Does Veteran have a tire problem? Tire off the rim?

[Mango]

There was a slight wobble when I first rode it but it didn't bother me too much. I think after about 500 kms, the wobble went away. I have one of the earliest batches of Shermans, but maybe later batches Veteran have slightly different rims?

I have over 5,500km on my Sherman, and have not even taken off the tire valve cap. Thusly, I don't even know what the factory tire pressure but I have squeezed the sides and from experience, it is likely at 30psi which works for me. The knobby and rim combination works very well out of the box and I have had no issues with unseated tires. The tread is holding up really well. I think I could go another 5,000 kms before needing a tire change.

I really don't think this rim/tire combo unseating issue is endemic to the Shermans. I guess from my experience, it has been absolutely reliable.

When users start mucking with different tires (eg Kuji Rolls street tire) and trying to solve their slight wobble issues is when things start to go wrong.

[.....]

2 hours ago, Daley1 said:

If u read the forums and watch u tube long enough ,u can c that the Shermans have tyre issues.Not all of them and not all the early ones.Right outta the box mine had excessive speed vibration at between 35kmh and 45kmh.After mucking about trying to manhandle/manipulate bulges i think i have got this issue licked.I,m not convinced yet as i have still have to get over the mental hurdle of pushing this vehicle over 55kmh.Previously it tried to throw me and then jump on me and tried to Fxxk me.I believe mine had a bulge where the tube exits the wheel.The valve stem from the tube was not allowing the tyre to sit deeply enough into the rim.Deflating,breaking the bead and then riding the wheel at 5-10psi pushed the tyre past the valve stem lip and then the ride was better.This is ur first and best course of action.As for Ewheels sending new rims and asking customers to tear their wheels down and fit it themselves,what world are they living in??.If they are selling products with faults then its their problem to fix and not the customers.

E-wheels verified this as well. I guess its an issue but doesnt seem to be effecting all the wheels. Must be more of that GREAT quality control. Hopefully if anyone has a wheel with this issue, it will present itself in a minor manner and itll be LONG before warranty expires. Someday we'll have euc's that we dont worry about QC. I'm betting its going to be around the same time that world peace and perfect equality happens. You know, since all three are just as likely. hahha

[Planemo]

6 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

E-wheels verified this as well. I guess its an issue but doesnt seem to be effecting all the wheels. Must be more of that GREAT quality control

Probably more to do with the riders. Hard carving and hanging off whilst doing so is what stresses tyres. I ripped up the shoulders of my H5102 doing this in less than 700 miles. Other riders have 10k miles on their 5102 before replacing it.

In any event, no matter how hard you ride, a tyre should not come off the rim unless its virtually flat. No if's, buts or any other bullshit excuse.

If @Mango hasn't even taken the valve cap off in 5,500km then I would assume they aren't a hard rider (forgive me if I'm wrong) because every rider I know that pushes their wheels checks pressures regularly and religiously. I do this because I know for a fact that I can tell when my 5102 is anything more than 2psi out.

[Planemo]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

 I guess when the only thing on the buffet table is shit, and you're hungry enough, youll take a plate full.

100% bud. Without question, there is a market out there for a wheel with all the best bits of GW, Inmotion, Veteran, Kingsong and Ninebot.

It wouldn't be cheap, and therefore niche, but I am absolutely confident that there would be enough of a market to sustain the business model.

Hell, if I had the collateral I would have a go myself. This is far from rocket science.

[RetroThruster]

So can you visually see that the tire is too big for the rim when inflated, like seeing the bead of the tire above the rim?  IMO, retailers/and the manufacturer should issue a "stop ride now" alert for the Veterans immediately.   I have the knobby tire version on pre-order as I type this, if this wheel is effected and I get confirmation that I would in fact be looking at a rim replacement down the road, I'll be cancelling my order. 

[rexdelmolvo]

I've been lucky, I'm in the same batch as Fiori (with a Kenda knobby tire) and I haven't had any issues. I will be intensively checking my tire for signs of any issues, though

[Planemo]

6 minutes ago, RetroThruster said:

So can you visually see that the tire is too big for the rim when inflated, like seeing the bead of the tire above the rim?

I should bloody hope not.

By that point you are well beyond the danger area. I dont know what the actual tolerances are, but I would like to see at least half of the bead in the rim, bearing in mind ALL of it should be in the rim.

[.....]

1 hour ago, RetroThruster said:

So can you visually see that the tire is too big for the rim when inflated, like seeing the bead of the tire above the rim?  IMO, retailers/and the manufacturer should issue a "stop ride now" alert for the Veterans immediately.   I have the knobby tire version on pre-order as I type this, if this wheel is effected and I get confirmation that I would in fact be looking at a rim replacement down the road, I'll be cancelling my order. 

I am always one for a kneejerk reaction, I may have done it this time as well. It is entirely possible that this is NOT a common problem and its a very low percentage that shows it. I agree with Planemo, a tire should stay seated unless its used improperly. I have confidence in e-wheels and my warranty. Its almost routine for me to check my tire more often than not. SO far, I have seen no problem with my tire and its beaded equally all the way around. There is a little lateral runout of the rim, and a little of the tire, but it is completely expected and of acceptable amount for now.  For us ewheels customers (retro), I wouldnt let this slight possibility, slow me down at all about buying a sherman. If it fits a need you have, just do it, and get ready for a unique ride. I'm riding revision 1, we are well past that now anyhow.

Edited January 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[mrelwood]

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

How difficult is it to measure the outside diameter of the rim, the inside diameter of the tyre and then subtract one from the other to make sure theres enough rim to support the bead?

Words fail me.

Without ever even seeing the Sherman, my guess is that the outer diameter of the rim isn’t the issue here.

When the tire bead bulges out from the rim, the issue is most likely that the exact opposite side of the rim allows the bead to go too deep. The outer diameter of the rim doesn’t affect that, it’s about the diameter of the section on the rim that is supposed to support the bead. That section is too small on pretty much all EUCs: The rim doesn’t center the tires properly, which is why a manual reseat is in order. Which is a common process with EUCs, and never done on other vehicles.

 If I had the Sherman, as a first aid I’d use multiple layers of thick tape at the inner rim edges to make it a larger diameter, like this (I’d buy a narrower tape though):

(EDIT: Some tire liner strips might work for this as well.)

 

Quote

I'd blindly place a $500 bet that my rim isnt even 18".

You’d win. It’s roughly 14.5” on all 18” EUCs. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by mrelwood

[Fiori]

My honest opinion is that a lot of people have this issue and they just haven't looked. I don't think most people lift up the wheel and spin it to make sure it's true, they just ride. Ewheels told me that they ordered 100 rims, that info alone tells me there's definitely a widespread issue. When I deflate the tire I can visually see it's too large for the rims bead. This is why people get it straight and then it becomes wobbly over time(like Wrong Way mentions in his reviews). The tire just slowly gets pushed up the bead. For this same reason I can't recommend people lower the tire pressure to 5-10 psi then ride to try to seat it or push the bead in because it's just going to push the ground side in and the top side out, pretty convinced this is what caused mine to pop off. Like in this shitty greatly exaggerated photo i drew from my phone: 

What I will say is that since I last set it, it hasn't moved in 150 miles. Trust me I read all the reviews and watched all the videos. I just think that something capable of going 50 mph should have a bead that properly seats the tire in the center properly. I feel that if it's this finicky to seat then any large jarring action or bump could cause a perfectly seated tire to become not so perfect. and since mine has popped off once and locked the wheel up it's pretty hard for me to find trust in this thing.

 

I've mounted hundreds of car tires and it's never ever been this difficult. I've tried to get it perfect at least 10 times. I have it rideable at this point, and I honestly don't feel it at all when riding, I can just see it. But it's not to a point where I'm happy with it. 

 

The mechanic in me wants to see this wheel spin perfectly true. But I've been looking at a lot of videos of EUCs and this seems to be run of the mill. It's definitely worse on the Sherman than others though. 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Fiori

[.....]

30 minutes ago, Fiori said:

My honest opinion is that a lot of people have this issue and they just haven't looked. I don't think most people lift up the wheel and spin it to make sure it's true, they just ride. Ewheels told me that they ordered 100 rims, that info alone tells me there's definitely a widespread issue. When I deflate the tire I can visually see it's too large for the rims bead. This is why people get it straight and then it becomes wobbly over time(like Wrong Way mentions in his reviews). The tire just slowly gets pushed up the bead. For this same reason I can't recommend people lower the tire pressure then ride to seat it because it's just going to push the ground side in and the top side out, pretty convinced this is what caused mine to pop off. Like this shitty greatly exaggerated photo: 

https://imgur.com/gallery/F5iC2vM

What I will say is that since I last set it, it hasn't moved in 150 miles. Trust me I read all the reviews and watched all the videos. I just think that something capable of going 50 mph should have a bead that properly seats the tire in the center properly. I feel that if it's this finicky to seat then any large jarring action or bump could cause a perfectly seated tire to become not so perfect. and since mine has popped off once and locked the wheel up it's pretty hard for me to find trust in this thing.

 

I've mounted hundreds of car tires and it's never ever been this difficult. I've tried to get it perfect at least 10 times. I have it rideable at this point, and I honestly don't feel it at all when riding, I can just see it. But it's not to a point where I'm happy with it. 

 

The mechanic in me wants to see this wheel spin perfectly true. But I've been looking at a lot of videos of EUCs and this seems to be run of the mill. It's definitely worse on the Sherman than others though. 

I'm not sure that 100 rim order for a retailer the size of e-wheels, can automatically be assumed a 'widespread problem'. My correspondence with e-wheels (i won't post it here), suggested otherwise. Would they tell me any differently tho, bizz is bizz! They have also been known to stock parts just to stock them. I have no idea the number of failures (tire) vs sales, but I'm hoping its small. One would think that if it indeed a problem, you would KNOW its a problem w/o even looking. If its a smooth ride and you didnt look.. what's the problem exactly?

I don't doubt yours is giving you a total fit. It could very well be that your rim is grossly under sized and your tire a tad over as well? Having a mere decade worth of mounting car, truck, bike tires, I can't even imagine how an euc tire could be worse than some of the rusty steel or cracked alloy or low profile vietnamese tires. Talk about a damn nightmare at times. Something must be BAD wrong and I'd find it hard to trust the wheel too, if the tire popped off and locked up the wheel. This is obviously a big problem on yours. RIding lower pressure is totally NOT the answer. Of course, riding too hig a pressure aint either. Be sure to check that rim bead every ride for a while. Hopefully its an uncommon issue. The fact that a tire can come off bead and not be flat, at all, gives much credit to @mrelwood saying it could be the inner bead is too narrow and one side walks into the rim. Keep an eye on it for sure. If it happened to me just once, I'd DEFINITELY be looking at another tire and rim. Some petty things can be overlooked, but a properly used and inflated tire leaving a rim, should not be one of them

Edited January 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Fiori]

@ShanesPlanetReally hope you are right and it's not widespread. I was just under the impression that they don't really sell a lot of these wheels as its such a niche market. I assumed the sales for Shermans were probably in the hundreds not thousands. But maybe they only have 10-20 with issues and they bought the other rims as stock for accident ect... But they did say that centering the wheel was a pretty common issue they were seeing. Motorcycle and car tires are always weight balanced and center checked on a balancing machine(as it seems like you know all too well ). PEV world just seems to ignore this procedure completely. Every electric skateboard tire I ever used was horribly out of balance too. 

@Mango5,000km without having to touch anything sounds amazing. That's the quality I was looking for so at least someone got it!. But the Kujirolls street tire is the stock street tire for the Sherman now, it's not like its an aftermarket weird sized tire or anything. Sherman is shipping wheels with that tire. It seems like people who are getting the worst of the issue see it regardless of tire make and model. We will need more data to know for sure though..

@Daley1I watched literally almost every sherman video on youtube before I ordered. I did see mentions of slight tire wobble, but I didn't see any mentions of failure like me and a few others have had. Actually, the only reason I even inspected the tires trueness when spinning was because of mentions of it from this forum and on youtube. And most of the people that mentioned the issue brushed over it pretty fast, which made me think it was just a minor inconvenience that I could fix easily by centering the tire in 5 minutes and being done with it. I tried the 5-10psi procedure almost immediately and It did not help at all, if anything it made things worse. 

@RetroThrusterWhen its just slightly inflated I can moved the tire up and down on the bead, which tells me there is play and its loose(so yea i can see it for sure). When I spin up the wheel by lifting it I can feel the out of balance tire vibration. If I knew about this ahead of time I would definitely want to know if it has the updated rim before ordering. 

@mrelwoodThanks for the input I may try the tape if needed. I actually didn't know that it was common practice on EUCs to have to meticulously center the tire, that's interesting. I didn't see any posts or extensive conversations here about how to manually center it. I have never had to do anything like this with motorcycle or bike tires. I just feel like manual centering for things that spin this quickly will likely never be perfectly true. 

Anyway, I hope this can all just be chalked up to a bad batch of rims(or tires or both idk) that went out with poor tolerances and I just got the worst of it(wouldn't be the first time i drew the lucky card). Maybe my tube had gotten pinched somehow and it was a freak accident and I am possibly just being hypercritical.  

So far all the work I've done has been without disassembling the wheel. When my Michelin tire comes in I will tear the wheel down and get to actually inspect this thing up close. I want to make sure the rim is very clean inside because that can cause a lot of seating issues. I'll be documenting the disassembly and replacement with some youtube videos as there isn't a whole lot of Sherman wheel change/teardown content out there yet. 

 

Thank you to everyone for your input.

 

 

 

Edited January 6, 2021 by Fiori

[Fiori]

I should also note that I got it as straight as possible using this method from @FLRocketMan (ewheels also sent me this info and photos as well). 

• Lower the pressure to just a few pounds (enough to keep the tube puffy).
• Go around the tire bead and make sure it is free of the rim and that the tube is not pinched. This will allow you to easily move the tire and tube in or out on the rim as necessary.
• With the wheel laying on its side, place a straight edge (a carpenters square works well) on the floor perpendicular to the tread. Place the straight edge in slight contact with the highest spot on the tread. Look between the tread and the straight edge for high or low spots as you rotate the wheel.
• Pull or push the tire and tube to center as best as possible(as you rotate the tire, make the gap between the straight edge and tread have as little variance as possible).
• Inflate.

[.....]

This is not an uncommon 'problem' for euc's. Yours and others may be worse, but I also made a video of how I had to recenter the bead on my luxuriously smooth rolling 18. I say smooth rolling, but it dont mean perfectly straight. The specs for these wheels arent extremely tight and its just kind of a dice roll. We arent talking the liability, speeds or tech of modern vehicles. 'balancing' a wheel would be fairly difficult. I guess a person could statically balance one with the motor removed entirely. Of course, static balance doesnt help much as speeds increase. Balancing wont help with the runout or tire hop. To dynamically balance (as modern auto tires are) an euc, it would be a pretty nifty but niche tool and method. I cant even fathom how to balance a rim with motor in it. I guess it would be the same, but youd have to have the motor removed and be prepared for serious weight. Im betting they dont WANT to even check for balance or runout, as then they would have to rectify any that didnt make the cut. From what i can tell, WE get to do the testing, and rectifying it is tough. Im sure they are losing less $$ in returns and repairs, than they would by adhering to tight tolerances and QC.  Oddly enough, I can't find a single shop within 100 miles, that uses jack stands, torque sticks/wrenches, or properly balances a standard steel wheel. Oh, they have the equipment, but knowing how or bothering to do it properly, is in short supply. Try explaining how counterbalancing on same lip is bad and how balance dynamics change due to speed, to a typical tire jockey. Meh, buttons with pictures, keep hammering more and more weights until the machine says stop. Come to think of it, could we even trust an euc company to properly balance a motor, even if they claimed it?  

You may be surprised how many Shermans have been sold. I truly have no idea, but someone mentioned the firmware or SN# indicated which production # it was.

Edited January 6, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

When the tire bead bulges out from the rim, the issue is most likely that the exact opposite side of the rim allows the bead to go too deep. The outer diameter of the rim doesn’t affect that, it’s about the diameter of the section on the rim that is supposed to support the bead. That section is too small on pretty much all EUCs: The rim doesn’t center the tires properly, which is why a manual reseat is in order.

Oh I totally agree, the inner diameter is just as important as the outer. The inner diameter of the tyre should be very close to the outer diameter of the wheels inside lip.

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Which is a common process with EUCs, and never done on other vehicles.

Which is my point. With EUC's hitting 50+ mph now, wheels and tyres should be built to the same quality and tolerances as motorcycles. If an EUC tyre is free to move up and down the internal wheel lip by 5 to 10mm then it aint no good and its no wonder we are seeing seating problems. Even if the trye doesnt break free, the potential amount of runout is unacceptable. Especially when many riders simply dont have the knowledge to know about it or rectify it.

I dont expect perfect seating on a slow, learner wheel like a V5 using a bicycle tyre, I do on a serious 50mph+ Sherman.

[Daley1]

Hi @Fiori,u unlucky bastard!.I feel ur pain after u purchasing a highend wheel. U have tried everything and now its time to send the FXXXin thing back and ask for a new wheel.U dont want a replacement,u dont want it fixed,u want a new wheel. Its not ur job to theorize,stratagize or problem-solve this SXXT!Hopefully u bought it from a E-wheels and is still under warranty.Send it back!!!!

[Finn Bjerke]

On 1/5/2021 at 10:11 PM, Mango said:

There was a slight wobble when I first rode it but it didn't bother me too much. I think after about 500 kms, the wobble went away. I have one of the earliest batches of Shermans, but maybe later batches Veteran have slightly different rims?

I have over 5,500km on my Sherman, and have not even taken off the tire valve cap. Thusly, I don't even know what the factory tire pressure but I have squeezed the sides and from experience, it is likely at 30psi which works for me. The knobby and rim combination works very well out of the box and I have had no issues with unseated tires. The tread is holding up really well. I think I could go another 5,000 kms before needing a tire change.

I really don't think this rim/tire combo unseating issue is endemic to the Shermans. I guess from my experience, it has been absolutely reliable.

When users start mucking with different tires (eg Kuji Rolls street tire) and trying to solve their slight wobble issues is when things start to go wrong.

You have no problems and that makes you believe everything is just dandy.  Sorry mac: You can not generalise from your wheel alone. It seems Sherman have a problem also its an extremely fast wheel so this is potentially dangerous.  What the bloody hell are we paying for? 
 

Quote

If I had the Sherman, as a first aid I’d use multiple layers of thick tape at the inner rim edges to make it a larger diameter, like this (I’d buy a narrower tape though):

Bicycles have a rubberthingy (bike rim tape)  that fits between tire and tube, maybe 3mm EVA foam is an idea make it a perfect fit ? 

Dont buy Sherman until we know this is fixed.  Wheel 1  test is not  overly difficult  could be done over videolink - but in the long run is the rim-tyre fit OK? Can the whell take a beating ? 

[Fiori]

I already have 200 miles I definitely wouldn't feel right sending it back. I scratched it up pretty good learning.  I did purchase from ewheels, and I've been communicating with them about this. They are going to send out a new rim as soon as they have it, but replacement of said rim is on me to do.  I have it pretty good and 'manually centered' at the moment, so I am just going to keep riding and watching it. I have a V11 on the way and when that gets here I am going to compare the tire runout and see if I'm just being too picky.

The tape seems like a pretty good band-aid. But I've thought about it and I just don't want my bead sitting on tape(which may or may not come with its own set of problems). 

At the end of the day I trust myself more than anyone else to assemble my wheel correctly so I'd rather just do that. It wasn't what I planned, but at least now I will have a chance to make sure everything is 100% assembled correctly. 

Edited January 7, 2021 by Fiori

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

'balancing' a wheel would be fairly difficult.

It’s not, actually!

Quote

I cant even fathom how to balance a rim with motor in it.

 

Edited January 7, 2021 by mrelwood

[fbhb]

1 hour ago, Fiori said:

At the end of the day I trust myself more than anyone else to assemble my wheel correctly so I'd rather just do that. It wasn't what I planned, but at least now I will have a chance to make sure everything is 100% assembled correctly.

Never has a more true and correct statement been uttered on these Forums.  I totally agree with this wholeheartedly having already had to do so myself with my own King Song S18! 

That being said, it just Should Not be this way, we pony up our hard earned for these wheels and expect them to arrive and perform "as advertised"!!!  Maybe, one day in the distant future unfortunately, that may become a reality!!??

Edited January 7, 2021 by fbhb

[Fiori]

22 minutes ago, fbhb said:

Never has a more true and correct statement been uttered on these Forums.  I totally agree with this wholeheartedly having already had to do so myself with my own King Song S18! 

That being said, it just Should Not be this way, we pony up our hard earned for these wheels and expect them to arrive and perform "as advertised"!!!  Maybe, one day in the distant future unfortunately, that may become a reality!!??

Yep I couldn't agree more. Sadly we are part of the problem, we keep paying for the shit . I saw all this same shit go down with esk8 over the years.

The good news is all of this will get us better quality and reliability in the coming years. Performance will peak and reliability becomes the key factor in cornering the market.  Meanwhile DIY will be ahead of the curve. People that can repair, refine and tweak the current offerings will get those benefits NOW instead of in a few years(at the expense of some personal labor of course).

Edited January 7, 2021 by Fiori

[.....]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

 

It’s not, actually!

 

Somewhat a crude method of static balancing. Much better than nothing, well done for sure! Vibrations typically happen at certain speed intervals/frequency. On 15" cars, it was around 25-28mph/50-60mph. I dont know the math, but I bet its more like 20mph and 40mph on a 16" euc. Tbh, all my wheels havent needed me really check, but I may pay more attention and give this technique a try! Hell, its just stickon weights, Ive a stick or two ( evil pure lead) here somewhere. Thanks for the vid link!

Edited January 7, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[Planemo]

3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

It’s not, actually!

You beat me to it lol. I actually used that method some time back on my MSX. As @ShanesPlanet says, it is a bit of a cludge and I found it to not be very accurate, but I did sorta identify that the area around the valve was heavier (unsurprisingly). I ended up adding 10g (I think) to the opposite side of the wheel and it did seem to free spin with less imbalance, so what was it like when riding......?

 

 

......I couldnt tell any difference haha

Maybe using better scales or a stiffer piece of wood would help. I dunno.

[Sebaszz]

Ok maybe I need get used to the wheel. Only have done 40km so far on this wheel. Also because the police took my old wheel and I haven't ridden for 6 weeks. 

But I cannot go above 37km/u or the wheel start to wobbling from left to right eventually trying to throw me off.

I tried to align the tire by:

- decrease pressure to 8psi and ride for a couple of meters

- center the tire according to this video

- soap the beat of the tire before inflating

 

All steps above didn't result in any improvement. The wobble starts always almost exactly at the same speeds. Pushing it harder to ride to thru wobble is basically impossible. The rim seems to be aligned and doesn't show any wobble. The tire itself doesn't look entirely centered and straight but also not to worse to my opinion. Tire pressure is 28-30 psi.

 

any thoughts or suggestions? 

 

Edited January 15, 2021 by Sebaszz

[Fiori]

@Sebaszz You should be able to see if it's a tire issue by lifting the wheel and free spinning it. It's going to be kind of hard to tell while riding unless you can video it and look later. It very well could just be you not being used to riding