Understanding the real world considerations and implications of Speed VS Torque models

[LCS]

Hi all, euc newb here.

Based on a cursory search that I performed, I am sure this topic has been covered a few times (though not exactly in the way that I was expecting, which is why I am starting this new thread). 

There are a few quite deep discussions on how electric motors work, what Torque means, power, etc.  These are very in-depth engineering level technical discussions.  I am starting this thread because I am trying to understand the higher level human aspects of torque vs speed models.

I understand that the gotway c38 vs c30 for example have different magnets, and that at higher speeds, due to the larger magnet sizes, the c38 has more power consumption, i.e. less energy efficiency than the c30, and that this is also where that extra torque comes from.

So, being a new EUC rider, with very little experience, I am trying to understand what some of the longer term considerations are between choosing torque over speed.  I am trying to keep this as generic as possible, and not specific to the c30 vs c38, nevertheless, those are the two models I am trying to decide between.

So, will I hit a wall at some point with the torque model, and want those extra few mph that the c30 offers?  Or will the quick acceleration never get old?

Just curious what your experiences have been regarding long term EUC ownership of either an HS or torque model?

I especially want those who have owned both types of wheels (torque vs HS), but being as how different wheels also have different speeds vs torque ratings, anyone that has owned multiple wheels can chime in with their experience.  When a newb stops being a newb and learns how to ride well, what have you found is most important over time, do you prefer that higher speed rating, or are there different types of rides, some of whom don't care about Top Speed?

Let's try to keep it high level (no engineering level technical details), though objective information is welcome, I'd like to hear about your personal subjective experiences.

Ultimately it would be great if this thread can become a repository of information and experiences that people can read about to decide the ultimate question: 

Torque, or HS?

[Cranium]

If you are a lead foot driver in vehicles and have to be the first off the line at a stop light and apply the brakes hard for stopping, you may desire an EUC with more torque to support your bad but exhilarating habits.

I relate torque vs speed like a bikes gears where you are the motor.  As the motor, you are most efficient pedaling between 90-100 rotations per minute of the crank (cadence).  If you have 3 speed bike but have to choose just one to use all the time, which would it be?  If you choose the lowest gear, you can get up those hills great and when you start going, it is very easy and you can quickly get up to your ideal cadence  But at that cadence, you aren't going very fast and even when you pedal as hard as you can, you aren't able to increase your speed significantly.  If you choose the highest gear, it is harder to start going and acceleration is slower but once you reach the ideal cadence, you are going much faster  For me, I would choose the middle gear to try to have the best of both torque and speed because my riding isn't the type that would require one over the other.

Many EUC's have a good balance of torque/speed.  There are some that have a model that advertises more torque or speed but if you are a normal rider that rides in varying conditions, I personally wouldn't worry too much about the speed variants.  I like speed and usually travel on my S18 at the tiltback speed but if I could go 15 MPH faster, I wouldn't be riding at the tiltback speed.  The risk of accidents at higher speed are of a concern to me. 

[RagingGrandpa]

3 hours ago, LCS said:

Torque, or HS?

I measured the performance difference in this thread.

TL;DR:

• If you want to cruise at or above 35mph, there is only one choice (C30).
   
• If you don't ride offroad...
  Or you don't use power pads....
  you are unlikely to see any performance difference between the two.
   
• If you're >200lb and want to do hilly offroad, the C38 was made for you. It will run cooler and is less likely to have pedal dips / overlean at low speeds.

Because these situations where you can tell a difference between C30 and C38 are so uncommon for the average rider (>35mph; steep hills using power pads), most people will struggle to notice the difference between the two motors, and could ride happily with either.

 

3 hours ago, LCS said:

c38 has more power consumption, i.e. less energy efficiency than the c30

That's not true- energy efficiency and low-cruising-speed range are practically identical between the two motors. Please treat them as "the same range."

Riders have observed about 60 miles range at ~18mph, for all 1800wh Gotway's. Many experienced riders cruise at 30, and will get about 30 miles.

It would be very difficult to accurately measure such a small difference in efficiency during riding, because of the things we can't control accurately: wind, starts and stops, etc.

 

Edited October 27, 2020 by RagingGrandpa

[winterwheel]

26 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

If you're >200lb and want to do hilly offroad, the C38 was made for you. It will run cooler and is less likely to have pedal dips / overlean at low speeds.

There are lots of us in this category.

[LCS]

18 hours ago, RagingGrandpa said:

I measured the performance difference in this thread.

TL;DR:

• If you want to cruise at or above 35mph, there is only one choice (C30).
   
• If you don't ride offroad...
  Or you don't use power pads....
  you are unlikely to see any performance difference between the two.
   
• If you're >200lb and want to do hilly offroad, the C38 was made for you. It will run cooler and is less likely to have pedal dips / overlean at low speeds.
•  

Great work on this comparison @RagingGrandpa!

So as far as Gotway models are concerned, I should have clarified that I was intending to, or speaking of, the RS19 (100V, 1800Wh, 2,600W motor) units.  Are the C30 and C38 model designations comparable to the models you tested in the other thread?  I believe you compared the MSP, the MCM5 and the MSX in the thread you referenced.  Just curious if there's an equivalency between these tested models and the RS19 torque vs HS units?  Maybe I'm confused here but then again I am self-admittedly an euc-newb (so apologies for any confusion I may have caused and thanks in advance for the clarification).

So RS 19 HS -> C30, and RS 19 Torque -> C38 correct? 

If so how does your comparison between the MCM5/MSP/MSX units apply to the RS19 HS vs Torque? 

One final tidbit, yes, I am indeed over 200lbs, but I am not intending to ride hilly terrain, just want the unit to have enough low end power when I call for it.  I do like to accelerate quickly from a standstill that much is true.

 

Edited October 28, 2020 by LCS

[Lukasz]

12 hours ago, LCS said:

 

One final tidbit, yes, I am indeed over 200lbs, but I am not intending to ride hilly terrain, just want the unit to have enough low end power when I call for it.  I do like to accelerate quickly from a standstill that much is true.

 

In real world - You will use "acceleration" in every ride, and You will use "speed over 35mph" very seldom or never unless You are speed demon. 

Dangers of accident crashing at high speed without full gear / FF helmet  (or even when fully protected) are quite high. It may be caused by dog, pedestrian, hole in the road, slippery leaves,  or thousand of other causes not related to rider direct other error (as too high speed will be the rider main error in such case)

So - except a few speed freaks - torque version is more practical solution for most users.

[RagingGrandpa]

15 hours ago, LCS said:

how does your comparison between the MCM5/MSP/MSX units apply to the RS19 HS vs Torque? 

I tested an MSX (C30 motor) against an MSP C38.
The MCM5 V1 was also included for comparison, just because of its noteworthy "high-torque" motor (14" tire, 36mm magnets). Don't get an MCM5 though, low speed small battery...

MSP RS uses a different hub, but is electrically the same motor design as the C30 and C38 found in many previous Gotways (Nikola,MSX,MSP,Monster).
 

15 hours ago, LCS said:

I am not intending to ride hilly terrain, just want the unit to have enough low end power when I call for it. 

You can't go wrong. Grab the first one you can find a good deal on and get out riding before winter shuts us down

The C30 and its 2018 debut with MSX was a real landmark for EUC's- it was finally strong enough for 'reeeeal men' to zip around at 30mph. It's very powerful.
Fast forward to today's 100V systems, the trusty old C30 design now has the headroom needed for real men to zip around at 40mph!
My local big guy street riders have MSP-HS and love it.

Edited October 28, 2020 by RagingGrandpa

[LCS]

gotcha,

so the MSP has been superseded by the Gotway RS 19″.

I found this comparison spreadsheet, pretty much elucidates the difference between the MSP and the new RS models (not much) as you mentioned, the RS is essentially the same motor design as the C30 and C38.

[LCS]

Quote

2 hours ago, Lukasz said:

In real world - You will use "acceleration" in every ride, and You will use "speed over 35mph" very seldom or never unless You are speed demon. 

Dangers of accident crashing at high speed without full gear / FF helmet  (or even when fully protected) are quite high. It may be caused by dog, pedestrian, hole in the road, slippery leaves,  or thousand of other causes not related to rider direct other error (as too high speed will be the rider main error in such case)

So - except a few speed freaks - torque version is more practical solution for most users.

Thanks,

Best advice so far, I have made my decision, RS Torque it is.

[RagingGrandpa]

13 minutes ago, LCS said:

RS is essentially the same motor design as the C30 and C38.

Not just essentially- RS is labeled clearly

On 10/1/2020 at 4:32 AM, Chronic said:

 

With regard to the "continuous power rating" (2000W, 2500W, 2600W, etc), please ignore it because it has no direct impact on speed nor acceleration. Without turning this into a theoretical review... the reason is: the controller is only capable of about 50 amps, regardless of which motor you choose. Shoving 50A into the old "2000W" C30 MSX yields the exact same torque as it would with the new "2600W" C30 MSPRS.

Edited October 28, 2020 by RagingGrandpa

[meepmeepmayer]

32 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said:

With regard to the "continuous power rating" (2000W, 2500W, 2600W, etc), please ignore it because it has no direct impact on speed nor acceleration.

This can't be stressed enough! 

[RockyTop]

I will try to keep this simple. 
Making the magnets bigger makes the motor capable of greater strength. It gives something to pull against. It does not make the motor more efficient. You can burn more energy but you do not have to.

Motors will reach a top speed given a set voltage. You can adjust the speed with the voltage, or with the voltage pattern sent to the motor. ( on off frequency ) .

When designing the motor you can set the speed with the number of poles used in the motor and the resistance of the motor windings. 
 

Now I am going to make a lot of people upset. 

A motor that has a higher speed ( high speed , low torque) has as much torque as a high torque low speed motor under most situations. Why!? .... The further the motor is from top speed the more motivated the motor is to get to that speed. - the closer to top speed your are the less torque you have. This means that the high torque motor is closer to its top speed and has less potential to go faster. In the end everything balances out. Both motors should feel about the same when it comes to torque. The actual benefits to the torque motor is that it can pull hard longer without blowing up. The problem is most people are not Complaining about motors blowing up. They are complaining about the way the wheel feels. “ Does it FEEL like it has more torque?” Well did the motor blow up or did the wheel shutter and make a noise going up a steep hill? If it did you would be part of the 1% of people that need more torque. The other 99% just need to improve their skills. .... and they would be safer on the speed wheel.  I am not trying to make people mad. I am just trying to help out. 
Cheats that give you more perceived torque: 

bigger pedals, Smaller tire, software that is delayed to give you a head start on leaning. 

[EMA]

1 hour ago, RockyTop said:

It does not make the motor more efficient

disagree here, the bigger motor could express the same force with lower amp draw compared to a smaller one. You can easy confirm this if you try msp torque and speed version [ which i have]. Torque version have always more range (acceleration/braking).

 

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

A motor that has a higher speed ( high speed , low torque) has as much torque as a high torque low speed motor under most situations. Why!? .... The further the motor is from top speed the more motivated the motor is to get to that speed. - the closer to top speed your are the less torque you have. This means that the high torque motor is closer to its top speed and has less potential to go faster. In the end everything balances out. Both motors should feel about the same when it comes to torque. The actual benefits to the torque motor is that it can pull hard longer without blowing up. The problem is most people are not Complaining about motors blowing up. They are complaining about the way the wheel feels. “ Does it FEEL like it has more torque?” Well did the motor blow up or did the wheel shutter and make a noise going up a steep hill? If it did you would be part of the 1% of people that need more torque. The other 99% just need to improve their skills. .... and they would be safer on the speed wheel.  I am not trying to make people mad. I am just trying to help out. 

the actual benefit is exactly torque/strenght/authority or whatever you like to call, the riding difference it's pretty visible, you need to lean less to achieve the same speed, response to rider input is simply faster.

if your city is flat you don't notice too much but if you live in a city not flat at all like Rome the difference is huge.

T/S is rider preference, an 84v tesla or msx can do all the hill you want, you don't need last 100v model to go up, as you said it's rider skills.

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Cheats that give you more perceived torque: 

bigger pedals, Smaller tire, software that is delayed to give you a head start on leaning. 

agree

no offense, i'm trying to help too

[RockyTop]

45 minutes ago, EMA said:

disagree here, the bigger motor could express the same force with lower amp draw compared to a smaller one.

Not possible. The motors will use the same amount of energy for the same amount of work unless the ability of the smaller motor is passed. In the same way that a larger motor will waist a very small amount of energy by just being bigger than it needs to be.

 

45 minutes ago, EMA said:

the actual benefit is exactly torque/strenght/authority or whatever you like to call, the riding difference it's pretty visible, you need to lean less to achieve the same speed, response to rider input is simply faster.

True up to a lower speed. 10mph?

Edited October 28, 2020 by RockyTop

[EMA]

14 hours ago, RockyTop said:

Not possible. The motors will use the same amount of energy for the same amount of work unless the ability of the smaller motor is passed. In the same way that a larger motor will waist a very small amount of energy by just being bigger than it needs to be.

absolutely no, if you don't believe it get the wheels and try it

 

14 hours ago, RockyTop said:

True up to a lower speed. 10mph?

up to the top speed around 38mph, motor start feels different around 80% beeps

Edited October 29, 2020 by EMA

[RockyTop]

2 hours ago, EMA said:

absolutely no, if you don't believe it get the wheels and try it

This would brake the laws of thermal dynamics. You said that it uses less amps. Now you are telling me to feel the difference. these are two different things. 

 

2 hours ago, EMA said:

up to the top speed around 38mph, motor start feels different around 80% beeps

Again not possible. The lower wattage/ lower speed motor would by definition have less power at higher speeds. The closer you get to top speed the less potential the motor has. The higher speed motor would take over in the higher speeds. I am guessing 10 mph. 

Look, I am a gotway fan. I think that these torque wheels have a place in the market and I am the market buyer. .... But  Most people would do better with the higher speed motor. The person asking the question is a newb. Most people need to better their skills and stop chasing the "high torque wheel". You are attracting newbs to buy a wheel that only the top 5% of riders can utilize. 

[EMA]

35 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

The higher speed motor would take over in the higher speeds. I am guessing 10 mph.

you are telling me 10mph is a high speed ? do you think the difference between the motors is only in the first 10mph ? 

it's pretty clear you don't know the wheels we are talking about, no offense man
 

36 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

Look, I am a gotway fan. I think that these torque wheels have a place in the market and I am the market buyer. .... But  Most people would do better with the higher speed motor. The person asking the question is a newb. Most people need to better their skills and stop chasing the "high torque wheel". You are attracting newbs to buy a wheel that only the top 5% of riders can utilize. 

i'm not attracting anyone, maybe you are.

i've expressed "real world consideration" becouse i have both wheels and i know them pretty well ( you probably don't )

i'm a fan too, you have a different opinion, no problem 

[fryman]

[RagingGrandpa]

On 12/3/2020 at 3:49 PM, EMA said:

HT or HS is not about what a wheel can do

Another datapoint:
I have a two local experienced trail riders who cannot ride their desired terrain using C30 without board overtemp and also frequent overlean. Both are 200lb+ with AT tires and big power pads.

Below is a notional diagram of the differences; note that the 'normal operation' region is possible with both designs.

Edited September 14, 2023 by RagingGrandpa
(img url)

[I_Must_Bust]

On 12/3/2020 at 4:29 PM, RagingGrandpa said:

Below is a notional diagram of the differences; note that the 'normal operation' region is possible with both designs.

I only wish I knew the speeds at which those line intersections happened. Considering an RS as my 2nd wheel. Also considering the Sherman or a future wheel though -- knows what's just around the corner

[irmatt]

I do trail riding, I also live in a fairly hilly city. I only weigh 135 pounds. I believe my low weight and desire for speed make the high speed variant the choice for me. Dispite the wide range of terrain that I ride on.

[I_Must_Bust]

3 minutes ago, irmatt said:

I do trail riding, I also live in a fairly hilly city. I only weigh 135 pounds. I believe my low weight and desire for speed make the high speed variant the choice for me. Dispite the wide range of terrain that I ride on.

I'm in almost the same boat. About the same weight. My only worry with the HS version is of a cutout if I hit an unseen pothole and suddenly put more demand for torque on the wheel than normal.

Edited July 11, 2021 by I_Must_Bust

[Doug Hnut]

i have both HT and HS wheels. i love them both for what they are capable of. got the HS as a first wheel and fell in love with it. its was able to handle everything i could throw at it. but as my skills grew i was able to over power the wheel (pedal dip) more and more often. then got a HT wheel, didn't like it at first. speed felt very limiting/dangerous. after almost 2k km on the HT, i now know what its purpose is. super fast acceleration to about 35-40kph, no fear of over powering it during hard acceleration. no fear of leaning too hard up a hill, feels awesome so powerful. now over 20k km combined, i conclude one is zippy and the other is speedy. i would generalize the HT good for riders over 200lb as a first wheel. and HS for those under. for reference i am 172lb today.

strange i am noticing about 10% less range on the HT wheel

[Denny Paul]

14 minutes ago, Doug Hnut said:

i have both HT and HS wheels. i love them both for what they are capable of. got the HS as a first wheel and fell in love with it. its was able to handle everything i could throw at it. but as my skills grew i was able to over power the wheel (pedal dip) more and more often. then got a HT wheel, didn't like it at first. speed felt very limiting/dangerous. after almost 2k km on the HT, i now know what its purpose is. super fast acceleration to about 35-40kph, no fear of over powering it during hard acceleration. no fear of leaning too hard up a hill, feels awesome so powerful. now over 20k km combined, i conclude one is zippy and the other is speedy. i would generalize the HT good for riders over 200lb as a first wheel. and HS for those under. for reference i am 172lb today.

strange i am noticing about 10% less range on the HT wheel

Excellent breakdown. Do you find that the HT is more effortless to accelerate/brake with? Or do you really need to wrench on the wheel to start noticing the difference?

[EMA]

usually it's the opposite, HT wheel is a bit effortless and respond a bit faster, anything else is related to riding mode.

 

it also has a bit more range if you don't ride aggressively