Can discharged EUCs catch fire?

[Eucnewbie]

I got a couple of new EUCs (Kingsong KS16XS and Mten3) in July 2020 and used them for maybe 200km each so far. No hard falls, no external damage. On the 1 of October 2020 I moved to a new house and had no time to use them, so they were idle, leaning against the wall next to each other. 3 days into my vacation the room with the EUCs caught fire, now the owners are trying to blame me since they say it started from the EUCs. 
 

TLDR, is there any way that a discharged EUC that is not connected to power can spontaneously combust a month after just sitting there? 
 
I’ve tried googling and can’t find any cases of this happening, there are around 20-30k of damages to the house and I really don’t want to be blamed for it. Does anybody know if it’s plausible?

 

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Eucnewbie said:

TLDR, is there any way that a discharged EUC that is not connected to power can spontaneously combust a month after just sitting there? 

Theoreticly yes, but unlikely.

Did not the fire fighters determine the source of the fire? Happens here in Austria every time, as arson is a criminal offence that has to be prosecuted by the public prosecution service.

The fire could have been cable fire, any electric device, etc...

1 hour ago, Eucnewbie said:

really don’t want to be blamed for it. Does anybody know if it’s plausible?

As i know common western juristictions rhe houseowner needs some proof to blame you legally.

Just some believe or indication is normally not enough...

But best to discuss this with a lawyer!

[.....]

34 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Theoreticly yes, but unlikely.

Did not the fire fighters determine the source of the fire? Happens here in Austria every time, as arson is a criminal offence that has to be prosecuted by the public prosecution service.

The fire could have been cable fire, any electric device, etc...

As i know common western juristictions rhe houseowner needs some proof to blame you legally.

Just some believe or indication is normally not enough...

But best to discuss this with a lawyer!

Yes, lawyer up and don't sign or say anything. Even if the homeowner doesnt try to blame you, his insurance company will. Hell, you can just as easily sue him for endangering your life with a faulty room. If accusations are just being tossed, lob some of your own? I think the firefighters will make a statement and thatll be that. I doubt theyll conclude it was the euc that started it. If it wasnt a cigarette, it was more likely an appliance or wiring.  Good luck, let us know how it shakes out. Sorry to hear about the vacation shortage and the loss of property. Hell, doesnt the home owner owe you around $3k worth of pev's? 'Plausible' does not a winning court case make! Even more in your favor, its the homeowners responsiblility to maintain the home and property. Liability falls in his/her lap more than yours. There was a time when Li-ion was known to 'possibly' pose a fire hazard if the cells dropped too low. I don't know how likely it was, but i do know I have some swollen li-pos from being overly discharged. Still, theres a LOT of pev's on the planet and we dont hear much about fire from sitting undamaged and unplugged. Hell, wouldnt the blame fall on the pev/battery maker, IF they were found at fault? I still think it is highly unlikely.

Edited November 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[redsnapper]

there is a process in insurance loss called subrogation where the insurer covers the loss then pursues a 3rd party who was ultimately responsible (dryer defect causes a house fire). insurance companies usually subrogate to companies that have financial means to settle etc. if your pev catches fire and burns down someone`s house, you are not personally responsible anymore than you are if your car spontaneously catches fire and burns down your neighbors house. spontaneous ignition of a PEV lies with the manufacturer of the batt or the machine etc. there are laws that protect consumers against liability for such defects and I would be very surprised if you could be held responsible for any loss related to a PEV ignition. This differs from a loss caused by negligent use (hitting a pedestrian while hotdogging down stairs)...

NB - even companies that explicitly indicate ''this product can spontaneously ignite blah blah'' do not escape liability. There is a legal obligation to not sell products that have significant defects and no amount of verbiage can absolve the maker of their responsibility. Who the insurer would go after in this case is unclear given that  pursuit of offshore entities becomes complex etc. no matter - the principle remains the same. you are not responsible for the spontaneous ignition of said PEV or any losses related to that ignition.

[redsnapper]

2 minutes ago, amelanso said:

there is a process in insurance loss called subrogation where the insurer covers the loss then pursues a 3rd party who was ultimately responsible (dryer defect causes a house fire). insurance companies usually subrogate to companies that have financial means to settle etc. if your pev catches fire and burns down someone`s house, you are not personally responsible anymore than you are if your car spontaneously catches fire and burns down your neighbors house. spontaneous ignition of a PEV lies with the manufacturer of the batt or the machine etc. there are laws that protect consumers against liability for such defects and I would be very surprised if you could be held responsible for any loss related to a PEV ignition. This differs from a loss caused by negligent use (hitting a pedestrian while hotdogging down stairs)...

NB - even companies that explicitly indicate ''this product can spontaneously ignite blah blah'' do not escape liability. There is a legal obligation to not sell products that have significant defects and no amount of verbiage can absolve the maker of their responsibility. Who the insurer would go after in this case is unclear given that  pursuit of offshore entities becomes complex etc. no matter - the principle remains the same. you are not responsible for the spontaneous ignition of said PEV or any losses related to that ignition unless of course you hacked the battery or materially altered the product thereby causing the ignition...

 

[Chriull]

44 minutes ago, amelanso said:

. you are not responsible for the spontaneous ignition of said PEV or any losses related to that ignition unless of course you hacked the battery or materially altered the product thereby causing the ignition

Unless one had imported the wheel oneself, like by buying via aliexpress, etc?

If one bought from a reseller from within the EUC or some similar "legally included areas" this reseller (importer) would be liable for such incidents.

So, once again @Eucnewbie should consult a lawyer, as written before. The amount in dispute shpuld easily justify this step, especially if some kind of legal expense insurance is existing.

[redsnapper]

12 minutes ago, Chriull said:

Unless one had imported the wheel oneself, like by buying via aliexpress, etc?

If one bought from a reseller from within the EUC or some similar "legally included areas" this reseller (importer) would be liable for such incidents.

So, once again @Eucnewbie should consult a lawyer, as written before. The amount in dispute shpuld easily justify this step, especially if some kind of legal expense insurance is existing.

If a suit is eventually filed then you will have plenty of time to get legal advice and you will have some clarity on what your alleged responsibility is (and this informs what strategies a lawyer would employ to defend you). If no suit has been filed against you, I really can`t see the point of wasting time & $$$ on a lawyer.

[Chriull]

52 minutes ago, amelanso said:

I really can`t see the point of wasting time & $$$ on a lawyer.

Of course. As it seems and very imho @Eucnewbie from what he wrote has nothing to fear and no obligations. And if he follows

 

10 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

don't sign or say anything

the houseowner should have no legal possibility against him.

But as we know absolutepy nothing in detail about italian law, the rental contract, the fire fighters report there is no real advice to be given but consult a lawyer, as the amount of dispute is quite high, @Eucnewbie seems to have quite no idea of his legal situation and possibilities.

 

 

Ps.: Of course one should do some kind of risk assesment - if one has any chance to evaluate it. And if one is capable of taking the whole burden if one was wrong...

[.....]

1 hour ago, amelanso said:

If a suit is eventually filed then you will have plenty of time to get legal advice and you will have some clarity on what your alleged responsibility is (and this informs what strategies a lawyer would employ to defend you). If no suit has been filed against you, I really can`t see the point of wasting time & $$$ on a lawyer.

Typically a lawyer will see you for nearly free or very minimal. Just because you seek legal counsel doesnt mean you are on the hook for a huge bill. One would assume that if all their euc's burned up, they may have a few moments of spare time nowadays? A lawyer probably won't be required, but when you are dealing with someone who is already throwing accussations, it may not hurt. Just a meet/greet and advice from a lawyer in a preemptive fashion, also makes it more likely you will be able to retain them IF it comes to that. Having plenty of time to find a lawyer, only seems like plenty, when they arent already all busy.

Edited November 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Eucnewbie]

The firefighter’s report came out, and it says it was likely a short circuit from the wiring, no mention of the EUCs. I went to take some pictures and found both chargers in another room so they were definitely not forgotten overcharging (don’t know if it would even happen). Anyways the EUC fire theory is now gone out the window, technically I’m owed a lot of money for damages but he doesn’t have insurance and is already in debt 😭 I found a new house and now I’m looking into buying a new EUC, thanks for the advice!

[.....]

Wow, is it legal to rent a house without insurance in Italy? If you talked to a lawyer already, perhaps its time you go see them again? Sorry about the losses. No surprise as 'wiring' is as common to cite as 'you match the description of".

Edited November 29, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Michael Tucker]

@Eucnewbie, amazing story and turn of fate. Thanks for posting! Good luck with your next wheel.

[Eucnewbie]

Further updates:

I hired an electrical engineer that came to inspect the apartment, for now we didn’t find an obvious cause for the fire, so if I can’t prove it was the owner’s fault (faulty wiring) and he can’t prove that it was my fault the law here says we have to go half and half, so he pays half my damages (around 10k) and I pay half his (which range from 30-60k). He asked me explicitly for money or he’s going to sue me, so if anyone wants a free lesson here, if you live in a country without mandatory insurance get some anyways, or suffer like me.

[alcatraz]

I wouldn't be so fast to pay. The official report didn't mention your euc's and as such favors your case in a dispute.

The 50/50 rule I think applies to settle small damages where the cost of the damage is well under the legal costs. In this case it's not so low.

[redsnapper]

until u r compelled by the court why wld u pay? u appear to be blameless!

[.....]

cease any and all contact with this person and allow your lawyer to do what he is paid to do. If i claim you owe me $50,000, it doesnt make it true. If i treaten to sue you for it, doesnt mean itll be granted in my favor. Don't be bullied, as no fault of yours has been proven. YOUR insurance wouldnt cover HIS house anyhow. Renters insurance typically covers YOUR poperties, not his. I can't see why you would owe half, as you don't own the property and arent in charge of making sure the house is safe. If anything, why not levy a lawsuit against him. Perhpas you could cite ALL of your losses and his inability to have proper fire supression and a rental that won't magically go up in smoke. Then of course theres mental anguish and the fact that your life was in jeopardy due to his negligence. Why not claim negigence on his part, he's claiming negligence on yours with no proof. Are you VERY young? Sometimes mature people seem to think they can bully younger people. At any rate, your lawyer should be fairly versed in telling him to go fuck himself.

Edited December 8, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[redsnapper]

unless it can be clearly proven u caused the fire BY NEGLIGENCE, DO NOT PAY!!! Cut all contact with owner as he is clearly trying to scam u into paying for damage u did not cause!

 

[Eucnewbie]

I’m going with a fire investigator Monday, will update you guys. Btw I’m 29 and he’s 62. 

[GoGeorgeGo]

Even if it was the EUC you may not be at fault.  It was not neglegent to store an electronic PEV in a home.  The device was faulty making its manufacturer at fault.  

Let the insurance company sort it out, thats what they are there for.  The damages are resolved between the landlord and his insurance company.  The insurance company will come after you if they conclude you are somehow at fault.  DO NOT pay the landlord directly, he can take you to court or his insurance company will.

Edited December 12, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[Eucnewbie]

The landlord doesn’t have insurance, that’s the whole problem. Unfortunately it’s not a legal requirement in Italy to have this insurance and if we don’t find a reason for the fire he can sue me to split the damages, and his are definitely higher than mine. I have a lawyer and I’m following her advice, Monday we are going with a private fire inspector I hired. If I can find that it’s the house’s fault then I could sue for all my damages, since he’s not even willing to give me back the deposit on the flat. The firefighter’s report just said probable short circuit, with no mention of lithium batteries, but still they didn’t do a proper investigation and it’s still possible to take it to court by both sides. It’s a really big hassle but I guess at least now I’m confident it wasn’t the EUC and I ordered a new Kingsong S18 to replace my “old” brand new EUCs😁

[Eucnewbie]

Also I had 2 EUCs leaning on each other from different brands so it would probably be impossible to say which one did it since they are completely destroyed by the lithium fire.

[GoGeorgeGo]

3 hours ago, Eucnewbie said:

if we don’t find a reason for the fire he can sue me to split the damages

 

3 hours ago, Eucnewbie said:

The firefighter’s report just said probable short circuit, with no mention of lithium batteries

Im not a lawyer so keep listening to your lawyer for sure. But this sounds to me like there is no evidence you caused the fire.  He can take you to court all he wants it does not mean he will win anything.  He is the one that needs to prove that you where negligent, do not go out of your way to prove it was the EUCs that caused the fire. 

Not sure what the standard is in Italy, but in the USA the fire marshall will determine the cause of a fire within 24 hours usually.  What he says lretty much goes, if he said its a short circuit then it was a short circuit.  They are highly trained to recognize these things, they are not just guessing. 

His lack of insurance is not your problem.  Being a homeowner without insurance is dumb enough but to rent a property to someone and not have it insured? This landlord was just asking for problems 

Edited December 12, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[Eucnewbie]

19 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

 

Im not a lawyer so keep listening to your lawyer for sure. But this sounds to me like there is no evidence you caused the fire.  He can take you to court all he wants it does not mean he will win anything.  He is the one that needs to prove that you where negligent, do not go out of your way to prove it was the EUCs that caused the fire. 

Not sure what the standard is in Italy, but in the USA the fire marshall will determine the cause of a fire within 24 hours usually.  What he says lretty much goes, if he said its a short circuit then it was a short circuit.  They are highly trained to recognize these things, they are not just guessing. 

His lack of insurance is not your problem.  Being a homeowner without insurance is dumb enough but to rent a property to someone and not have it insured? This landlord was just asking for problems 

Yeah, hopefully it all goes to nothing but the laws here are very different, also the fire department wrote it was a “probable short circuit”, so there is a weasel word there already, and they didn’t specify the dynamic, and I had to wait 3 weeks for the report. Maybe I’ll get a second opinion from a different lawyer and figure out what I have to do.