faulty batteries of "unknown" origin & the NYC's unit's mobo had a fit. 

Hmmm didn't the much hailed Veteran Sherman (again pre-production unit) also failed Marty's stress hill test & also burnt a mobo? Looked far worse than the NY unit on Marty's take apart vid. In short, its best if we reserve judgement til some concrete comes out. IMO ofcos

[houseofjob]

4 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

While I understand & agree with the need for more safety features to be built in, aren't these Mpros' pre-production units?

You're kidding yourself if you think there's much difference between "pre-production" and production; that term is just what western forum riders call it.

If it has all the trimmings and is being sent out for demo, it's pretty much production, no company has ever drastically changed things from this phase, especially not costly things like the mold or the motor manufacture so late in the game, only minor firmware tweaks and peripheral stuff.

 

4 hours ago, Scottie888 said:

Hmmm didn't the much hailed Veteran Sherman (again pre-production unit) also failed Marty's stress hill test & also burnt a mobo? Looked far worse than the NY unit on Marty's take apart vid. In short, its best if we reserve judgement til some concrete comes out. IMO ofcos

Vet case was easily explainable (overamp with wires not enough gauge, not enough overamp protection, etc), while these 24Pro cases are not so much AFAICS.

It's amusing to me that guys are still treating this like the old Gotway, pre-Veteran, ie. before all the talent jumped ship, food for thought. 🤨

Edited January 13, 2021 by houseofjob

[Scottie888]

25 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

You're kidding yourself if you think there's much difference between "pre-production" and production; that term is just what western forum riders call it.

If it has all the trimmings and is being sent out for demo, it's pretty much production, no company has ever drastically changed things from this phase, especially not costly things like the mold or the motor manufacture so late in the game, only minor firmware tweaks and peripheral stuff.

 

Vet case was easily explainable (overamp with wires not enough gauge, not enough overamp protection, etc), while these 24Pro cases are not so much AFAICS.

Fair 'nuff. I fully admit I'm far from being knowledgeable on these matters. I've no skin in the game as I don't own an Mpro nor do I have it on order or even have any intentions of ownership. RS or even EX, maybe but Mpro, for sure not. Polish incident aside, I'm just curious why one incident is being excused & forgiven while another similar incident (superficially at least) is being deemed as the 3mile island meltdown.  

Not questioning anyone here but just being a curious george as all. Do we know conclusively what happened to the NYC unit?

[houseofjob]

26 minutes ago, Scottie888 said:

Fair 'nuff. I fully admit I'm far from being knowledgeable on these matters. I've no skin in the game as I don't own an Mpro nor do I have it on order or even have any intentions of ownership. RS or even EX, maybe but Mpro, for sure not. Polish incident aside, I'm just curious why one incident is being excused & forgiven while another similar incident (superficially at least) is being deemed as the 3mile island meltdown.  

Not questioning anyone here but just being a curious george as all. Do we know conclusively what happened to the NYC unit?

It's been said before, but Marty's hill is not really a real world norm test for like ~98% of what regular riders ride in, ie. majority of riders aren't trying to mountain climb with their wheels, which it basically seems to be; it's an extreme test on purpose. Most wheels haven't survived it, but while yes the Vet should have had a better overheat shut down response, it was completely predictable, explain-able. 

These 24Pro issues, particularly the NYC case, I really cannot explain. No stock wheel should just start smoking from simply jumping and landing it.

What does concern me, in general, with these new Gotways with higher power motors, more packs in parallel (increased amp firing), and extra hard mode tuning (hard modes mean less forgiving on overamp spikes), is that they're still sticking to one soldered power cable coming off the board, when a.) high power vehicle wiring is always crimped, not soldered (less chance that high amp temps will loosen the solder and cause havoc), and b.) some of the other makers have wised up and divided the battery wiring amp load to 2 wires coming off the board (Vet, V11), so you halve the current at each connect, lessening the risk of all the power rushing to only one wiring on the board and frying the MOSFETs along with the capacitor(s) next to it (not to mention the batteries in a 2 board connect configuration, are not just daisy chained again into one big current bottleneck terminating power cable).

Edited January 13, 2021 by houseofjob

[Tawpie]

Modern no-lead solder also has a tendency to develop microcracks due to its composition. It bothered me back when the push to remove lead from electronics was starting because the reduced reliability of the lead free solders was so well understood that medical devices and military equipment were exempted from the requirements for many many years. We were knowingly and purposely mandating the production of inherently less reliable product (and more e-trash) to cut 1/10th of 1% of the industrial lead from the waste stream. Lead is bad stuff without a doubt, but it seemed like the downsides weren’t factored in.

This is an operating environment where fairly high-g vibration and impact are always present. I would like to think that the designers prioritize these factors but do expect that economics carry a good deal of weight.

Of course we must remember that EUC designs are far from mature so we get to pay the early adopters tax. It’s what we get for having so much fun.

[.....]

I still buy lead solder. Sucks that it doesnt mix, so yuo have to remove/wick the bullshit brittle shit off thats in use nowadays.  Anyhow, I just popped in to say this..

I was always taught and have ALWAYS maintained that solder is NOT a mechanical connection. Solder is an electrical connection. ALL wires that are subject to vibration or any tension, need have a mechanical connection along with the solder. I was one of the very few techs that had copper staples in my town. Hell, noone knew wtf they even were! A single crimped band where wires connect and then soldered and then shrink wrap, to complete a cable to cable repair. For terminating ends, I used crimp connectors with sleeves removed and soldered, then slid vinyl shrink tubing to complete. Look around your vehicles, you wont find a factory connection that hinges solely on solder. Circuit boards are soldered then epoxy coated and have wire strain relief. Theres a reason its that way. The reason our euc's arent always that way is simple.  less cost and theyve nearly no liability. Honestly, ALL the euc companies have been very lucky so far. I will admit that I was a wee bit impressed with the connections and coating on the sherman mobo, tho it also wasnt perfectly secured and overly designed either.

Edited January 13, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I still buy lead solder.

Me too. Its all I will use. Getting bloody expensive though.

1 hour ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Honestly, ALL the euc companies have been very lucky so far.

I would have to disagree that ALL of them have been shite. The Z10 had excellent cable managment, routing and stress protection. Not to mention properly encased battery packs, rigourous case construction and decent, ample fasteners. Oh and proper waterproofing. The thing is built like a tank, presumably because the engineers (I dont use that word lightly, but they clearly were, unlike most of the muppets involved in other wheels) designed it to have the best chance of staying together at the crash speeds it is capable of, and not vibrate itself to bits like an old 500cc 2 stroke motocrosser.

And they did that years ago.

So yes, I agree that the current crop of manufacturers need a lot of education in terms of build quality (Gotway being the worst) but its not like we havent seen properly constructed wheels before.

[.....]

3 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Me too. Its all I will use. Getting bloody expensive though.

I would have to disagree that ALL of them have been shite. The Z10 had excellent cable managment, routing and stress protection. Not to mention properly encased battery packs, rigourous case construction and decent, ample fasteners. Oh and proper waterproofing. The thing is built like a tank, presumably because the engineers (I dont use that word lightly, but they clearly were, unlike most of the muppets involved in other wheels) designed it to have the best chance of staying together at the crash speeds it is capable of, and not vibrate itself to bits like an old 500cc 2 stroke motocrosser.

And they did that years ago.

So yes, I agree that the current crop of manufacturers need a lot of education in terms of build quality (Gotway being the worst) but its not like we havent seen properly constructed wheels before.

Apologies, I stand corrected. I should know better than make any absolutes in statements, as I am too ignorant to make such bold claims. Amazing how old tech gets 'upgraded' isnt it?    Cardas Quad ftw!!

Edited January 13, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, Planemo said:

The Z10 <was good>

... but despite all its design rigor, the community declared it to have terrible reliability

  

10 hours ago, houseofjob said:

the NYC case, I really cannot explain

An explanation was offered: metal debris inside the shell dislodged by (riding) causing shorting of the control board. Sounded plausible, anyway.

Edited January 13, 2021 by RagingGrandpa

[null]

11 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

... but despite all its design rigor, the community declared it to have terrible reliability

Very sad case of "large company doesn't care to follow up", where as GW, with all their design approximations, manage to get a stable product by adjusting over time..

[houseofjob]

1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said:

An explanation was offered: metal debris inside the shell dislodged by (riding) causing shorting of the control board. Sounded plausible, anyway.

LOL wow, sounds like a wheel I'm dying to buy 

[meepmeepmayer]

8 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

LOL wow, sounds like a wheel I'm dying to buy 

Can't wait for the EcoDrift disassembly pictures of the Monster Pro. I hope it's better than the EX...

[Mrd777]

well at least Begode knows about it, Their response copied as a comment on the two fires:

"Regarding this matter, we cannot find out the exact cause of the accident. We also attach great importance to this matter. The technical department has done in-depth research and discussion on this incident. The cause of burning is multi-layered, and there are problems with the product itself, as well as problems during use. But we can only look for potential defects from ourselves, improve our quality control, optimize software, etc. We are sorry to cause you worry and trouble. We believe these are temporary problems. We will not be timid and give up because of the current difficulties. We are already working hard on the road to solving difficulties..."