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Understanding the real world considerations and implications of Speed VS Torque models


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the torque motor is mostly for 2 types of riders, the very heavy ones and the ones that need low end acceleration (hills, trails, etc).

For all others, in a street riding setting, should always get the speed model. 

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On 7/12/2021 at 6:05 PM, Doug Hnut said:

i have both HT and HS wheels. i love them both for what they are capable of. got the HS as a first wheel and fell in love with it. its was able to handle everything i could throw at it. but as my skills grew i was able to over power the wheel (pedal dip) more and more often. then got a HT wheel, didn't like it at first. speed felt very limiting/dangerous. after almost 2k km on the HT, i now know what its purpose is. super fast acceleration to about 35-40kph, no fear of over powering it during hard acceleration. no fear of leaning too hard up a hill, feels awesome so powerful. now over 20k km combined, i conclude one is zippy and the other is speedy. i would generalize the HT good for riders over 200lb as a first wheel. and HS for those under. for reference i am 172lb today.

strange i am noticing about 10% less range on the HT wheel

Wouldn't be my first wheel but it would be my first high-end/modern wheel. I ride the tesla V2 now. Has anybody gone from the Tesla to the HS model of the MSP or RS? How does the torque compare? I don't ride with aggressive acceleration/braking but I do like to ride on trails and climb hills. I also will hit the beeps on my Tesla pretty regularly and wish I had a bit more speed in there. I'm only about 140lbs/63kg.

Edited by I_Must_Bust
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1 hour ago, I_Must_Bust said:

I do like to ride on trails and climb hills.

speed motors do not like climbing, torque motors performs better in term of range and heat while doing this. but of course depends how much and how long you climb

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12 hours ago, EMA said:

speed motors do not like climbing, torque motors performs better in term of range and heat while doing this. but of course depends how much and how long you climb

I suppose hill climbing isn't an activity I do in itself, I just don't want to run out of power going up a steep hill on dirt for times under 1 minute. The tesla has worked in all situations in the 1250km I've ridden but I don't know if it has a torque advantage over an RS HS given the smaller wheel diameter of the tesla. 

I think my biggest considerations in favor of the torque wheel would probably be braking distance and the access to extra torque for balance when hitting an unseen bump at speed.

@FerdinandK How do you find your Sherman's torque? I understand it is more of a high-speed motor. The weight is the only off-putting thing for me with the Sherman because of my current living situation, but I was considering it. I would like to get a wheel that I won't grow out of for quite a long time.

Edited by I_Must_Bust
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@I_Must_BustTo me, and for my skills, the torque of the vet.sher. seems to be sufficient. I am big and heavy, so also the handling (in and out of another vehicle) seems easy and straight forward. But I am a beginner, I have no comparison (except the V8 of my daughter which I do not want to destroy). I cannot overpower it while braking for now (I have practiced and will practice ...).

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8 hours ago, FerdinandK said:

@I_Must_BustTo me, and for my skills, the torque of the vet.sher. seems to be sufficient. I am big and heavy, so also the handling (in and out of another vehicle) seems easy and straight forward. But I am a beginner, I have no comparison (except the V8 of my daughter which I do not want to destroy). I cannot overpower it while braking for now (I have practiced and will practice ...).

Interesting, thanks for your perspective. The Sherman's top speed seems faster than I would ever want to ride on one wheel but I really like having the buffer zone between my preferred top speed and its top speed. RS HT's top speed of 35mph worries me as I think I might like to go that fast some day, though not much more than that.

For now, I think I'll take your words of "If you are ready to notice the difference, you will know what to get." and wait until I hit at least 2000km before upgrading

Edited by I_Must_Bust
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8 hours ago, EMA said:

if you already ok with the capabilities of the tesla2 you can get the HS with no problems

Yeah, the main question I ask myself is whether this will still be the case after 1-2 years. 

I feel as though I've derailed this thread a bit. I wish I could add a "skip to here" tag for people who are only interested in the main topic. :laughbounce2:

Edited by I_Must_Bust
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On 12/3/2020 at 4:29 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Another datapoint:
I have a two local experienced trail riders who cannot ride their desired terrain using C30 without board overtemp and also frequent overlean. Both are 200lb+ with AT tires and big power pads.

Below is a notional diagram of the differences; note that the 'normal operation' region is possible with both designs.

ACtC-3d0w3GBhi0cyPisDuwzk-ifDleBv-MvMoNi6Po9Pvo-qD2ZYtiCxjWGJY6M1AnLw2aL84J3WRz7jUzBf-AKv15YP6HLIOOMebpdIfnYS1BWrYSwgnP7CWGJceDwcdBl0BgVvuz0rOuMpXgX_M67gd2xIw=w1091-h905-no?authuser=0

One question on this diagram, actually. When braking rather than accelerating while in the "C30 advantage" zone, will it still have a force advantage in braking force or would this be different somehow?

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5 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said:

One question on this diagram, actually. When braking rather than accelerating while in the "C30 advantage" zone, will it still have a force advantage in braking force or would this be different somehow?


you'll not see a big difference in this scenario, c30 motor will brake a bit better from 40mph to 30mph nothing more, after that c38 will have more authority 

( if i understood your question )

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16 hours ago, EMA said:


you'll not see a big difference in this scenario, c30 motor will brake a bit better from 40mph to 30mph nothing more, after that c38 will have more authority 

( if i understood your question )

Yes you did, thanks.

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  • 2 weeks later...

I have the MSX84V and I overpower it quite often when off roading (80-90% of my riding).
Would you say the RS HS can take more abuse (hill climb/accellerate) than MSX84? Or do I need the HT.
Would love the HS as I also find the MSX84 just a bit to slow att high speed.

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28 minutes ago, zeroSIXzero said:

I have the MSX84V and I overpower it quite often when off roading (80-90% of my riding).
Would you say the RS HS can take more abuse (hill climb/accellerate) than MSX84? Or do I need the HT.
Would love the HS as I also find the MSX84 just a bit to slow att high speed.

I would expect for the RS HS to have more oomph for slow hills than the MSX 84v. But if I recall correctly, the RS HT also has more speed than the MSX 84V.

 You say you overpower the MSX “quite often”. To me this sounds like a more important factor than finding it “just a bit too slow”.

I weigh 103kg and love off-roading, and if I were to choose an RS for myself, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second. I’d go for the HT.

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  • 5 months later...

This is a bit of a noob question, but I'm wondering what are the technical differences between the torque versions of EUC's vs the high speed versions? As in, is one safer in terms of voltage output or current drawn? I know the differences in terms of top speed vs acceleration. I'm looking at the EXN HT vs HS and I'm wondering which electrically is safer if there is such a thing.

Syirrus

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15 minutes ago, syirrus said:

EXN HT vs HS and I'm wondering which electrically is safer

Same battery. Same controller. For electrical safety, there is no difference.

Hopefully the earlier posts in this thread can help you decide which motor is right for you :)

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11 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

Same battery. Same controller. For electrical safety, there is no difference.

Hopefully the earlier posts in this thread can help you decide which motor is right for you :)

Got it. I thought I had read that torque versions run cooler potentially. I will will read through this thread and thank you for the response :)

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3 minutes ago, syirrus said:

torque versions run cooler

Yes, but it's a distraction. The HT motor does some things that HS can't; and HS does some things that HT can't.

It doesn't matter that the HS runs a little warm at 40mph... because you can't ride the HT at 40mph at all ;)
(shouldn't)

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Not really a distraction imho, Torque motors runs cooler in any comparable case ( any kind of stuff up to 55kmh for example ) you'll see a lot of difference, almost 10°C in my tests

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I'm a city rider and this is my perspective.

I'd say it comes down to weight. If you're 60kg and not exploring cutout space, then a HS will do everything. You're unlikely to overpower it during emergency braking.

Question: Is the HS or the HT the evolution of tesla/msx motors? Seems to me that HS is the traditional style.

If I remember correctly an older msx84 and an RS-HS climb about the the same grade before "giving up". (RS-HS might have had a slight edge.) It can probably tell you something about their braking performance at very low speeds. "Wrong way" videos often include climbing comparisons between wheels and that might be useful to many in this thread.

My last point I'd like to make is that HT version wheels have less torque after a certain speed (that we don't know yet). People that are used to HS designs (of earlier models) and expect to use nearly the full speed range of a HT wheel might be disappointed. You need a greater speed safety margin on HT to have that "extra" torque available to you.

Let's say you're a playful rider that isn't very lightweight (on a HT wheel). For every tiny increase in speed, you're trading away a greater portion of that precious torque you need. When you are about to run out, you are going to run out "quicker".

Edited by alcatraz
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  • 1 month later...
On 1/6/2022 at 7:11 PM, alcatraz said:

I'm a city rider and this is my perspective.

I'd say it comes down to weight. If you're 60kg and not exploring cutout space, then a HS will do everything. You're unlikely to overpower it during emergency braking.

Question: Is the HS or the HT the evolution of tesla/msx motors? Seems to me that HS is the traditional style.

If I remember correctly an older msx84 and an RS-HS climb about the the same grade before "giving up". (RS-HS might have had a slight edge.) It can probably tell you something about their braking performance at very low speeds. "Wrong way" videos often include climbing comparisons between wheels and that might be useful to many in this thread.

My last point I'd like to make is that HT version wheels have less torque after a certain speed (that we don't know yet). People that are used to HS designs (of earlier models) and expect to use nearly the full speed range of a HT wheel might be disappointed. You need a greater speed safety margin on HT to have that "extra" torque available to you.

Let's say you're a playful rider that isn't very lightweight (on a HT wheel). For every tiny increase in speed, you're trading away a greater portion of that precious torque you need. When you are about to run out, you are going to run out "quicker".

I'm about 65-68kg and, unless I try to, I don't overpower my tesla. Still not sure if I should go with HS or HT for an RS... I'm looking at getting a new wheel for the summer season coming up. I ride trails but not anything like seen on youtube with mountain biking jumps. More like trails that you could ride on a bicycle comfortably. Not sure if I would ever want to go over the top speed of the HT version given that all of my experience is on a lighter and likely less stable wheel. Wouldn't want to hit RS HS top speed on my tesla, that's for sure.

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2 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said:

I'm about 65-68kg and, unless I try to, I don't overpower my tesla. Still not sure if I should go with HS or HT for an RS... I'm looking at getting a new wheel for the summer season coming up. I ride trails but not anything like seen on youtube with mountain biking jumps. More like trails that you could ride on a bicycle comfortably. Not sure if I would ever want to go over the top speed of the HT version given that all of my experience is on a lighter and likely less stable wheel. Wouldn't want to hit RS HS top speed on my tesla, that's for sure.

Are you likely to want to explore the top speeds of the HT model? Like 55-60km/h? Then personally I'd get the HS for the peace of mind. If you've decided that you're going to stay below 50 for the complete ownership of the wheel, then HT is "more".

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