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MSP & garage fire!


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Well, I had one of the worst imaginable events happen with my wheel other than injury, which I've already conquered many times in the past.    5 days ago...my MSP C30 wouldn't charge after a 10 m

I'm going to go out on a limb and say "stressing" the bad battery pack led to the ultimate failure. Even an idling wheel on a bad battery pack is probably not good. Nothing like hindsight though.

Stressing a pack with a bad cell by charging or discharging should not be done in any case! Never ever!  From the reports here there seem to be three stages of battery degradation - the firs

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This is the worst nightmare for all of us. I struggle to think where I could possibly store my wheels to be safe. Nothing. I'm stuck playing the odds.

At least we know that your battery pack was known to be bad, so there's that.

Perhaps if you had disconnected it from the other battery pack this may not have happened? Don't know of course.

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Yes, worst fears imagined.   I did have the other battery pack disconnected.   When determining whether it was the charger or battery pack, I disconnected each to test to see if it would charge.   I started on the side with the good pack but when I opened the other side and noticed the bad cell, it was obvious.   I disconnected that pack and the other side charged as normal and I brought it to full.   I then disconnected the full pack and reconnected the bad pack to reduce the overall voltage before returning via the mail.   It was reconnected to the "bad" pack only for a couple days and I was working on reducing the overall voltage to the very minimum.   The damaged pack was down to around 4% when sitting in the garage prior to the fire.   However, the full pack was still in the wheel but not connected.   And yes, I covered the disconnected wires with electrical tape so nothing was exposed and the wires secured.

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13 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

Yes, worst fears imagined.   I did have the other battery pack disconnected.   When determining whether it was the charger or battery pack, I disconnected each to test to see if it would charge.   I started on the side with the good pack but when I opened the other side and noticed the bad cell, it was obvious.   I disconnected that pack and the other side charged as normal and I brought it to full.   I then disconnected the full pack and reconnected the bad pack to reduce the overall voltage before returning via the mail.   It was reconnected to the "bad" pack only for a couple days and I was working on reducing the overall voltage to the very minimum.   The damaged pack was down to around 4% when sitting in the garage prior to the fire.   However, the full pack was still in the wheel but not connected.   And yes, I covered the disconnected wires with electrical tape so nothing was exposed and the wires secured.

That's good clarifying information. So the battery pack was connected to reduce the charge. But Gotway wheels don't draw power when they are off? Was the wheel on continuously?

I'm thinking that if the battery pack was truly dormant (no current being drawn from it) nothing would have happened?

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13 minutes ago, Dzlchef said:

I'm now wondering if it was the type of cell, i.e. 21700 LG M50T, or the poor construction or both that contributed to the battery pack's demise?   Do I replace with another Gotway with the LG cells or opt for another wheel like the Veteran which uses the older and better tested 18650 cells?

Although heavier, the Sherman still rides somewhat like a MSP - meaning it's still agile enough. Except for situations where I need the extra pedal clearance, I'm grabbing the Sherman.

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1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

That's good clarifying information. So the battery pack was connected to reduce the charge. But Gotway wheels don't draw power when they are off? Was the wheel on continuously?

I'm thinking that if the battery pack was truly dormant (no current being drawn from it) nothing would have happened?

I would have thought exactly the same.   The wheel was off, no current being drawn.   I did have the wheel on and was using power to reduce the voltage on the "bad" pack but had the wheel completely off for about 90 minutes before the fire started.  

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Personally, I wouldn’t have entertained shipping the bad pack—discharged or not. When a cell fails such that you can visually see evidence, the safety circuit built into that cell has also certainly been killed and the cell can continue to degrade in an uncontrolled fashion. Plus its companions in the pack may have been compromised by the failure event. You wouldn’t be out of line to treat it as if the whole thing has become an immediate fire hazard. Maybe dig a hole, toss in the pack and purposely incinerate it. After you take pictures for warranty purposes of course.

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Is there an EUC on the market that allow riders to monitor their battery health?  The Onewheel BMS allows riders to view the voltages of each of the cells.    (Actually its a bit more complicated than that because Future Motion tries to screw their customers over and prevent them from seeing this information, but that's another story all together)

 

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35 minutes ago, Zombie Batman said:

Is there an EUC on the market that allow riders to monitor their battery health?  The Onewheel BMS allows riders to view the voltages of each of the cells.

I think Z10 is the only one so far that allows the user to see the individual cell group voltages. Ironically the Z10 has been plagued with battery/BMS issues pointing to faults in the voltage monitoring mechanism.

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3 hours ago, Zombie Batman said:

Is there an EUC on the market that allow riders to monitor their battery health?  The Onewheel BMS allows riders to view the voltages of each of the cells.    (Actually its a bit more complicated than that because Future Motion tries to screw their customers over and prevent them from seeing this information, but that's another story all together)

 

This was is true for the older onewheels. Future Motion has since then disabled this feature. Only way to check now is the manual way.

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25 minutes ago, Simply_Striking said:

This was is true for the older onewheels. Future Motion has since then disabled this feature. Only way to check now is the manual way.

How odd. Derail for sure, but I'm just curious if they quit having that feature enabled, or quit using a bms that monitors it? Was the bms needed to check so many locations, causing more failures, or was it simply cheaper to not incorporate. Maybe it still monitors it, but they simply don't want the user to access it? Lots of questions, but I just find it odd when a seemingly 'safety' feature gets changed/removed/omitted.

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7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I've since forgotten much for details, but back then there was a real concern of packs catching fire from being severly discharged. Not WHILE being discharged, just if they were left to sit at a very low state for long

I’ve never heard of this. Common advice in the FPV quadcopter world is to discharge battery packs to 0V then dispose on regular trash. At 0V, there is no risk of fire.

The issue I have with our wheels is that what’s happening within the batteries is being masked by the BMS. I have no way of knowing what individual cell packs are doing, what their voltages are, what their internal resistances are. I have no way of individually charging or discharging individual cells. This is fine for regular use, I suppose, but doesn’t help troubleshoot scenarios such as this one.

Discharging the battery pack using the wheel (as per OP) was never going to reduce voltage to the safest level for transport (0V), but short of disassembling the battery and putting each cell through a tungsten bulb equivalent, there’s no other way of doing it. 

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Although I’ve read about these runaways in the past and all the associated damage they (could) have caused, and it’s sad for sure.. this has scared the hell out of me, because for months I’ve stored a non working wheel with my other 4 working ones. Minutes ago I separated it and put it outside in the middle of the yard. I’ll either autopsy it and dispose of the battery packs, or the whole thing gets recycled.

I can’t say enough how much I appreciate this community (since 2015/6). 

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Really scary, thanks for sharing. Hope you get past the anguish.
It might be worth having thread about what to do in case hell is loose, other than (on top of) call the fire department.

For example:
whether to stay around trying to control the fire, or if the fumes are too toxic.
Other than using an extinguisher, could spraying it with water help cooling it.
If there is any point in trying to isolate it with a fire blanket.
How long to expect it to last..etc..

Of course prevention is best, but in case shit hits the fan it's better to know what to expect and how to act. Especially for people who live in flats and dont have separated areas like garages this is scary.

edit: not to derail anything here, maybe I should move this to separate thread..

 

Edited by null
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14 hours ago, Zombie Batman said:

That is my worst nightmare.  I been thinking of getting some sort of large metal box to store my wheel in.  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Buyers-Products-Aluminum-Underbody-24x24x24/dp/B01ASXUSD2/

 

If I had one or two wheels I would store them in such a cabinet. What to do when you have a dozen :cry2:

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11 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

If I had one or two wheels I would store them in such a cabinet. What to do when you have a dozen :cry2:

Bulk up on insurance, and play the odds. You know, same thing we do when we ride. Think happy thoughts!

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On 11/23/2020 at 6:53 PM, Marty Backe said:

I struggle to think where I could possibly store my wheels to be safe.

For those who own property with sufficient land and in a very temperate climate, I think a cheap tiny pre-built shed (really a 'detached closet' ;-) ) with decent insulation away from everything could be an option. (Detached garages are better than the house, but many people still keep a lot of valuable stuff in garages, from general storage to actual automobiles.) This wouldn't work for those in more variable climates however as temperature swings are also extremely bad for such batteries, unless you were going to try to climate control the shed (I don't know if they make tiny thermostat-controlled h/v/a/c units for something like a shed, or maybe one could repurpose something from an RV or similar).

On the easy side, it would be super easy to mount a smoke detector immediately above where we store wheels (like a foot above them on the wall)--I imagine this would go off quicker than one even in the same room but mounted on the ceiling on the far side of the room or something. Edit: also I assume they probably make 'smart' smoke detectors these days that could give you phone notifications in addition to loud beeping.

Edited by AtlasP
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