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"Why hoverboards keep exploding" Wired article


BecauseFun

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http://www.wired.com/2015/12/why-hoverboards-keep-exploding/?mbid=nl_121315

The proliferation of inexpensively made batteries rushed to market is bad news on any number of levels. Granted hoverboards are way more popular at the moment, but whether defective batteries end up in hoverboards or electric unicycles, I think it's a horrible thing for any electric vehicle to be viewed by the general public as a potential rolling explosion just waiting go off in a Hollywood fireball. I think it's important now more than ever to make a space for eucs on the road. Since the world seems to be moving forward with a general level of unease following recent Isis attacks, I think it's tempting for at least some politicians to want to enact any legislation that would be viewed as "keeping people safe." I think banning eucs from public roads for any reason is it bad idea, and unfortunately I could see such legislation becoming more likely as more poorly manufactured battery problems continue to make the news. 

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Today, while riding my electric unicycle and stopped at a traffic light, someone asked me what was the difference between what I was riding and the "hoverboards" and after I answered "unicycle is significantly faster and can go off road" she immediately followed by asking me if my unicycle was explosive (like hoverboards are she said). Obviously the hoverboards are getting infamous due to all their incidents reported on the news, and such infamy might spread towards unicycles as well. Regardless of that, pretty much all pedestrians worship me.

Thou I've also run into some politicians who have showed interest in the unit and asked questions (I ride in Washington DC every week). I don't think USA will ban them.

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Couldn't all of this be solved by putting the battery inside of a housing? It just needs to be heat resistant above whatever temp li-ions burn at. You would need a small opening to allow gas to escape but not flames. You might need some heat pipes to cool it but they aren't expensive.

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The problem with fake or dangerous 18650 battery cells is a lot like the capacitor plague from about 15 years ago. The difference, however, is that those capacitors were in products from reputable companies including Dell and most were covered by warranty. I bought an Asus motherboard from NewEgg and that was covered, for example. All these bad batteries are in cheap Chinese unbranded products so it seems unlikely anyone will be held responsible for broken products, riding injuries, or fires.

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15 minutes ago, dmethvin said:

The problem with fake or dangerous 18650 battery cells is a lot like the capacitor plague from about 15 years ago. The difference, however, is that those capacitors were in products from reputable companies including Dell and most were covered by warranty. I bought an Asus motherboard from NewEgg and that was covered, for example. All these bad batteries are in cheap Chinese unbranded products so it seems unlikely anyone will be held responsible for broken products, riding injuries, or fires.

Is using high quality 18650s enough though? Is just tig welding them together and shrink wrapping them safe even with high end cells? I haven't seen many devices besides hoverboards and EUCs that use them like that.

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Well the major risks are physical damage, short circuits, or incorrect charging by a bad charger. The packs are pretty solidly made in the EUCs I've seen, the cells aren't jostling around inside their compartments and they're inside the EUC so they're unlikely to be punctured for example. When it's working properly the BMS should guard against short circuits and a slightly sloppy charger, but if the charger failed and did something like push AC line voltage into the EUC it would probably burn up. 

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40 minutes ago, lizardmech said:

Couldn't all of this be solved by putting the battery inside of a housing? It just needs to be heat resistant above whatever temp li-ions burn at. You would need a small opening to allow gas to escape but not flames. You might need some heat pipes to cool it but they aren't expensive.

I'm no engineer, but I would think with that kind of design you would need to vent the housing to a place outside the Euc, preferably away from the rider's leg. Otherwise, the intense heat from the cascading lithium fire would probably melt and burn through anything near an internal vent. I would love to be proved wrong, but I'm guessing that the bottom line is that even if some sort of housing were to be put in place, the results of poorly manufactured battery fires would still make for big YouTube news. And of course the manufacturers who are using the worst of batteries would be the least likely to put them in any kind of safe housing, because safer batteries or housings aren't priorities for quick buck manufacturers. 

And think about it, if somehow magically overnight all electric vehicles were required to have protective housings and proper venting and that actually did turn out to be a helpful measure to protect against the worst of batteries, you would now have I think an even more persistent stigma of riding around on a device that is suspect…

" Hey what's that hole for on that wheel thing of yours?"

"Oh that, that's where burning lithium gases escape if there's a battery fire"

"So it's true then that these are quite the fire risk, huh? …  It's probably safer if they just ban these things, I don't want them near my kids or anywhere else"

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, edwin_rm said:

Today, while riding my electric unicycle and stopped at a traffic light, someone asked me what was the difference between what I was riding and the "hoverboards" and after I answered "unicycle is significantly faster and can go off road" she immediately followed by asking me if my unicycle was explosive (like hoverboards are she said). Obviously the hoverboards are getting infamous due to all their incidents reported on the news, and such infamy might spread towards unicycles as well. Regardless of that, pretty much all pedestrians worship me.

Thou I've also run into some politicians who have showed interest in the unit and asked questions (I ride in Washington DC every week). I don't think USA will ban them.

You are right, unless things get worse I don't think there's a good chance at any kind of national ban. But already it's hard or impossible to plan on flying with a euc, and it's the local bans that I think will become more common  unless something is done. For example in New York City come January, apparently it will be open season on electric vehicles, with officers being instructed to ticket you and confiscate your ride if they see you on it within city limits.

Eucs don't travel any faster than bicycles, and are arguably a better solution than bicycles - space for outdoor racks would never be taken for eucs the way it is for bicycles. 

I think it's time for politicians to start thinking, "ok we share the road with bicycles, yes we should share the road with eucs too."

And this isn't just the way local politicians should be thinking in the long term, most of the planet just got together in Paris and agreed to measures that might help our planet be more hospitable to future generations. Eucs need to be part of this solution, not mindlessly grouped together and banned with hoverboards, which are likely to be a fad item that is being too quickly produced with enough bad battery incidents, that they might very well put a permanent scar on the public's mind when it comes to electric personal transportation vehicles, which not only could result in a lot less places to legally ride, you also end up with a slower pace to change carbon emitting habits that will likely not bode well for good living on our planet not too far in our collective future.

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2 minutes ago, BecauseFun said:

Eucs don't travel any faster than bicycles, and are arguably a better solution than bicycles - space for outdoor racks would never be taken for eucs the way it is for bicycles. 

You are really grasping at straws with this statement. :)   You would not win any debate trying to saying it is a better solution than bicycles.  Bicycles are green, won't explode, don't require power to keep you upright (no faceplants), are cheaper (in most cases), are more reliable, and are faster.  

EU's are just more fun and are more practical for a small percentage of people.  Space in bike racks would be more available but these still have to be stored somewhere and you can't lock them up securely and easily.  

 

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Just got the following from Amazon...

-------- Original message --------From: "Amazon.com Customer Service" <order-update@amazon.com> Date: 12/12/2015  6:00 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Scott Dumont

Subject: Attention: Important Product Safety Notification Regarding Your Amazon.com Order #xxx

Hello

We're contacting you about order #xxx for One-wheel Self-balancing Scooter Ninebot One E+ Unicycle Free Shipping.

There have been recent news reports of safety issues involving products like the one you purchased that contain rechargeable lithium-ion batteries. As a precaution, we want to share some additional information about lithium-ion batteries and safety tips for using products that contain them. Please follow the link below for the information and safety tips:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201976530

If you’d rather not keep the product, please contact Customer Service to initiate a return:

https://www.amazon.com/contact-us/

If you purchased this item for someone else, please pass along this information to the recipient.

We hope to see you again soon.

Sincerely,

Customer Service
Amazon.com

Please note: this e-mail was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

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1 hour ago, BecauseFun said:

I'm no engineer, but I would think with that kind of design you would need to vent the housing to a place outside the Euc, preferably away from the rider's leg. Otherwise, the intense heat from the cascading lithium fire would probably melt and burn through anything near an internal vent. I would love to be proved wrong, but I'm guessing that the bottom line is that even if some sort of housing were to be put in place, the results of poorly manufactured battery fires would still make for big YouTube news. And of course the manufacturers who are using the worst of batteries would be the least likely to put them in any kind of safe housing, because safer batteries or housings aren't priorities for quick buck manufacturers. 

 

 

 

 

True, though tesla already do something similar on their cars. In their packs each cell has a fuse, cooling jacket and a material that extinguishes lithium fires in the event of a cell failure. They also mount them so the conductive parts aren't exposed to mechanical forces. I don't think you would need to vent fire on a properly designed pack, just smoke. I need to find out what mass production material are suited to withstanding lithium battery fires and what the compound tesla pack around their cells.

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1 hour ago, Cranium said:

You are really grasping at straws with this statement. :)   You would not win any debate trying to saying it is a better solution than bicycles.  Bicycles are green, won't explode, don't require power to keep you upright (no faceplants), are cheaper (in most cases), are more reliable, and are faster.  

EU's are just more fun and are more practical for a small percentage of people.  Space in bike racks would be more available but these still have to be stored somewhere and you can't lock them up securely and easily.  

 

Well I know I'm definitely too tired to get into a full debate. :)

But off the top of my head I can tell you that if you lived in Connecticut and wanted to commute to New York City, you wouldn't be able to do that with a traditional bicycle using the Metro North train because bicycles are not allowed on peak trains going into or out of the City. Which means you would have to leave your bike locked up at the station with risk of having it get ripped off or rained on, and of course it can only get you to the station and back to house. 

With a euc, you could ride to the railroad station at any time of day, and take your euc on the train with you. After you trolleying it out of Grand Central Station, you could probably ride most or all of the way to work using your euc. And when you got to work you could trolly it to a place right next to your desk and it wouldn't take any more space than a second briefcase. 

Believe me I have nothing against bicycles whatsoever, I love bicycles. But the fact just comes down to basic math. They are two wheels, eucs are one, and a pretty compact one at that. The extra space bicycles take up is enough to make the overwhelming majority of them essentially incompatible with public transportation. So at least for millions of people using rails to go in and out of New York City, and using buses and subways while they are there which are still euc friendly, bicycles represent a considerably less practical solution then eucs could. If eucs were not the direct targets of the New York City police for confiscation a couple of weeks from now. 

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8 hours ago, lizardmech said:

True, though tesla already do something similar on their cars. In their packs each cell has a fuse, cooling jacket and a material that extinguishes lithium fires in the event of a cell failure. They also mount them so the conductive parts aren't exposed to mechanical forces. I don't think you would need to vent fire on a properly designed pack, just smoke. I need to find out what mass production material are suited to withstanding lithium battery fires and what the compound tesla pack around their cells.

I love Tesla and I'd love to own a Tesla one day. My test drives in a Model S are about the most fun I've ever spent in a car, and I've logged plenty of miles behind a wheel. 

Yet accusatory political fingers now being pointed at cheap hoverboard batteries were once directed at Tesla battery fires, and it would only take another crash and fire or two for Tesla to get right back on the hot seat. (pun not intended) 

Nobody likes unexpected explosions. Terrorists use them to do their thing, and nobody likes terrorists. 

Lithium ion batteries have been used in millions of consumer products for decades and are a proven, safe technology. They don't explode. Essentially the only time you've ever seen fires/explosions in the news related to lithium batteries is when they been improperly manufactured, like what is happening with a small number of batteries in hoverboards now. 

Back to the point, I think that even if lithium batteries were all raised to the highest standard of production and design, there would likely remain manufacturers who would cut corners for profit regardless. There are clearly people out there right now who probably could be making the choice to either make safer batteries to ship here to the US, or save money by making batteries that are less safe, especially for a high demand item like a hoverboard.

No matter how safe lithium technology can be designed, it hardly means it will always be made as safe as possible. It can be hoped that corner cutting battery manufacturers in China are a dying breed soon to be extinct, if only for simple fact that you shouldn't be able to continue your business for too long if your products tend to blow up from time to time as they are being used by your customers. If they are made as safe as they can be in the first place, then maybe products that use lithium ion batteries, especially the ones that roll around on one wheel that most of us here care about, can continue to find a growing niche without being potentially demonized and unnecessarily banned. 

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2 hours ago, BecauseFun said:

You are right, unless things get worse I don't think there's a good chance at any kind of national ban. But already it's hard or impossible to plan on flying with a euc, and it's the local bans that I think will become more common  unless something is done. For example in New York City come January, apparently it will be open season on electric vehicles, with officers being instructed to ticket you and confiscate your ride if they see you on it within city limits.

@BecauseFun I keep hearing about thing in January where riding an EU will become a lot more strict in the NYC. Is there an article or something we can link to this? I'm curious about the details. 

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2 hours ago, lizardmech said:

 

 

36 minutes ago, logos122 said:

@BecauseFun I keep hearing about thing in January where riding an EU will become a lot more strict in the NYC. Is there an article or something we can link to this? I'm curious about the details. 

It's late and I gotta crash, like 2 hours ago :rolleyes:, but I remember hearing about the January crackdown in a thread or two here. I don't remember if it was official, and if I had to guess I'd say that it was something that an officer told one or more of our users.  Bottom line is I think riding in New York City in 2016 will be like riding with a new, untested ninebot firmware release. Go ahead and try it if you really want to, but keep in mind that it may not end up being a very good idea for you or your wheel. ;)

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I'd just like to point out that although it is very important to protect the cells from damage the idea of a fire proof housing is not at all sensible. If you try to contain a self propagating fire inside any kind of container you end up producing a bomb.

A few years ago an uneducated idiot in the firearms department tried to make black powder firearms licence holders keep their supplies of black powder in steel boxes until the stupidity of this proposal was pointed out to them. 

We are now required to keep our black powder supplies in segmented wooden boxes as that way each section ignites seperately and just burns vigorously rather than exploding.

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8 hours ago, Scott Dumont said:

Just got the following from Amazon...

-------- Original message --------From: "Amazon.com Customer Service" <order-update@amazon.com> Date: 12/12/2015  6:00 AM  (GMT-05:00) To: Scott Dumont

Subject: Attention: Important Product Safety Notification Regarding Your Amazon.com Order #xxx

Hello

We're contacting you about order #xxx for One-wheel Self-balancing Scooter Ninebot One E+ Unicycle Free Shipping.

There have been recent news reports of safety issues involving products like the one you purchased that contain rechargeable lithium-ion batteries. As a precaution, we want to share some additional information about lithium-ion batteries and safety tips for using products that contain them. Please follow the link below for the information and safety tips:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/help/customer/display.html?nodeId=201976530

If you’d rather not keep the product, please contact Customer Service to initiate a return:

https://www.amazon.com/contact-us/

If you purchased this item for someone else, please pass along this information to the recipient.

We hope to see you again soon.

Sincerely,

Customer Service
Amazon.com

Please note: this e-mail was sent from a notification-only address that cannot accept incoming e-mail. Please do not reply to this message.

Wow, that is creepy. Imagine being a ninebot dealer, trying to get your start, and all of a sudden you are getting dozens of your products returned. A product, which like millions of consumer product run on proven lithium-ion technology, but because it is technology that is lumped together hover boards that are making the news because they contain slipshod batteries, you might end up going out of business.

Honestly, if I gotten that letter, I would have written Amazon back saying something along the lines that eucs like the one you were trying to warn me about have never had a safety issue. 

And if I were the euc dealer, I would probably sue Amazon for unnecessarily scaring customers away from my products. 

Eucs are not hoverboards.

Hoverboards have a risk, however small, of having improperly manufactured batteries that could pose a risk of explosion or fire. 

Eucs are not hoverboards, but as long as people continue to think any self balancing thing you get on might potentially be a hazard, you wind up with bans and restrictions and warnings wrongly applied to eucs as well. 

 

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4 hours ago, BecauseFun said:

Wow, that is creepy. Imagine being a ninebot dealer, trying to get your start, and all of a sudden you are getting dozens of your products returned. A product, which like millions of consumer product run on proven lithium-ion technology, but because it is technology that is lumped together hover boards that are making the news because they contain slipshod batteries, you might end up going out of business.

Honestly, if I gotten that letter, I would have written Amazon back saying something along the lines that eucs like the one you were trying to warn me about have never had a safety issue. 

And if I were the euc dealer, I would probably sue Amazon for unnecessarily scaring customers away from my products. 

Eucs are not hoverboards.

Hoverboards have a risk, however small, of having improperly manufactured batteries that could pose a risk of explosion or fire. 

Eucs are not hoverboards, but as long as people continue to think any self balancing thing you get on might potentially be a hazard, you wind up with bans and restrictions and warnings wrongly applied to eucs as well. 

 

I think Ninebot certainly have room for legal action here. There have been no reports of battery safety issues with the Ninebot. I could understand Amazon sending a warning out about generic/unbranded EUCs/boards because there really is no way to isolate the dangerous ones. 

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19 hours ago, Tom said:

I think Ninebot certainly have room for legal action here. There have been no reports of battery safety issues with the Ninebot. I could understand Amazon sending a warning out about generic/unbranded EUCs/boards because there really is no way to isolate the dangerous ones. 

Yes, let us not confuse the risk of death from Ninebot's irresponsible firmware upgrades with the risk of death from low-quality batteries.  :unsure:

All the affected manufacturers should get together and come up with some sort of certification that their products meet safety standards, Online stores like Amazon and eBay shouldn't sell them unless they have been certified, and airlines shouldn't let you bring one on board or ship them unless they're certified. If there is fraud in certification, the supply chain should hold the manufacturers responsible. Governments can say that only certified products can be sold in their jurisdiction.  

Many solutions can work, but I don't think the current situation will be workable for long. And it's not just about batteries, but the reliability of all the components against water, heat, vibration, etc. Plus the complications of downloadable firmware! Companies like Underwriters' Labs and the Canadian Standards Association do these tests for all sorts of products already, and certification tends to be expensive so it's not worthwhile for throwaway products from fly-by-night manufacturers.

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18 hours ago, logos122 said:

@BecauseFun I keep hearing about thing in January where riding an EU will become a lot more strict in the NYC. Is there an article or something we can link to this? I'm curious about the details. 

As far as I've seen, this is based on a brief conversation on the street with a cop.  I'm not sure it's worth getting too excited about just yet.  

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@Scott Dumont , I got that notice as well. Ironically, the EU I got via Amazon worries me less than the less expensive EU I started with! It has made me consider where I store the EU. I would hate to move it out to the garage, because the moisture is worse, and a cold battery is an uncooperative battery. I do have a smoke detector over where it sleeps for the night!

@BA-B8 , my son uses those lipo-sacs to house his RC car Lipo batteries while he charges them. They are too small to conveniently fit the larger battery packs from the EU. Even with a big enough sac, if a battery were to catch fire, it would have to be dealt with: the sac isn't a fool proof solution.

I don't know about you all, but I keep my battery packs nestled in the EU, I don't remove them. I have been very curious reviewing photos of the removable panels that allow easy access to ninebot batteries, and similar situations in some other brands. If it was easy to get the batteries out, I think I might store them in fireproof containers such as ammo containers made of metal.

One thing I am certain not to do is leave a charging EU unattended.

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17 hours ago, Gimlet said:

I'd just like to point out that although it is very important to protect the cells from damage the idea of a fire proof housing is not at all sensible. If you try to contain a self propagating fire inside any kind of container you end up producing a bomb.

A few years ago an uneducated idiot in the firearms department tried to make black powder firearms licence holders keep their supplies of black powder in steel boxes until the stupidity of this proposal was pointed out to them. 

We are now required to keep our black powder supplies in segmented wooden boxes as that way each section ignites seperately and just burns vigorously rather than exploding.

Aerospace industry recommends housing them in stainless steel or aluminium casing. it just needs a venting mechanism.

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