Please don't repeat my mistake: EUC Overlean in cold foggy weather rider fail🤦🏻‍♂️.Unexpected fast crash

[Zopper]

1 hour ago, mrelwood said:

That’s my style. Still using the Cratoni C-Maniac v1, but probably ordering the v2 any day now. It’s one the cheapest light but decent MTB helmets with a chin bar.

I have the V2. It’s nice and light, although I think that the lightness comes with only a very basic face protection. So, I’m combining it with a full face MC helmed. Cratoni for offroad or short trips, MC for traffic catching and hard rides (unless it’s too hot).

1 hour ago, litewave said:

Finally, you are paying extra for the convertible/removable chin bar. This is a feature I thought I might use but never have.

I’m using it a lot. Especially on my MC helmet, which has flippable (rather than removable) chin guard. How else am I supposed to drink coffee?  Removable chin guard is not as nice as you have to hold it - and then you could hold the helmet as well. But the helmet is still protecting you while zipping around with a cup in one hand.

[mrelwood]

 

16 hours ago, litewave said:

Also, the 3R typically sold for $165US dollars for most of the past three years, and was often discounted down to $125 for less popular colors.

Here the Bell costs about $100 more.

16 hours ago, litewave said:

Finally, you are paying extra for the convertible/removable chin bar.

It’s still the cheapest helmet of that kind that has the fast size adjustment that I definitely need, as the thickness of the hood I use changes a lot with weather.

I never really needed the removability of the chin bar either, and the locking system still became bad on the v1. Luckily the v2 locks much better.

I had to choose from the limited offerings that are available in our country with a good return deal. For that the Cratoni is simply unmatched.

[litewave]

15 hours ago, Zopper said:

I have the V2. It’s nice and light, although I think that the lightness comes with only a very basic face protection. So, I’m combining it with a full face MC helmed. Cratoni for offroad or short trips, MC for traffic catching and hard rides (unless it’s too hot).

I’m using it a lot. Especially on my MC helmet, which has flippable (rather than removable) chin guard. How else am I supposed to drink coffee?  Removable chin guard is not as nice as you have to hold it - and then you could hold the helmet as well. But the helmet is still protecting you while zipping around with a cup in one hand.

I have a modular MC helmet also but never use it for riding EUCs, as it feels too heavy for zipping around on one wheel. I see your point about drinking coffee or soda while seated on a motorcycle at full stop (only). I cringe when I watch @Duf cruising down a Florida highway on the road shoulder on a Sherman at 35+mph drinking DD coffee, though. 

Edited February 19, 2021 by litewave

[EUChristian]

21 hours ago, Faster said:

How about this style.  It's a bit pricy.  I'm hoping to find something similar but without the $250 price tag.  

 

https://www.amazon.com/Bell-Super-Helmet-Downdraft-Gunmetal/dp/B07GT83ZSK/ref=pd_rhf_sc_p_img_3?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=J20EBYMM7P2B7ZWB8Q3V

I own this helmet. I fell face first wearing this at 32.5 MPH on the V11, contorting my legs up around my body as I used my neck as a pivot point.  

A. Helmet fully protected my face

B. Helmet survived intact with no damage

C. The helmet is light. I do not want to wear a moto helmet due to weight and I'm not paying the amount of money necessary to negate the issue. 

D. Buying helmet will make you happy as your face will remain intact and everyone loves an intact face 

[Faster]

23 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

 

B. Helmet survived intact with no damage

 

Forgive me for nitpicking, but no damage to the helmet?!  How is that possible?  Did the helmet generate its own force field upon impact?  

[Zopper]

7 hours ago, litewave said:

I have a modular MC helmet also but never use it for riding EUCs, as it feels too heavy for zipping around on one wheel. I see your point about drinking coffee or soda while seated on a motorcycle at full stop (only). I cringe when I watch @Duf cruising down a Florida highway on the road shoulder on a Sherman at 35+mph drinking DD coffee, though. 

One does not have to ride 35 mph to enjoy his coffee. A 5 mph EUC stroll on an empty sidewalk tastes good too.  And yes, I always stop MC when I want to do anything else than driving. You can’t run off it if anything happens.  

[EUChristian]

15 hours ago, Faster said:

Forgive me for nitpicking, but no damage to the helmet?!  How is that possible?  Did the helmet generate its own force field upon impact?  

Nitpicking encouraged.

 

It sustained scratches but no structural integrity damage. Are you used to helmets exploding at impact?

[Mono]

43 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

Nitpicking encouraged.

 

It sustained scratches but no structural integrity damage. Are you used to helmets exploding at impact?

It is usually considered that "structural integrity damage" can not be excluded by visual inspection. I don't know if it is true, but it is at least convenient for helmet manufacturers. What was your way of determination?

Edited February 20, 2021 by Mono

[Rich Sam]

10 minutes ago, Mono said:

It is usually considered that "structural integrity damage" can not be excluded by visual inspection. I don't know if it is true, but it is at least convenient for helmet manufacturers. What was your way of determination?

haha yeah, just about every helmet I EVER bought says you should discard after impact.... Yeah that's going to happen!!

[Tawpie]

Some helmets are better able to survive and still provide (some) protection after crashes (Troy Lee with EPP impact foam, EPP is typically found in ski/snowboard helmets), but almost all of others including the 3R are considered "single crash only" because the internal foam is made of EPS (expanded polystyrene—basically styrofoam) and that suffers permanent deformation absorbing energy from the crash. You might not be able to tell, especially if the outer shell isn't cracked or broken.

Bell has a crash replacement program in the US and parts of the EU that discounts a replacement... might be worth checking out. https://www.bellhelmets.com/customer-service/crash-replacement.html

A reference on construction: https://www.apexbikes.com/what-are-bike-helmets-made-of/

[Rich Sam]

8 minutes ago, Tawpie said:

Some helmets are better able to survive and still provide (some) protection after crashes (Troy Lee with EPP impact foam, EPP is typically found in ski/snowboard helmets), but almost all of others including the 3R are considered "single crash only" because the internal foam is made of EPS (expanded polystyrene—basically styrofoam) and that suffers permanent deformation absorbing energy from the crash. You might not be able to tell, especially if the outer shell isn't cracked or broken.

Bell has a crash replacement program in the US and parts of the EU that discounts a replacement... might be worth checking out. https://www.bellhelmets.com/customer-service/crash-replacement.html

A reference on construction: https://www.apexbikes.com/what-are-bike-helmets-made-of/

I don't doubt there may be science to back it up,  I can say without hesitation that there is NO WAY I'm throwing away a helmet that took a hit, and I can't visually see anything wrong with it after a close inspection.  I'm not made of that kind of money.

I only started wearing helmets in my old age, all my childhood depravity of youth skateboarder and BMX riding was all done without a helmet.  I figure even if I had a leather pad on my cranium that is better than I had growing up!

[null]

26 minutes ago, Rich Sam said:

I don't doubt there may be science to back it up,  I can say without hesitation that there is NO WAY I'm throwing away a helmet that took a hit, and I can't visually see anything wrong with it after a close inspection.  I'm not made of that kind of money.

I only started wearing helmets in my old age, all my childhood depravity of youth skateboarder and BMX riding was all done without a helmet.  I figure even if I had a leather pad on my cranium that is better than I had growing up!

Agreed, also a lot of helmets are "supposed" to be thrown away after as little as 5 years from production date. I understand plastics are degassing etc, but I'm not throwing out a 250€ helmet after 5 years. Manufacturers should provide a degradation curve, so you can get an idea of how far it is from initial rating. 90% efficient is enough for me .

Edited February 20, 2021 by null

[Rich Sam]

1 minute ago, null said:

Agreed, also a lot of helmets are "supposed" to be thrown away after as little as 5 years from production date. I understand plastics are degassing etc, but I'm not throwing out a 250E helmet after 5 years. Manufacturers should provide a degradation curve, so you can get an idea of how far it is from initial rating. 90% efficient if enough for me .

Yes my thoughts exactly.  Now with that said... I'm a HUGE supporter of wearing pads.  I wear full face helmet, leatt style knee\shin, wrist sliders. I'm just not that quick to rule out a piece of equipment as bad.

[Zopper]

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

Nitpicking encouraged.

 

It sustained scratches but no structural integrity damage. Are you used to helmets exploding at impact?

Actually, I saw a guy who had a too weakly set ski and it unlocked at 90 km/h or so in a curve. He got an unexpected fly time and his helmet literally shattered. Pieces of foam and plastic flew away and the rest looked like what you get from peeling an orange. The guy got a heck of luck though - he just found the runaway ski and kept skiing for the rest of the week without a helmet.

[EUCRexy]

3 hours ago, null said:

Manufacturers should provide a degradation curve, so you can get an idea of how far it is from initial rating. 90% efficient if enough for me .

There's FAR too many variables to consider for an OEM to even come close to being able to accurately try to ascertain how effective it'll be after a particular length of time (what type of climate, amount of usage, has it ever gotten wet, has it been exposed to extreme temperature changes, what kind of impacts [if any] has it taken during it's lifetime, etc). All of that needs to be considered to make that kind of blanket statement from an OEM. It just isn't feasible. 

Best thing to do if you take a spill with helmet contact is to check the interior portion of the EPS liner for any indents or cracks. That's usually a sign the helmet needs replaced, as that particular portion of the helmet is no longer structurally sound. Even then, consider that the exterior of a fully covered helmet (exterior plastic/fiberglass/etc) flexes on impact and can flex back, but the liner will not, so what you CAN'T see can still be a problem. 

As for the 5 year recommendation, that's more due to the fact that the liner itself is just going to naturally break down over time and become less efficient. Internal (from different OEMs), as well as third party, studies* have shown that the 5 year recommendation is based more off average use** than extremes in either direction (based off time and mileage use; those who ride daily vs those who may ride 3-4 times a month) and they've simply concluded that after that rough time period it has a high likelihood of not being in spec for whatever safety standard it was certified for. The shells rarely break down to a point of being unusable or losing any structural integrity as the plastics and other materials used don't generally get exposed to much due to being painted/sealed and the like. 

(*I'll see if I can find a couple links to the source. I deal with this stuff for a living and just can't remember where I recently read it. ** All of this is third party data based in the motorcycle industry, so it's only slightly applicable for bicycle helmets and the like.)

At the end of the day, you do you. Just wanted to get some more info out there, that way you can make a better informed decision as to whether or not to replace a crashed or old helmet. Ride safe, y'all. 

[Tawpie]

It’s a fact of the consumer economy that the money is in the disposable, so it’s no surprise that when a business can find any reason that supports tossing a helmet, it’s game on. Sure, the degradation arguments are reasonable, but they are also wonderfully convenient.

I can’t think of a solid reason bike helmets aren’t made like snow sport or American football or hockey helmets, able to sustain multiple impacts without significant loss of their protective function. Maybe EPS is a little lighter than EPP, maybe it’s cheaper, but if there’s good money to be made selling replacements for one-crash helmets you have to have a moral compass or other marketing reason for EPP to make sense to the bottom line.

The entire personal padding industry is built on a risk management foundation. Fortunately, like life insurance, you get to decide what works best for you.

[EUCRexy]

3 hours ago, Tawpie said:

I can’t think of a solid reason bike helmets aren’t made like snow sport or American football or hockey helmets, able to sustain multiple impacts without significant loss of their protective function. Maybe EPS is a little lighter than EPP, maybe it’s cheaper, but if there’s good money to be made selling replacements for one-crash helmets you have to have a moral compass or other marketing reason for EPP to make sense to the bottom line.

I'll look into that actually. There are a few EPP helmets on the market (none that I know of in the motorcycle industry, only bicycle) but I don't know enough about the differences. From what I remember, I think you need more EPP to get the same effectiveness as EPS, but again, that could be wrong. I'll get with my reps to see if they can enlighten me on the differences a little bit. EMTB manufacturers are trying to get into the dealership and a few of our distributors have already picked up some MTB gear, so hopefully they can get me some info.

I do like the idea of a multi-impact helmet, especially more bicycle (or EUC) use, though I wouldn't want it for a motorcycle one, lol. I do actually use a MX helmet for my EUC (which actually needs an inspection since I took a particularly hard faceplant last month) and find it suitable for my own needs. Been looking into the DH helmets lately as a replacement anyway though. Save some weight, get some more ventilation, and in general be more comfortable.

And I agree, deciding what works for you is always the best way to go. I managed to find a woman to marry this face, I wear a full-face helmet so I don't f**k it up and she changes her mind.

[Rich Sam]

47 minutes ago, EUCRexy said:

And I agree, deciding what works for you is always the best way to go. I managed to find a woman to marry this face, I wear a full-face helmet so I don't f**k it up and she changes her mind.

haha yes to that!  I'm in the same boat.  Plus we are putting a lot of faith into electronics that it is not going to fail.  We lean against gravity to tell electronic circuits to hold us up and go forward.  I worked on electronics too long to know the possible failures of these, even if the hardware holds up with possible cold solder joints, component failure and what not, you are relying on software to do the right thing and keep you upright.  It is a small engineering miracle these devices exist, we lean out face\teeth out first daring fate not to F**k with us.

[null]

1 hour ago, EUCRexy said:

There's FAR too many variables to consider for an OEM to even come close to being able to accurately try to ascertain how effective it'll be after a particular length of time

Sure, but then how do they specify 5 or 10 years? I agree with your point but still think it is usefull to have an idea which would be some manufacturer neutral-ish environment. You can factor in your environment from there.

Edited February 20, 2021 by null

[Tawpie]

Odds are, for a company that operates or has offices in the US, any marketing statements regarding safety are coming through or directly from corporate legal. We loves us a lawsuit, so the literature had better be 100% defensible in front of a group of people who aren't badly needed at work (aka: jury). The manufacturer willl claim what they can prove, and since they're recommending when you should buy more of their product, why extend the recommended lifespan any further than you absolutely have to?

All that mistrust aside, it probably is a good idea to update every now and again. Time on station, hard lessons, and innovation do improve our safety.