User Friendly themes stop the bloody mega-threads. Better threads.

[Finn Bjerke]

Dear moderators. 

Mega threads are not rational. 

Threads about EUC world + Inmotion V11 + Kingsong S18 = 375 pages or more. 

its a mess.  Its too much, I really believe we need to have themes. Some of the topics are just to broad.  The knowledge gatered is worthless if you cant find it.  

[mike_bike_kite]

At the end of the day, it's only you complaining about this. You set up other threads to try and move people but everyone continued on with the old thread.  Why fight what isn't going to change? Why force people to do what they obviously don't want to do? Especially since no-one else is complaining.

[.....]

Research is nothing new for me. I find it all being in chronological order, helps a lot. It doesnt take THAT long to run thru pages and pages, tho my slow internet does get tiring. The search function somewhat works, but I find that google has linked aroun here quite well. I'm not sure that tons of categories that need maintained and followed by all who post, is much a better plan. Im game for whatever is here. I do need to quit rambling as I always do.. Maybe next time...

[mrelwood]

 

45 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I find that google has linked aroun here quite well.

Exactly. It wouldn’t be rational for unpaid moderators of various job descriptions and interests to even try keeping up with fine tuned and always awake Google bots. As a hobby I must add. It’s definitely what I signed or would sign up for.

Moderators did not create or wish for the megathreads. I absolutely agree that a perfectly organized wiki-like structure would be much better for finding information. Or even just a bit more tightly focused thread topics and content, which is what the relatively large forum category upgrade earlier this year was designed to encourage.

But this is not a wiki, this is an open discussion forum. If users see it best to post in a mega threads instead of starting a new well titled topic, that’s what they have the freedom to do. Starting new topics is definitely encouraged, but some users seem to feel a bit reluctant doing so.

 We already discussed the matter with the moderator team, and decided not to intervene, for now.

[meepmeepmayer]

25 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

We already discussed the matter with the moderator team, and decided not to intervene, for now.

Yes we did discuss that a lot. But it's not that easy, people want different things. Trying to fix things in hindsight is hard and will probably not work and frustrate people just as much.

We are definitely prepared for the next KS or IM wheel though (Gotway and Veteran seem to be fine, there's a natural progression of smaller threads). Then, on release day, the old wheel thread will be locked (if we forget, please remind us of that!!). This way at least the pre-release info and speculation is separate from the thread about the existing wheel, for people who start reading later. That's a clear mistake that happened with the 16X, S18, and V11 threads and shouldn't happen again.

[Gasmantle]

On 10/24/2020 at 8:58 AM, Finn Bjerke said:

Dear moderators. 

Mega threads are not rational. 

Threads about EUC world + Inmotion V11 + Kingsong S18 = 375 pages or more. 

its a mess.  Its too much, I really believe we need to have themes. Some of the topics are just to broad.  The knowledge gatered is worthless if you cant find it.  

I've been saying this for ages but no-one ever wants to do anything.

90% of the traffic on this forum is in 10% of the threads to the point that the forum is chaotic.

 

[null]

Many forums have a hard upper limit, ie 50 pages. Then moderation dont have to judge when to stop it.
If people really want to continue the same thread, they can create a new one named pt2 or something.

Edited November 11, 2020 by null

[Gasmantle]

To be honest I think the forum has now lost its way, it used to be a friendly all inclusive site to encourage use of EUC's but that no longer seems to be the case.

People that used to post regularly seem to have disappeared, new members asking beginner questions often get little or no feedback, I think the forum now is little more than a private members club where the same posters talk about the same topics ad nauseum in the same threads to the exclusion of any new material.

 

[mrelwood]

15 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

To be honest I think the forum has now lost its way, it used to be a friendly all inclusive site to encourage use of EUC's but that no longer seems to be the case.

People that used to post regularly seem to have disappeared, new members asking beginner questions often get little or no feedback, I think the forum now is little more than a private members club where the same posters talk about the same topics ad nauseum in the same threads to the exclusion of any new material.

 

I’m sorry to hear you feel this way. What do you think could be done about it?

[Gasmantle]

47 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’m sorry to hear you feel this way. What do you think could be done about it?

Thanks @mrelwoodafter I typed my post I considered deleting it as it comes across terribly negative but I decided to leave it as it is how I feel.

I think ultimately the forum needs a rethink about its goals, if it is a high end enthusiasts forum where the same few members can discuss how firmware 8.76 affects the rubber composition of a tyre then thats fine but that isn't going to be of any interest to Joe Public who wants to buy his first wheel and needs advice how best to spend his £1000. Clearly there is nothing wrong with members discussing 'high end' features but if that starts to become the norm of the chat while others asking basic questions are ignored then something is wrong if the forum is to appeal to the masses.

The original poster of this thread makes a valid point - 90% of the posts to this forum by the same people talking in circles about the same things in an ever growing vast thread that is of little interest to most riders.

A while ago a relatively new member posted a question about a firmware upgrade that hadn't gone quite right, it affected his wheel and needed advice - he got few replies yet at the same time others were just having their usual private chit chat in a 200 page thread about firmware 8.54 and how it affects the fuel economy of the space station.

 

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Gasmantle

[mrelwood]

I’m probably one of those wine sniffers myself, since my time has been more limited lately and my interest towards EUCs in general has taken a more specific shape.

 But I ask again, what do you think could be done about it?

[Gasmantle]

48 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I’m probably one of those wine sniffers myself, since my time has been more limited lately and my interest towards EUCs in general has taken a more specific shape.

 But I ask again, what do you think could be done about it?

Like I say, have a think about the forums market.

If your target is high end enthusiasts then leave it as it is, if you want encourage EUC use then you need to be more inclusive. Can't the 'wine sniffers' take a bit of time to chat to others?  All forums have a few hard core chatters and a lot of lurkers so I'd hardly expect this one to be any different but over the last 6 - 12 mths I think now all you have is the same 10 - 12 posters talking to themselves while the rest of the posts go largely ignored.

Come on guys - it's not rocket science - start encouraging new chat - embrace beginners, tell another newbie how you learnt to ride, offer a bit of advice instead of talking about firmware v4.836 for the umpteenth time in the same tired old thread..

 

 

 

Edited November 11, 2020 by Gasmantle

[meepmeepmayer]

@Gasmantle I understand what you mean. How to have low intensity posters and high intensity posters coexist, without putting off either group. I guess we mods could be stricter with offtopic (it's really hard to separate things some times when there are so many semi-tangents!) and chat-type discussions in threads that aren't strictly about that particular thing. Of course that's easier said than done.

Maybe, if you're particularly unhappy with a topic (no old topics please, the damage is done, but in the future), you could report the post where it goes off the rails. Reports are always a good way to get our attention, doesn't have to be about something super big or bad, but anything.

We're always happy about concrete ideas how we can make this forum better and especially more welcoming and inviting to new members. Question is just how to do that. It's sadly not easy.

The recent forum reorganization with spreading out stuff into more forums was mostly about that - a better overview of what content is available, which should make it easier for everyone, but especially for new people. It isn't perfect, but I think it was an improvement.

[Gasmantle]

4 minutes ago, meepmeepmayer said:

@Gasmantle I understand what you mean. How to have low intensity posters and high intensity posters coexist, without putting off either group. I guess we mods could be stricter with offtopic (it's really hard to separate things some times when there are so many semi-tangents!) and chat-type discussions in threads that aren't strictly about that particular thing. Of course that's easier said than done.

Maybe, if you're particularly unhappy with a topic (no old topics please, the damage is done, but in the future), you could report the post where it goes off the rails. Reports are always a good way to get our attention, doesn't have to be about something super big or bad, but anything.

We're always happy about concrete ideas how we can make this forum better and especially more welcoming and inviting to new members. Question is just how to do that. It's sadly not easy.

The recent forum reorganization with spreading out stuff into more forums was mostly about that - a better overview of what content is available, which should make it easier for everyone, but especially for new people. It isn't perfect, but I think it was an improvement.

The point I'm making is in other forums discussing all manner hobbies / interests there is a wide variety of skills, knowledge etc yet the discussion is broadly speaking all inclusive. The threads are organised to ensure people of varying interests can access the information they seek, lately this forum doesn't do that.

Join any other forum (about anything) and you will find the moderators are all inclusive, they chat to beginners, they encourage new chat, they build a forum to help people and breed common interest. Here we have a situation where the moderators talk to themselves about 'high end' topics in threads that go on forever while newbies get overlooked.

I don't have the forum statistics to hand but I'd wager the popular threads of 100's (if not 1000's) aren't actually popular - they are the same people talking to themselves while the other chat gets overlooked. If some guy posts a review of his wheel here and he isn't a regular contributor with a 2000w machine the post will get unnoticed, at the same time someone else can talk about firmware v8.417 in the enthusiasts thread and whoa we have another 10 pages of chat.

I appreciate my comments aren't popular with the moderating team but I still maintain my position that the forum now is little more than a private members group catering for high end users talking to themselves at the exclusion of others.

[meepmeepmayer]

8 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

I appreciate my comments aren't popular with the moderating team

That's not true

8 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

but I still maintain my position that the forum now is little more than a private members group catering for high end users talking to themselves at the exclusion of others.

How can we improve on that? In concrete ways, if you have some...

[Gasmantle]

Thanks @meepmeepmayer

I'm passionate about EUC's and will do anything I can to promote their usage, I'll do anything I can to help the cause. I don't want to get on the wrong side of the moderating team but I'm a big believer in speaking as I feel if it benefits a common good.

I've been asked a few times to say how I'd change things - I've answered that a few times but the answer gets ignored.

The reality is this is arguably the only EUC forum of any significant size - is it busy? --- No it isn't, it has 1000's of members but has 12 moderators talking to each other about topics of interest to themselves alone. I appreciate I'm painting with a broad brush but that is the reality.

To go back to the original posters point about threads running into 100's of pages - he's right, I support his view. I've made the same point and got nowhere. What kind of forum has 90% of its posts in 3 or 4 threads by perhaps 20 members? They are little more than private chat that ignore the rest of the forum.

 

 

 

[null]

16 minutes ago, Gasmantle said:

I've answered that a few times but the answer gets ignored.

Really, I'd like a quote. I answered to what seemed a suggestion.

Other: You insist the mods and active members are talking too much. I fail to see how that is a problem, the newbies get their answers as it is. Again, it's not either or. 

Edited November 11, 2020 by null

[Gasmantle]

1 minute ago, null said:

Really, I'd like a quote.

You insist the mods are talking too much. Should they stop talking?

I have answered the question - the fact you don't understand is something I can't be responsible for.

Did I say the moderators are talking to much? I'm questioning the content not the quantity.

Isn't this indicative of the forum problems? We now have a moderator quoting what he thinks I've said rather than what I've actually said.

[Gasmantle]

3 minutes ago, null said:

I must be dense, too bad you won't help me understand what we should be doing by quoting yourself.
I give up, as a mod I'm just not up to your standards.

Why the sarcasm?

Can't you appreciate I'm trying to help the forum rather than build walls?

No forum is going to satisfy everyone and I don't expect this to be any different but I'd appreciate it if my comments were listened to by the moderating team without sarcasm.

Like I say - isn't this part of the problem?

[stephen]

@Gasmantle i always press activity  then press all activity  so i get to see every new post made ,I keep upto date on this forum and I consider it to be very helpful to newbies and experienced riders and is very helpful to everyone ,,this forum has helped me throughout the years and is still helping me now

For newbies a Google search or forum search will  bring them to this forum for help and if anything we and every other member is very helpful and always has been ,if a newbie  comes with a problem its mostly answered

After all this is where we got all our information and help and its still providing all that now 

[Gasmantle]

1 minute ago, null said:

@Gasmantle 
I wrote a long paragraph argumentent my cause a couple of posts up. I'm not interested in haggling with you and will stop there. The great thing about this place is that everyone is free to say what they want within the rules, so go on with your suggestions for improvements, I will leave it here.

... and there speaks a moderator.

I rest my case your honour.

[BruceCLin]

From my point of view, mods' only job is to keep a forum turning into total anarchy, which the mods here have done a great job. They don't need to promote nor steer the conversation in any direction. The forum should just be a place for anyone to speak freely within rules. The quality of a community is made of entirely of the users. If you desire the forum to be of higher quality or more attractive to newcomers, feel free to contribute the way you desired, as other will contribute the way they desired.

Edited November 11, 2020 by BruceCLin

[Gasmantle]

35 minutes ago, stephen said:

@Gasmantle i always press activity  then press all activity  so i get to see every new post made ,I keep upto date on this forum and I consider it to be very helpful to newbies and experienced riders and is very helpful to everyone ,,this forum has helped me throughout the years and is still helping me now

For newbies a Google search or forum search will  bring them to this forum for help and if anything we and every other member is very helpful and always has been ,if a newbie  comes with a problem its mostly answered

After all this is where we got all our information and help and its still providing all that now 

Stephen it was a good source of info 12 mths ago but can't you see that isn't the case any more?

We in the UK want EUC's to be legalised and are going to face an uphill struggle whether we like it or not - this is the only forum of any significance, why aren't we promoting EUC usage and chatting about the bigger picture? You know as well as I do that EUC's in the UK are on borrowed time, we need to get together and change things.

If people like yourself could offer more advice and help we'd get further in encouraging greater usage, we need to get EUC's into the public eye and the forum can help if we we stick together.

You live not far from me - have you ever thought that instead of talking about firmware v5.673 we take a couple of wheels to the town centre for members of the public to have a go? I'm sure that will advance the cause and give the forum something new to focus on.

[xiiijojjo]

@Gasmantle I would just like to thank all the moderators for everything they have been doing on this forum for years, if not for the mods and this forum I'd be nowhere as good a rider as I am today, I probably wouldn't be wearing protective gear, and troubleshooting would have been damn near impossible so to all the mods and the forum itself I thank you for everything that you have done, not only for me but for eucs and their evolution and proliferation as well.

I think everyone should take some time to consider that these are unpaid yet extremely knowledgeable enthusiasts and veterans of the technology and so most of their attention or interest is going to naturally be geared towards the higher-end nerdy discussions, but by no means are they exclusively concerned with that and in fact I don't see many other posters in every single category on the forum other than the mods or 1-2 avid posters so you have to at least give them that. 

And when you mention repeatedly that the forum mostly consists of the same 10-15 posters discussing high-level stuff in an ecco chamber I understand what you see but have to disagree with you.

What I have noticed is that most users on this forum post in cyclical patterns like myself. I mostly use the forum a while before I get an euc until a few weeks after getting it and in that time frame I'll be very active here whereas afterwards I'll be more or less just lurking until an issue presents it self and I'll more or less lurk until I order another wheel and the cycle continues... And as I mentioned I don't suspect I'm the only one so the frequent posts from the same people in two weeks will be frequent post from new sets of people but of course you will see the mods in almost every thread. 

But honestly you have not mentioned any way of fixing the issue you point out and im not the only one calling you out on this. Your opinion on what ought to happen in my perception is more or less: "other people should be posting about the stuff I want to see posted about and in the quantities I personally find acceptable but not only that it is the responsibility of mods to manipulate the forum to accommodate this if it doesn't happen naturally." 

The free will of people posting on this forum unfortunately hinders this. 

I don't see any noobs not being helped and there are so many threads covering every single riding style and tip a 100 times over and I assume these noobs have fingers and therefore the ability to use the search function. 

What do you want for every single beginner thread to turn into a 50+ page thread about wobbles or which gear to wear?

I'm sorry if I come out sounding a little confrontational but I simply cannot find an issue with how the forum or the mods operate never have I felt this amount of trust and respect with forum mods in my life. They simply go above and beyond and don't act superior, they are fair and great at keeping a really good and positive community vibe. Instead of resorting to exclusionary measures they try to calm down people and maintain the friendly vibe. 

Respect to the mods! you guys have always been doing a great job around here and are partially to blame for the popularity and evolution of the euc. 

Not only that but you might also be responsible for saving lives by encouraging safe riding and wearing gear

What can I say I'm a simp for the mods. 

 

 

[travsformation]

3 hours ago, Gasmantle said:

Stephen it was a good source of info 12 mths ago but can't you see that isn't the case any more?

We in the UK want EUC's to be legalised and are going to face an uphill struggle whether we like it or not - this is the only forum of any significance, why aren't we promoting EUC usage and chatting about the bigger picture?

@Gasmantle I think the fact we're going around in circles on this subject is down to an inherent misunderstanding in terms of what the forum's purpose is and how it works. This is not a platform to legalise EUCs in the UK or raise the permissible speed limit in Spain; it isn't an EUC academy or a newbie assistance association; it isn't a FW consultancy organization, an electronics engineering discussion group, a performance wheel reviewing board or an exclusive club for EUC connoisseurs. It's none of those things, yet all of them at the same time....It's whatever its users turn it into, because in the end, it's nothing but a common space for EUC enthusiasts to exhange ideas.

Take into account that this is a global community with an extremely diverse user base. Its members come from all corners of the globe, with different views on EUCs, priorities, interests. Some want to see them popularized while others would rather they remain a niche thing. Others want to see us legally equated to other vehicles, but the legal status varies so greatly from country to country that there really isn't enough common ground, in that sense, for there to be any kind of "global consesus". 

I say this because the idea you're trying to convey involves a sense of purpose and direction, which I think the very nature of its global user base stands in the way of. Mods aren't here trying to further a specific cause or lead the forum in a certain direction because there is no common direction to row in to begin with. This is a place to talk about all things EUC, and it's the users that make it whatever it is.

Circumstances change. People's priorities change, so I don't think it's objetively accurate to "reminisce ". Things were slower two years ago, for instance, when KS had just released the 18XL and there was only 1 version of the MSX 

Since then the user-base has increased, a lot of new wheels have been released, especially in the past year, contributing to a constantly hyped up atmosphere, and...well...2020 has been a somewhat unusual year, both in the EUC world and outside of it...

But in any case, I think the specific tone the forum takes on at any given time is highly variable and context-dependent--supposing we can even speak of the forum as a "single entity" to begin with. Rewind a little to the S18 and V11 release and you had two manufacturer-specific forums up in flames, while if you popped by the GW forum, it was super chill with people talking about mods, pads and winter tires.Add a ton more users with the crazy number of releases we've had in recent times (and the excitement of the groundbreaking suspension ones, at that) and you have a chaotic medley of overwhelmed newcomers not knowing what wheel to choose or how to start, and veteran members so caught up deciding which wheel to buy next and discussing tech specs for wheels that haven't even been released and...you get a specific temporary paradigm for the forum. Take away the releases and the whole vibe changes. 

THE Video Thread is another perfect example. Sometimes it saddens me to see how little love a lot of the content posted there gets. Not that long ago if was a thriving thread where every video got its time under the spotlight, feedback from several users, a short discussion...now there are more videos on a single page than likes for all the videos on that page combined. But in context, the number of videos posted there a year ago was less than half of what it is today. Give every user a GoPro or an Insta360,and double the number of users and you suddenly have more offer than demand. The outcome is inevitable.

But like everything, it's tempory and circumstantial. Wait 'til winter settles in and us northern hemisphere folks can no longer ride around all day recording everything we see and uploading it to YT...once we're all huddled indoors, we'll be eating up all the footage the southern hemisphere riders produce and asking for more. And with no riding to be done and no new wheels being released mid-winter (except GW, you never know with them...), the dynamics will change once again, with veteran users less caught up in what has been a crazy year for new wheels, and possibly shifting their attention to engaging with newcomers, answering questions, etc. And other users who were too busy riding will start logging in more often. And users who were learners 3 months ago will now be eager to share their experience with newcomers.

 IMHO, that's the way it's always been, it's just a matter of keeping one's expectations in check and remembering that this is neither a purpose-specific platform (nor something that could be made into one if we wanted to) nor a static entity that remaims the same over time. Users come and go, their priorities evolve, their interests change...and with them, so do forum dynamics. Sometime those will be one's cup of tea, other times they won't, it's just the nature of things. I don't think it's realistic to expect elsewise from a global, highlty diverse community whose only common ground is lunacy 

What you're suggesting is very much like trying to set specific goals and dictate the direction Youtube takes. By it's very nature, it just isn't going to happen. And much like YT, this forum is ultimately whatever its users make it, so my personal take is: Add and create whatever you think it's missing 

Mods are happy to give a helping hand, but we're not here to set a course or tell people which way to walk, just direct the traffic.  

Some initiatives might prosper, others will get derailed, others will turn into something cool and unexpected, others mights not take off the ground. It is what it is. And cohesion will always remain elusive in what is ultimately a virtual version of Noah's Ark where no two species are of the same mind and the only thing we all have in common is our mode of transportation 

Edited November 12, 2020 by travsformation