Ben Kim Posted July 13, 2021 Share Posted July 13, 2021 the torque motor is mostly for 2 types of riders, the very heavy ones and the ones that need low end acceleration (hills, trails, etc). For all others, in a street riding setting, should always get the speed model. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post FerdinandK Posted July 13, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 13, 2021 (edited) If you are ready to notice the difference, you will know what to get. If you are riding neither close to the acceleration limits nor to the speed limits both would be fine. To me the "torque" would be more appealing because of the added breaking capability. As important speed and acceleration might seem to be, the ability to decelerate as fast as possible is the most important (also to learn how to do it). The more powerful a bike is, the better "brakes" it needs. Edited July 13, 2021 by FerdinandK 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 (edited) On 7/12/2021 at 6:05 PM, Doug Hnut said: i have both HT and HS wheels. i love them both for what they are capable of. got the HS as a first wheel and fell in love with it. its was able to handle everything i could throw at it. but as my skills grew i was able to over power the wheel (pedal dip) more and more often. then got a HT wheel, didn't like it at first. speed felt very limiting/dangerous. after almost 2k km on the HT, i now know what its purpose is. super fast acceleration to about 35-40kph, no fear of over powering it during hard acceleration. no fear of leaning too hard up a hill, feels awesome so powerful. now over 20k km combined, i conclude one is zippy and the other is speedy. i would generalize the HT good for riders over 200lb as a first wheel. and HS for those under. for reference i am 172lb today. strange i am noticing about 10% less range on the HT wheel Wouldn't be my first wheel but it would be my first high-end/modern wheel. I ride the tesla V2 now. Has anybody gone from the Tesla to the HS model of the MSP or RS? How does the torque compare? I don't ride with aggressive acceleration/braking but I do like to ride on trails and climb hills. I also will hit the beeps on my Tesla pretty regularly and wish I had a bit more speed in there. I'm only about 140lbs/63kg. Edited July 14, 2021 by I_Must_Bust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted July 14, 2021 Share Posted July 14, 2021 1 hour ago, I_Must_Bust said: I do like to ride on trails and climb hills. speed motors do not like climbing, torque motors performs better in term of range and heat while doing this. but of course depends how much and how long you climb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 (edited) 12 hours ago, EMA said: speed motors do not like climbing, torque motors performs better in term of range and heat while doing this. but of course depends how much and how long you climb I suppose hill climbing isn't an activity I do in itself, I just don't want to run out of power going up a steep hill on dirt for times under 1 minute. The tesla has worked in all situations in the 1250km I've ridden but I don't know if it has a torque advantage over an RS HS given the smaller wheel diameter of the tesla. I think my biggest considerations in favor of the torque wheel would probably be braking distance and the access to extra torque for balance when hitting an unseen bump at speed.@FerdinandK How do you find your Sherman's torque? I understand it is more of a high-speed motor. The weight is the only off-putting thing for me with the Sherman because of my current living situation, but I was considering it. I would like to get a wheel that I won't grow out of for quite a long time. Edited July 15, 2021 by I_Must_Bust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FerdinandK Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 @I_Must_BustTo me, and for my skills, the torque of the vet.sher. seems to be sufficient. I am big and heavy, so also the handling (in and out of another vehicle) seems easy and straight forward. But I am a beginner, I have no comparison (except the V8 of my daughter which I do not want to destroy). I cannot overpower it while braking for now (I have practiced and will practice ...). 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted July 15, 2021 Share Posted July 15, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, FerdinandK said: @I_Must_BustTo me, and for my skills, the torque of the vet.sher. seems to be sufficient. I am big and heavy, so also the handling (in and out of another vehicle) seems easy and straight forward. But I am a beginner, I have no comparison (except the V8 of my daughter which I do not want to destroy). I cannot overpower it while braking for now (I have practiced and will practice ...). Interesting, thanks for your perspective. The Sherman's top speed seems faster than I would ever want to ride on one wheel but I really like having the buffer zone between my preferred top speed and its top speed. RS HT's top speed of 35mph worries me as I think I might like to go that fast some day, though not much more than that. For now, I think I'll take your words of "If you are ready to notice the difference, you will know what to get." and wait until I hit at least 2000km before upgrading Edited July 15, 2021 by I_Must_Bust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post EMA Posted July 15, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 15, 2021 12 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said: I suppose hill climbing isn't an activity I do in itself, I just don't want to run out of power going up a steep hill on dirt for times under 1 minute. The tesla has worked in all situations in the 1250km I've ridden but I don't know if it has a torque advantage over an RS HS given the smaller wheel diameter of the tesla. if you already ok with the capabilities of the tesla2 you can get the HS with no problems, it's simply more powerfull 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted July 16, 2021 Share Posted July 16, 2021 (edited) 8 hours ago, EMA said: if you already ok with the capabilities of the tesla2 you can get the HS with no problems Yeah, the main question I ask myself is whether this will still be the case after 1-2 years. I feel as though I've derailed this thread a bit. I wish I could add a "skip to here" tag for people who are only interested in the main topic. Edited July 16, 2021 by I_Must_Bust Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mirtishius Posted July 16, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted July 16, 2021 I am heavy rider and I am more than happy with my MSP c38. You can definitely feel the difference between c38 and c30 motors in real life if the wheel is properly equipped, and I find c38 as a better all-round option in everything except street riding, when you need that steady 40mph+ to keep up with traffic. But for this you would be better off with Sherman anyway. For everything else, a better and SAFER hard acceleration and breaking are the key factors, especially for heavier riders. I see c30 as an option for experienced riders who know themselves why they need it and already know how to safe handle the wheel near its performance limits. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 On 12/3/2020 at 4:29 PM, RagingGrandpa said: Another datapoint: I have a two local experienced trail riders who cannot ride their desired terrain using C30 without board overtemp and also frequent overlean. Both are 200lb+ with AT tires and big power pads. Below is a notional diagram of the differences; note that the 'normal operation' region is possible with both designs. One question on this diagram, actually. When braking rather than accelerating while in the "C30 advantage" zone, will it still have a force advantage in braking force or would this be different somehow? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted July 21, 2021 Share Posted July 21, 2021 5 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said: One question on this diagram, actually. When braking rather than accelerating while in the "C30 advantage" zone, will it still have a force advantage in braking force or would this be different somehow? you'll not see a big difference in this scenario, c30 motor will brake a bit better from 40mph to 30mph nothing more, after that c38 will have more authority ( if i understood your question ) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted July 22, 2021 Share Posted July 22, 2021 16 hours ago, EMA said: you'll not see a big difference in this scenario, c30 motor will brake a bit better from 40mph to 30mph nothing more, after that c38 will have more authority ( if i understood your question ) Yes you did, thanks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zeroSIXzero Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 I have the MSX84V and I overpower it quite often when off roading (80-90% of my riding). Would you say the RS HS can take more abuse (hill climb/accellerate) than MSX84? Or do I need the HT. Would love the HS as I also find the MSX84 just a bit to slow att high speed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted August 3, 2021 Share Posted August 3, 2021 28 minutes ago, zeroSIXzero said: I have the MSX84V and I overpower it quite often when off roading (80-90% of my riding). Would you say the RS HS can take more abuse (hill climb/accellerate) than MSX84? Or do I need the HT. Would love the HS as I also find the MSX84 just a bit to slow att high speed. I would expect for the RS HS to have more oomph for slow hills than the MSX 84v. But if I recall correctly, the RS HT also has more speed than the MSX 84V. You say you overpower the MSX “quite often”. To me this sounds like a more important factor than finding it “just a bit too slow”. I weigh 103kg and love off-roading, and if I were to choose an RS for myself, I wouldn’t hesitate for a second. I’d go for the HT. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post RagingGrandpa Posted August 3, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted August 3, 2021 (edited) 3 hours ago, zeroSIXzero said: Would you say the RS HS can take more abuse (hill climb/accellerate) than MSX84 1300wh? Not really. It's the same exact motor (electrically), and a similar controller (similar max current). Voltage does not matter because torque is limited by current. RS is an upgrade for sure, regardless of which motor you choose. Nicer firmware (adjustable roll angle limit, thank god), much better headlamp, louder beeper, etc. 3 hours ago, zeroSIXzero said: off roading (80-90% of my riding) Definitely get the HT motor. You'll start riding at a level where you use the extra torque. On high berms and landing jumps especially. (You might want to wait for some community feedback on the 2nd generation bearings, which look quite promising...) Edited August 3, 2021 by RagingGrandpa 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syirrus Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 This is a bit of a noob question, but I'm wondering what are the technical differences between the torque versions of EUC's vs the high speed versions? As in, is one safer in terms of voltage output or current drawn? I know the differences in terms of top speed vs acceleration. I'm looking at the EXN HT vs HS and I'm wondering which electrically is safer if there is such a thing. Syirrus 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 15 minutes ago, syirrus said: EXN HT vs HS and I'm wondering which electrically is safer Same battery. Same controller. For electrical safety, there is no difference. Hopefully the earlier posts in this thread can help you decide which motor is right for you 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
syirrus Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 11 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: Same battery. Same controller. For electrical safety, there is no difference. Hopefully the earlier posts in this thread can help you decide which motor is right for you Got it. I thought I had read that torque versions run cooler potentially. I will will read through this thread and thank you for the response 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 3 minutes ago, syirrus said: torque versions run cooler Yes, but it's a distraction. The HT motor does some things that HS can't; and HS does some things that HT can't. It doesn't matter that the HS runs a little warm at 40mph... because you can't ride the HT at 40mph at all (shouldn't) 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EMA Posted January 6, 2022 Share Posted January 6, 2022 Not really a distraction imho, Torque motors runs cooler in any comparable case ( any kind of stuff up to 55kmh for example ) you'll see a lot of difference, almost 10°C in my tests 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Denny Paul Posted January 6, 2022 Popular Post Share Posted January 6, 2022 2 hours ago, syirrus said: This is a bit of a noob question, but I'm wondering what are the technical differences between the torque versions of EUC's vs the high speed versions? As in, is one safer in terms of voltage output or current drawn? I know the differences in terms of top speed vs acceleration. I'm looking at the EXN HT vs HS and I'm wondering which electrically is safer if there is such a thing. Syirrus My personal observation is that HS motors tend to make it easier to pull more amps. I'll explain: for an MSP HT to hit 60 amps you've got to accelerate pretty hard while going close to its 80% max speed beeps, lets say 35 mph. To do that on an MSP HS, if you're going that same 35mph your brain may think "well I've got so much head room left" and the initially acceleration amps drawn will match the HT version. But by holding that acceleration for 2-3 longer than you would on the HT version, you can hit 80+ amps fairly easily and fairly quickly. This is just what I saw through DarknessBot, dunno how reliable those reported metrics are, but they seems fairly consistent with the level of effort I put into accelerating. Mountainous terrain also, so some inclines are involved. So if you want the brainless option HT is likely going to be better for you. Also if you don't see yourself wanting to break mid 30's in mph. You'll also benefit from the HT version as far as accelerating and braking from/to a dead stop. Its the more responsive of the two variants. If you want to go faster tho, then you have no option to go HS, and keep a level head about it. When I got better at riding, I thought the sky's the limit as far as speed goes, the faster the wheel the better. Coming from motorcycles I figured I was ready for it. But I hit 45 mph one day and learned by experience that it's sketchy as hell: you've gotta have the roads memorized to do that or you're leaving things up to chance. Soon after I sold my msp HS and got an HT version. Couldn't be happier with the ride feel from the HT, and the extra level of trust I have in the wheel now. It was fun to check the box of the 40+mph club, but I don't miss it. I live for faster corners, not faster top speed. HT all the way. 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted January 7, 2022 Share Posted January 7, 2022 (edited) I'm a city rider and this is my perspective. I'd say it comes down to weight. If you're 60kg and not exploring cutout space, then a HS will do everything. You're unlikely to overpower it during emergency braking. Question: Is the HS or the HT the evolution of tesla/msx motors? Seems to me that HS is the traditional style. If I remember correctly an older msx84 and an RS-HS climb about the the same grade before "giving up". (RS-HS might have had a slight edge.) It can probably tell you something about their braking performance at very low speeds. "Wrong way" videos often include climbing comparisons between wheels and that might be useful to many in this thread. My last point I'd like to make is that HT version wheels have less torque after a certain speed (that we don't know yet). People that are used to HS designs (of earlier models) and expect to use nearly the full speed range of a HT wheel might be disappointed. You need a greater speed safety margin on HT to have that "extra" torque available to you. Let's say you're a playful rider that isn't very lightweight (on a HT wheel). For every tiny increase in speed, you're trading away a greater portion of that precious torque you need. When you are about to run out, you are going to run out "quicker". Edited January 7, 2022 by alcatraz 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I_Must_Bust Posted February 21, 2022 Share Posted February 21, 2022 On 1/6/2022 at 7:11 PM, alcatraz said: I'm a city rider and this is my perspective. I'd say it comes down to weight. If you're 60kg and not exploring cutout space, then a HS will do everything. You're unlikely to overpower it during emergency braking. Question: Is the HS or the HT the evolution of tesla/msx motors? Seems to me that HS is the traditional style. If I remember correctly an older msx84 and an RS-HS climb about the the same grade before "giving up". (RS-HS might have had a slight edge.) It can probably tell you something about their braking performance at very low speeds. "Wrong way" videos often include climbing comparisons between wheels and that might be useful to many in this thread. My last point I'd like to make is that HT version wheels have less torque after a certain speed (that we don't know yet). People that are used to HS designs (of earlier models) and expect to use nearly the full speed range of a HT wheel might be disappointed. You need a greater speed safety margin on HT to have that "extra" torque available to you. Let's say you're a playful rider that isn't very lightweight (on a HT wheel). For every tiny increase in speed, you're trading away a greater portion of that precious torque you need. When you are about to run out, you are going to run out "quicker". I'm about 65-68kg and, unless I try to, I don't overpower my tesla. Still not sure if I should go with HS or HT for an RS... I'm looking at getting a new wheel for the summer season coming up. I ride trails but not anything like seen on youtube with mountain biking jumps. More like trails that you could ride on a bicycle comfortably. Not sure if I would ever want to go over the top speed of the HT version given that all of my experience is on a lighter and likely less stable wheel. Wouldn't want to hit RS HS top speed on my tesla, that's for sure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alcatraz Posted February 22, 2022 Share Posted February 22, 2022 2 hours ago, I_Must_Bust said: I'm about 65-68kg and, unless I try to, I don't overpower my tesla. Still not sure if I should go with HS or HT for an RS... I'm looking at getting a new wheel for the summer season coming up. I ride trails but not anything like seen on youtube with mountain biking jumps. More like trails that you could ride on a bicycle comfortably. Not sure if I would ever want to go over the top speed of the HT version given that all of my experience is on a lighter and likely less stable wheel. Wouldn't want to hit RS HS top speed on my tesla, that's for sure. Are you likely to want to explore the top speeds of the HT model? Like 55-60km/h? Then personally I'd get the HS for the peace of mind. If you've decided that you're going to stay below 50 for the complete ownership of the wheel, then HT is "more". 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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