US elections "system"

[Coco66]

I tried to hold my horses, but I cannot any more...

Can somebody explain how it is possible that in the US:
•    every state has different ways and timeframes to vote
•    voting starts long before election day and ends... no one really knows when
•    the number of votes for a candidate has no direct influence on the result
•    it will take days (or even weeks) to have the votes counted
How Is This Possible.

In Europe (and I honestly think in most of the "civilized" world), it works like this:
•    you vote on the voting day
•    you have been informed about your poll station location, and you go there to vote
•    if you go somewhere else... naa!
•    if you don't have your ID... naa!
•    after the voting window is over, they close and start counting the ballots, and they count them all
•    normally the full, complete, precise totals are known sometimes during the same night, at the latest the morning after
•    very small exceptions are made for people living abroad (who most of the time can vote from abroad) and people who by medical reasons cannot go to the poll station.
Does this approach not make so much more sense?

Edited November 5, 2020 by Coco66

[Toad]

At least elections are not firmly controlled by the central government and thereby corruptible all-at-once. The variety bothers mostly outsiders and nationwide media companies. On the bright side, variety allows innovation that sometimes spreads from state to state. Likewise, the carping about the electoral college is mostly vapid. To say that it protects the people of the countryside from being drowned out by the cities may be overly generous, but the fact is that anyone who wants a vote that counts double is free to move to such a place.

[Coco66]

10 hours ago, Toad said:

The variety bothers mostly outsiders and nationwide media companies. 

It just does not look right... I feel that each state should be able to do whatever they want when it's up to state elections or such, but all the states should be forced to do the same when it's about union-wide stuff. That''s about the distribution of responsibilities between states and federal government, I feel that in this topic it is not correct.

On the other hand, for sure the US have a population distribution which is very different from Europe... so maybe different needs of postal voting instead of asking people to travel 50 miles to the next bigger town. But again, do it the same everywhere...

Edited November 6, 2020 by Coco66

[Bob Eisenman]

18 hours ago, Coco66 said:

Does this approach not make so much more sense?

 

18 hours ago, Coco66 said:

tried to hold my horses

"You still have horses?"🤭

Voting results as of Friday morning looked like:

Maybe Europe has more significant problems with mail in ballot fraud.

Maybe the smaller physical size of European countries makes showing up at a voters home voting station less of an issue than for the US which also includes Alaska and Hawaii

"The conterminous United States extends 4,662 km (2,897 mi) ENE — WSW and 4,583 km (2,848 mi) SSE – NNW . It is bordered on the N by Canada, on the E by the Atlantic Ocean, on the S by the Gulf of Mexico and Mexico, and on the W by the Pacific Ocean, with a total boundary length of 17,563 km (10,913 mi)."

Unlike European countries which maintain a monarchy democratic rule of law prevails in the US.

Covid 19 concerns have increased voter fears of contracting the disease at crowded public events.

A study in Nature conveys that 

https://www.nature.com/articles/d41586-020-02979-x

Nevada, California, Vermont and New Jersey residents were sent mail in ballots for the 2020 election only.

 

"NEWS EXPLAINER 

 23 OCTOBER 2020

 

COVID and the US election: will the rise of mail-in voting affect the result?

With record numbers of postal ballots expected because of the pandemic, Nature dives into the data."

 

[Coco66]

26 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

"You still have horses?"🤭

 

Yeah, as all Americans know very well, in Europe we don't have cars (yet) but still use horse-drawn carriages... 

 

27 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

Unlike European countries which maintain a monarchy democratic rule of law prevails in the US.

LOL. That's the best joke ever.

That's what they sell to you?

In red the Monarchies of Europe.

Most of the monarchies in Europe are constitutional monarchies, which means that the monarch does not influence the politics of the state: either the monarch is legally prohibited from doing so, or the monarch does not utilize the political powers vested in the office by convention. The exceptions are Liechtenstein and Monaco, which are usually considered semi-constitutional monarchies due to the large influence the princes still have on politics, and Vatican City, which is a absolute monarchy. There is currently no major campaign to abolish the monarchy (see monarchism and republicanism) in any of the twelve states, although there is a small minority of republicans in many of them (e.g. the political organisation Republic in the United Kingdom). Currently six of the twelve monarchies are members of the European Union: Belgium, Denmark, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Spain and Sweden.

This (from Wikipedia) meaning that the european monarchs don't have a role much different from any other european countries president - democracy is still in effect, my friend.

31 minutes ago, Bob Eisenman said:

Nevada, California, Vermont and New Jersey residents were sent mail in ballots for the 2020 election only.

Well, neither California nor New Jersey strike me as places where "showing up at a voters home voting station" would be conplicated 

[Bob Eisenman]

@Coco66

The geopolitical landscape for places I've lived, visited or was taught about in school in the US contrasts in the timeline continuum from Europe which traces it's history to artifacts from the stone age, Neanderthal bones, castles, monarchies, various conquests and the crusades to mention a few.

Timeline of statehood in US for several states :

Ex.

California - statehood 1850

Hawaii - statehood 1959

Alaska - statehood 1959

North Dakota - statehood 1889

As a kid in grade school I lived in Pennsylvania, moving from NY State. My Dad bought a house after my grandmother passed away. It was in an area of farmland. My friend lived across the street, a 2 lane highway improved with loss of land to three lanes and his father was a mechanic. My friend played the organ. After living in the house for a year or so the Catholic dioceses of Scranton (birth town of Joe Biden) funded the construction of a sizeable church across the road/next to my friends house. The petition for the churches construction reads:

https://sites.google.com/view/stjohnboscochurchconyngham/about-sjb/our-history

My friend, whose father did snowplowing for the new church, took me in with his mother. His mother put a religious covering over her head and my friend played the song 'Alley Cat' on the churches pipe organ.😁

 

In the town of Sybertsville, just down the street, was(is) a monestary and pond. In the winter the monks would come out and play hockey with us on the pond. It would not be until my high school/college years that the sport of ice hockey would be redefined competitively with fights, fast breaks, hip checks into the boards and skating backwards like a defenseman or with players like Boston Bruins, Bobby Orr winning the Stanley Cup.

My father was an Army vet serving in WWII in the Pacific and we would go to the bar for vets (Valley vets) on the weekend. There was a music box (45 rpm), darts and stuff.

https://www.facebook.com/218199894861094/

Moving in the late 1960s to Massachusetts where the local history goes

Plymouth Rock (pilgrims landing) - 1620

Newbury (plantation) - about twenty miles away - 1635

I pass 'Byfield Parish' church and cemetery (1872) on the Monster when I ride it to Newburyport.

https://www.byfieldparish.org/

Contrast this with church history in Spain, such as the

Mosque–Cathedral of Córdoba

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mosque–Cathedral_of_Córdoba

Events like the Civil war (1861-1865)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War

and the battle at Gettysburg (been there)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gettysburg

have a had a more significant effect on the US than most people in Europe appreciate.

After WWII the strategic nuclear arms race set some chilling standards of global destruction that changed the tone of 'peace and politics' in ways that made US history on its own soil seem less significant until recent racial tensions brought the problems back into focus.

 

Hummm...wow...did I really write all that?😟😒😬😱😎☠️🙃☺️

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Bob Eisenman

[Tawpie]

An overly simplistic answer is that the US is a confederation of states whose constitution's preamble lays out the purpose of banding together: "…to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish…". We are indeed a monolithic political entity but that entity is composed of a collection of independently governed regions (think in terms of the EU as the confederation and each member country as a 'state'). There's a constant tension between "state's rights" and federal oversight—election law, including federal elections, has been mostly governed by state law… the dates are set federally but how the election is conducted is determined by each individual state. This leaves each state's law making bodies free to decide the details, and every state takes liberal advantage.

So you end up with a mishmash of rules and it's never pretty, not totally fair, and in general looks worse than it really is. I think that until the late 1800s elections were handled by a headcount—you had to actually be there in person, but that went away because folk could be coerced into voting a certain way because people could verify how you voted (I understand the secret ballot was an Aussie idea). Since then the states have been trying to figure out how to do secret balloting without fraud and (recently) without blatantly excluding specific classes of voters. Just 20 years ago I had to ensure my registration was current several months in advance, show up on election day at a designated polling place within a specific timeframe, show government ID to prove my identity (and chat with a precinct worker who was a neighbor and we usually knew each other or their kids), sign a paper ledger to get my ballot and drop it into a box under the watchful eye of another poll worker. Now my ballot appears in my mailbox about a month before it's due and I leave it for the letter carrier or deposit it into a drop box on the street. It is counted if it's received by the deadline and the scrawl on the outside of the envelope reasonably matches the signature on my 40 year old voter registration form. Is the process I use now to vote better/safer/fairer/easier/more secure than it was before? Viewpoints on this are a bit like armpits, everybody has a couple and they all stink.

The answers aren't easy… all elections are difficult.

Edited November 6, 2020 by Tawpie
wordsmith

[Bob Eisenman]

@Coco66

A bit off the topic of ballot counting, election results delays , etc. but....

Live from the Byfield Parish(1702) burial grounds

https://www.byfieldparish.org/

next town over from the town of Rowley(settled in 1639)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rowley,_Massachusetts

...not that long ago by European standards. They grew a lot of salt hay in the marshes of Newbury.

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2020 by Bob Eisenman

[Bob Eisenman]

6 hours ago, Coco66 said:

Unlike European countries which maintain a monarchy

I should have said some remaining monarchy's exist in Europe....anyway ... thanks for the explanatory map.

[Gasmantle]

I've always regarded the USA as some kinda backward nation that needs to come into the 21st century.

Mind you in a nation where half the population still think the earth is 6000 yrs old and evolution is a myth then it's to be expected.

[Toad]

I don't know where you get 6000 from... sounds a bit high... perhaps it is metric?

[Coco66]

1 hour ago, Toad said:

I don't know where you get 6000 from... sounds a bit high... perhaps it is metric?

[.....]

Elections in the USA keep getting messier and messier. I think we should all have to report to a local voting station(IF we choose to vote). Prove we are legally a resident here with appropriate documents, and place a vote in person. A logistic pain in the ass, but who said collecting the opinion of millions, was an easy task? Being an election that concerns federal level candidates, I don't see why theres not a federal mandate of policy. State elections should be exempt from federal policies. Its a total shit show, and dead people and illegal invaders are voting in droves. Mail in ballot.... what a damn farce. Declare a 3 day holiday to conduct voting and dont let ANY results out until the deal is done. We are not incapable of making this a routine and reliable process. The reason it is so difficult and easy to lie/cheat/steal, is beacuse the powers that be, are counting on it to be that way. The electoral college makes sense and doesnt. I mean shit, how fair is it to let the clusterfuk of illegals and dead people in the overly populated areas, depict how the entire middle of the country should behave? How fair is it to let the majority vote, lose? Its a catch 22 tho. We have to be united, but we dont want to be infringed. Meh, clustefuk and I just sit back and watch the shit show. I know how its all going to wind up on a longer timeline, this crap in the middle is of no consequence anyhow.

I say, 'vote Shanesplanet for president 2024!'  Hell, the standards are low enough now, I wont screw it up any worse than the next guy. ON top of that, I'll keep my f**king mouth shut a lot and let my paid advisors speak for me. Okay, maybe I'll be offensive every now and then, but i promise you won't have to wonder if I even grasp the language I speak.  I'll be accepting campaign donations in any form you want to give!

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[travsformation]

@Coco66 The article and video below might help answer your question. As context, bear in mind that each state has its own set of rules for how and when early/absentee voting/mail-in voting are conducted, whether they're counted before or after in-person votes when the polls close on election day, etc., which is already quite a mess to begin with. Add that this year, fear of contracting COVID-19 by voting in-person, as well as high social tension, have significantly increased the percentage of early voting/mail-in voting.

"Mail-in voting – often called absentee voting or vote-by-mail – has slowly but steadily gained in popularity in the United States. And it received a big boost this year as primary season ran head-on into the novel coronavirus pandemic. Mail-in ballots accounted for just over half of this year’s primary votes cast in the 37 states (plus the District of Columbia) for which data is available. That was roughly double the mail-in share of the vote in those same jurisdictions in the 2018 and 2016 general elections"  Source: https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2020/10/13/mail-in-voting-became-much-more-common-in-2020-primaries-as-covid-19-spread/

 

 

If you fancy delving further into the strange, confusing and honestly, embarrassing (because it's the system still being used today) history of the electoral college system, check out the video below

Edit: Hurray to me for adding more controversy (racial issues) to an already delicate topic. But honestly, I'm hoping it won't stir up any confrontation because...the three fifths clause...the year is 2020....[Sigh...]...

 

Edited November 9, 2020 by travsformation

[travsformation]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I say, 'vote Shanesplanet for president 2024!'  Hell, the standards are low enough now, I wont screw it up any worse than the next guy. ON top of that, I'll keep my f**king mouth shut a lot and let my paid advisors speak for me. Okay, maybe I'll be offensive every now and then, but i promise you won't have to wonder if I even grasp the language I speak.  I'll be accepting campaign donations in any form you want to give!

You can count on my vote!

 

[atdlzpae]

That's interesting... Gamblers on PredictIt still give Trump 15% chance of winning.
It looks like the next month will be very exciting... House of Cards season 2020 episode 11 just began.

[travsformation]

7 minutes ago, atdlzpae said:

It looks like the next month will be very exciting... House of Cards season 2020 episode 11 just began.