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A photo of me with the best wheel of 2020. You should know what it is before even clicking.


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I had to double check your posting date... But seems that you haven’t ridden the V11 (or any suspension EUC) just yet. That is an experience that changes how one views the world of EUCs.

 Disregarding that, I’m sure the Sherman is a great wheel for certain needs.

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1 hour ago, photorph said:

I've ridden everything out except the v11, have ridden the S18 plenty.  Demo V11 is coming in shortly from EUCO for our local group so I'll be testing that out as well.  I'm sure it won't be that drastically different suspension wise from S18.

Since pretty much all S18's come out from the factory with a stuck suspension system, it is indeed quite different. As long as the suspension is pumped up correctly for your weight of course. I'd say Inmotion's recommendation -10 psi as a good starting point for the main chambers. 40-50 psi works well for the top chambers.

1 hour ago, photorph said:

Suspension wheels have one aspect they are good at, smoothing out bumps and reducing impact.  But that's it, they have too many other compromises at this stage for me to consider them as the "best wheel".

Best wheel is of course a personal thing, I was commenting to the individual features you mentioned: stability of the Sherman and MSP being "closest to perfection" at trail riding. 

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7 hours ago, photorph said:

Is it perfect? Of course not, no wheel is.  But it's the closet to perfection for street riding currently.   If you are on the fence about this, just get it.  YOLO.  

 

Sigh - a bit jealous about all the positive reviews of the Sherman, certainly range-wise.  But my wheel is for commuting, and my Nik+ is the heaviest thing I'm able to lift up the train, which basically rules out the Sherman for me...

Edited by Kristof Willen
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6 hours ago, Kristof Willen said:

Sigh - a bit jealous about all the positive reviews of the Sherman, certainly range-wise.  But my wheel is for commuting, and my Nik+ is the heaviest thing I'm able to lift up the train, which basically rules out the Sherman for me...

Yea if you are doing a lot of lifting, forget about it.  I use this wheel for leisure riding, group rides, and just exploring.  

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9 hours ago, AtlasP said:

few years from now, very few EUCs will resemble the Sherman in any meaningful way, but most if not all higher-end wheels will have some combination if not all of: suspension, V11-category lights, hollow-bore motors, and more-sophisticated BMS's--with the V11 and InMotion having paved the way. This is why the V11 is the "wheel of the year" as it carries the first true innovations in EUCs in years--and not as some risky ahead-of-its-time experiment with a mix of rough edges/compromises, but as a truly polished, well-rounded product that's already selling like hotcakes.

This is truly why the V11 is the wheel of the year. Its the most polished product, the model wheel for what an EUC is. 
 

But yet, if I asked myself whether to buy a Sherman or a V11, I find myself thinking: What kind of experience am I looking for in an EUC?
 

All I see are limitations when I consider the V11. The limited range, the limited speed, the limited durability. The Sherman has no limits.
 

Ever since I experienced the bliss and freedom of riding with no hands on a Segway mini pro, the experience I wanted out of an EUC is to be free. That freedom demands high enough speeds where I don’t have to worry about cutting out, high enough speeds where I can ride on any road I want. That freedom demands the range to go as far as my eyes can see, the range to not worry about taking a detour to explore. 
 

When you take away all the fluff, the extraneous stuff- the suspension, the automobile lights- you realize the core is what matters the most: the speed and range. That’s what makes you truly free.
 

Some people consider an EUC a superpower. If I wanted a superpower, the power to fly, I would want to be able to fly as fast and as far as possible. I wouldn’t care about how turbulent my flight was, just that I wouldn’t be limited in stamina or speed.  

For me, the #1 wheel is the one that can satisfy your desire to be free. And that’s the Sherman

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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9 hours ago, AtlasP said:

The Sherman is mostly evolutionary/iterative and geared towards a very small niche subset of riders--its defining characteristics are centered around simply higher speeds, bigger batteries, etc. For a certain vocal minority always clamoring for the absolute highest speeds and/or range (and/or desperately wanting a 100v alternative to Gotway's perpetual production issues), the Sherman is of course a very exciting product, but one whose broader impact/relevance has been far overstated, especially at that weight and price (approaching $3k). (It's really very similar to the Monster in a lot of ways--the biggest and fastest for a long time, with a number of objective strengths and a very vocal set of fans, but in the end very few people actually ride them.)

By contrast the V11 is truly revolutionary--the first consumer EUC with an entirely new mechanical feature, suspension, providing categorically better ride quality; categorical improvement to automotive-grade headlight & taillight; the innovation of a hollow-bore motor enabling higher-gauge motor cabling as motors & batteries increase; a revolutionary BMS which monitors individual pack health and enables the wheel to remain balancing even with the failure of entire packs. (And talking about market impact/relevance, it offers these advancements while still exceeding the speed & range requirements of 95+% of riders, coupled with InMotion's industry-leading production values & safety track record, all while hitting the $2k price point--at least $850 cheaper and 17 pounds lighter than the Sherman.)

A few years from now, very few EUCs will resemble the Sherman in any meaningful way, but most if not all higher-end wheels will have some combination if not all of: suspension, V11-category lights, hollow-bore motors, and more-sophisticated BMS's--with the V11 and InMotion having paved the way. This is why the V11 is the "wheel of the year" as it carries the first true innovations in EUCs in years--and not as some risky ahead-of-its-time experiment with a mix of rough edges/compromises, but as a truly polished, well-rounded product that's already selling like hotcakes.

Great points as usual.  But I think you're under estimating the percent of EUC riders that want range and speed above all else.  At least in my local area, 95% of riders want over 30 mph and the most range possible.  You claim that the V11 meets the speed and range requirements of 95% of riders, I would strongly disagree here.  Keep in mind it's not ideal to ride at the max claimed speeds.  If someone wants to go 30 mph, I wouldn't point them to the V11 because that's nearly the max speed of the V11. 

I agree that inmotion did do something somewhat revolutionary, and others soon followed (S18, gotway EX).  But as you are aware the V11 isn't perfect either, it has some flaws.  The main issue for me is that it limits you on speed, and as that small battery pack starts to drain the limitations become more and more apparent.  It certainly isn't a "truly polished well rounded product", there is much room for improvement in hardware and firmware.  A few issues have been pointed out already by riders.  At least inmotion is acknowleding these.  The most recent issue is the tilt-back related to the temperature sensor.  Also the wheel does break easier than say the sherman when dropped at speed.   

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I would have normally agreed with photorph on this one no question, but theres no arguing with that EUCW data. I must admit I am very surprised, I thought the average would be higher than that, especially on, like you say, an 'enthusiasts' app. That said at the end of a riding day I do see 15~20mph as my average riding speed quite often so that would fit with the EUCW data, but theres many occasions when I am off the cycle paths and hitting 35+ on the roads on the same day. For me, it's that ability to go higher if needed that rules out all sub 35mph wheels for me, not to mention the speed headroom (safety) the bigger wheels provide nor the range. Not forgetting of course the speed they can give with a low battery %.

It's also the reason why I upgraded my 84v to 100v, I just ended up hitting the beeps far more than I wanted to. If it was only now and then I wouldn't have bothered. All of my riding buddies are already on or want 100v wheels as well.

As I say though, data is data, and given the figures I guess Inmotion have really appealed to that sector so well done to them I suppose! If I am being totally honest, I think that a 30mph EUC is enough from a safety point of view, despite my own riding speeds. Until proper legislation is in place (for most places) I don't think 40mph+ wheels are helping our cause much...

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Best wheel of the year is definitely the Veteran Sherman.

It’s an amazing wheel because it does everything right... extremely compact, extremely balanced, extremely durable, extremely long range and extremely stable for any class of wheel. Everything is top notch.

Innovations like the roll bar, LCD display, modular, upgradeable and tiltable front and rear lights are firsts for EUCs make the riding experience even better. The flat sides make adding any power pads that you desire possible. Every design detail is well thought out.

It is extremely enjoyable riding the Sherman. I have over 3000 km riding experience on it and still brings a huge smile on my face whenever I go for ride. Never have I to worry about range, speed or voltage sag. This already is priceless in my opinion. Just ride and enjoy the pure bliss of it. Tire is aggressive and aggressive-sounding and handles all terrain easily... makes me feel like a superhuman.

So it doesn’t have suspension. But does adding metal tubes filled with compressed air on an EUC suddenly makes it innovative and worthy of best wheel of 2020? Perhaps in 2021. Suspension wheels so far released in this year have had so many issues... just follow the mega S18 discussion thread to see how sad that thread has devolved. V11 is awesome and my suspension wheel of choice but reliability issues and poor range is hard to recommend. EX is just plain bulbously ugly, weighs even more for less battery, and is a Gotway.

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While I understand why people vote the sherman for the best wheel, the sherman would be very far on my list. There is a point, where you just don't need more range or more speed as the speed is rarely used and not safe, especially where you still have to rely on hearing beeps only at around 50mph, there is no preprogrammed tiltback to know you are starting to go past the limit, you are just guessing even if you watch your speed constantly which is another annoying thing you have to do, the braking and the battery consumption is also getting worse exponentionally. The bigger battery, if you not use if regularlyis just a waste in space, weight, and price...you could almost buy two wheels for its price!!, although it is nice indeed for longevity and avoiding sag.

The lower, narrow, dipping pedals are also a problem..I like to stand with my feet positioning sideways as it is way more comfortable and it is not possible on the shermans narrow pedals, the low clearance also got me into trouble on other wheels and its annoying when you scrape it, so I want to avoid it if I can, dipping just makes this worse.

The clearance issue again with the roll bar going very far over the tire makes it possible to hit it while going over obstacles which I do a lot, and also makes it worse if you plan to install any non knobby tire, which would be more befenicial in more scenarios than a knobby.

The display...I'm really not sure if it is needed? I don't see myself getting any use of it..there are easier ways to show battery status and the app is there for everything else

As I go with my wheel everywhere, it would be a pain having to turn off and on everytime I need to lift it and have to use both hands for it, not even talking about the weight, which is noticable when riding as well, especially low speeds...At least the trolley handle seems to be good enough.

Not having suspension is another big comfort and safety factor that needs to be taken into consideration from now..

It is still a wider wheel with no comfortable side padding at all...the waterproofing and the maintenance just got worse if anything over previous gotway models, I still can't update the firmware, it still has the old axle design, still no mudguard in the box, it is very loud and vibrates. At least you can adjust the light to not be blinding and it won't fall apart at the first fall, so we are getting somewhere.

These are just a few things came into my mind suddenly, in short, it is just a waste for most people, they would be better off with something else, but it is the best if you require speed and range only.

My vote goes to the v11 as well for having the highest speed of a nongotway wheel, best lights, suspension, kickstand, app options(there is a ton!), pedal clearance, comparable range to kingsong wheels, super slim design, good waterproofing, hollow motor, wide pedals, best new trolley handle design, small silent 2.5A  stock charger with a possibility of using 2, and a very good price for what it offers, and the accessories for it are still coming.

I Don't think gotway and nongotway riders ever going to agree, that's just how it is

Edited by Ádám Szitás
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7 minutes ago, Ádám Szitás said:

My vote goes to the v11 as well for having the highest speed of a nongotway wheel, best lights, suspension, kickstand, app options(there is a ton!), pedal clearance, comparable range to kingsong wheels, super slim design, good waterproofing, hollow motor, wide pedals, best new trolley handle design. small silent 2.5A  stock charger with a possibility of using 2, and a very good price for what it offers, and the accessories for it are still coming.

I agreed with some of your reasoning:

  • best lights - agree
  • kickstand - agree
  • super slim design - agree

But the rest seemed a little questionable:

  • highest speed of a nongotway wheel - is that honestly a thing?
  • suspension - 2 other makers have suspension
  • app options - ?
  • pedal clearance - useful if you're navigating a rocky trail but then you might need a bag to collect all the broken pieces if you fall!
  • comparable range to kingsong wheels - as in it has about 60% range of an XL or a 16X or were you comparing to the KS14S?
  • good waterproofing - I don't think it's been out long enough to say but didn't Duf's wheel die in the rain?
  • hollow motor - and that's good because?
  • wide pedals - which is similar to most modern high capacity wheels
  • best new trolley handle design - better than the 16X or 18XL?
  • small silent 2.5A  stock charger - so a small charger is good then?

 

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13 minutes ago, mike_bike_kite said:
  • is that honestly a thing? Yes, it is the first that allows 55kmh/34mph with a well functioning preprogrammed tiltback
  • 2 other makers have suspension - yes, which is good, but the sherman does not
  • app options - you can force turn off/on fans, put your own sounds in for everything or even mute them all, you can adjust the headlight power, you can adjust the pedal movement in 0-100% percent sensitivity, monitor battery backs seperately, even the diagnostics and statistics are much better than for other brands
  •  useful if you're navigating a rocky trail but then you might need a bag to collect all the broken pieces if you fall! - seriously?
  •  as in it has about 60% range of an XL or a 16X or were you comparing to the KS14S? - it has only 74 less wh battery than the xl or 16x and it let's you deplete the battery to 63V versus the kingsongs 60V which is again new for anything outside kingsong
  • I don't think it's been out long enough to say but didn't Duf's wheel die in the rain? - yes the early bearings where questionable but the battery and control board is very well protected
  • and that's good because? - because this is going to be a new standard for many reasons: fatter wires, no more breaking, loosening axle
  • which is similar to most modern high capacity wheels - yes, but not the s18 or the sherman
  • better than the 16X or 18XL? - the problem with those handles is they are not too consistent(lift sensor) , rattle on bumps, cant lean them to the wall because they are diagonal, have to put them back in to pick it up, and they break instantly if they fall when open and hit something
  • so a small charger is good then? - it is good because they don't sound like a vacuum cleaner and don't take up much space

 

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I think I could easily argue against all your points but I'll cherry pick anyway. You're saying it has similar range to the 18XL and 16X because it has the same size battery pack even though it's actual range is a bit over 40 miles while the 18XL and 16X both get over 60 miles. So you're saying it's the best wheel because it's it offers 35mph for the first 20% of the battery but obviously that's not counting Gotway or Sherman which both go faster and for far longer.  Most folk say the KS16X has the best handle followed by the KS18XL but the handle on the V11 looks fairly decent as long as you're not tall. Does the V11 actually have fatter wires to make use of the hollow motor? - it certainly looked like standard wiring in the photos plus that hollow motor makes the wheel 1.5Kg heavier than it needs to be plus the only axels that break tend to be on older Gotway wheels. I'm honestly not sure whether your argument that a small charger making it it the vest wheel is meant as humour.

I'm actually willing to ignore the large number of broken wheels we saw in videos (Martin's had to be sent back after dying on overheat hill, Duf's wheel had to be sent back after riding it in heavy rain, Hsiang's wheel disintegrated after hitting a parked car and Jimmy Chang's saddle broke on his wheel). If you'd argued that the V11 deserves to be the best wheel of 2020 because it introduced a number of innovations like suspension, proper lighting and a stand then I could understand your point. I could also understand if you said this is best wheel of 2020 because it's one of the first wheels that can be considered a serious form of transport rather than as an expensive toy for adults. But definitely not for any of the points you raised. ;) 

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There is no magic in range, have you tried both and you only got 40mile on the v11 and over 60 on the 16x with the same usage? I doubt that. It is more than 1554wh gotways and less than 1554wh kingsongs.

Yes I did not count gotway here, because the points I said in my first post, but maybe that only concerns me, it is a big thing that we are breaking the 30mph barrier with other manufacturers with their different safety implementations. I always had to worry pushing gotways as I know I wouldn't hear the beeps and I sure did not know where exactly is the limit how much I can go.

I used the 16x handle for several months and that is exactly why I say these points. Maybe others don't use it much or I have a different perspective or use case here too.

Yes the V11 does not use thicker wires but it is a step in the right direction.

I'm also willing to ignore the large number of broken wheels as we can find those with any type of wheel, especially the earlier days or with big crashes involved.

And yes I mentioned those points like you say as well, I just said my perspective on why the sherman wouldn't be my wheel of choice, and why I like the direction wheels like the v11 is going, continuing to improve basically everything compared to last years wheels, listening to the users, staying convenient while still providing a safe and quality wheel without rising the price.

 

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20 hours ago, AtlasP said:

I'm not estimating anything/we don't have to estimate. Seba has provided rider statistics gathered from EUC World:

(Source: https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/16554-inmotion-v11-2020/page/28/?tab=comments#comment-308064 )

And that's just the users of EUC World, which would be heavily skewed *toward* enthusiast riders (not including casuals who only use the stock app or no app at all, and who would just bring all those numbers down even further).

There's really little room for debate when we have such a massive data set. On one hand you have the skewed anecdotes of enthusiasts in their bubble ("well all my buddies on our 90s-era forum and in my little riding friend group..."); on the other hand is actual data from over 55,000(!) EUC trips from the biggest enthusiast-centric third-party ride tracking app.

Ultimately for the vast majority of EUC riders the speed & range delta between a V11 and Sherman would be indistinguishable to them because they would simply never exceed the speed or range capabilities of the V11 or any of the other ~$2k/84v wheels.

Ah yes.  There's lies, damn lies, and statistics.  

The average riding speed doesn't mean anything because it takes into account any time that you were in motion, including all the times you are slow rolling to get around pedestrians or just going slow for whatever other reason.  That's not the only reason the data is skewed towards the lower end, one big reason is that sometimes the GPS doesn't recognize you are stopped and keeps recording.  Most of your stops are quick stop and go situations, in those instances the app will continue to record the ride and factor that into your average speed. 

My average riding speeds are around what the EUC world data indicates as well, even though I'm blasting to speeds near 40 mph often.  But the amount of time I spend at the slower speeds skews that data and lowers the average speed.

Now you may say "what about the max speed data?", well that shows for actual rides max speed average is 40-50km/hr, or 25-31 mph.  Also note this data doesn't take into account darkness bot users, and there's plenty of those.  But let's say the average max is close to the 27-30 mph range.  In that case I'd still advise a wheel that can go significantly faster than 30 mph to give you a good buffer.  If the average max was in the low 20 mph range, the V11 would be sufficient.  A 5-10 mph buffer from the top speed is preferable for safety.  

Putting the data aside it's pretty simple, riders who prefer to ride at 25 mph or lower would benefit more from the V11 and riders who like to go faster than 25 mph would benefit more from a wheel where the top speed is above 34++ mph.  

Edited by photorph
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58 minutes ago, photorph said:

A 5-10 mph buffer from the top speed is preferable for safety.  

I don’t think the ridable top speed is a worthy reference point. Take KS for example, both 16X and S18 (both 50km/h wheels) are recommended by many to be kept below 40km/h (or at least under 45km/h) due to sudden loss of power near the top speed. The V11 has zero issues hauling my 108kg riding weight up to 48-53km/h on a daily basis. And keeping it there for a while. And being the most stable high speed ride available today.

 The buffer that each manufacturer uses is very different, so referencing to that speed skews the scales unnecessarily. Some people ride GW wheels up to 10Km/h from the free air speed. So they would ride the V11 all the way up to 70km/h if it didn’t have an arbitrary software speed limit.

 Also, the low battery top speed limiting of the V11 is much more generous than on any other speed limited EUC I know of. The top speed is 50km/h all the way down to 70V. And still around 40km/h at 68V. 0% is 63V, so it then drops very fast for the last 5km.

I think the V11 is perfectly fine for 50-55 km/h max speed riders. 16X and S18 aren’t, by a long shot.

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Lucky us that there are so many wheels out. I have yet to try an Inmotion V11 or any suspension wheel for that matter. Who knows... it might change my life.
What I do like though... is riding trails, jumping at skate parks and riding down stairs.. for that I use my old trusty MSX but an MSP would be more solid.
And what I love the most is high speed cruising and exploring. For this I use my 1Rad Nikola with a 2664Wh battery.
The top speed is not that important to me as long as I can touch 60kmh now and then... which I easily can.
What is important is that I can ride it at 50kmh all the way down to 10% of that huge 2664Wh battery.
I have mixed feelings about my 6000km old CST C-1448 tyre I am using on it.. it behaves quite a lot like a Z10 or first batch 16X on irregular asphalt.
Riding with an MSP rider he was down to 33% battery of his 1800Wh. I was down to 55% of my 2664Wh.
He had 600Wh left. I had 1400Wh left. 3 donuts are better than 2. Unless you are going to only eat 2 of them. No big deal though we had some beers and he charged the wheel.

For me... having a 29.5kg wheel is not so bad. One handed lifting up stairs is no problem. Trolley handle does what it should. Lights are great. Water resistance  is great. SmartBMS is great.

The Loomo 2660Wh Nikolas perform almost equally wheel although I do get a bit better range on my 1Rad wheel.. maybe 10%.

I rode my 16X at 50kmh very often... just about every ride. So do the other 16X riders in our group.
One of my battery connectors on the 16X shorted last year.. I was still riding the wheel at full speed with only one battery pack being used.
Took me a while to figure out why I got so much voltage sag and lost so much range.
The 16X feels like a sketchy death machine to me now.

The MSP HT has an amazing feeling of power. It just goes on and on and swallows everything up. I went for a nice cruise in the city last night and the MSP behaved perfectly on all kinds of crappy asphalt. If the V11 is like a MSP HT but with suspension then that would be quite an achievement.

A friend of mine has ordered the V11 and it will be fun to try it out. Who knows I might even buy one. In these times of luxury where we get to choose things we like.
Big Macs or Whoppers. All it costs and money and we have to make money anyway. So we just get some of that left over money and buy a wheel. Or two.

My thoughts on the Sherman... the best bang for buck wheel out there right now when it comes to speed*battery/price also known as my fun index formula.
A rough document here: 
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TXmNs9pDb99aFzv34-kSjTu5T4ttha4ZA0Y2kPcMoGY/edit#gid=0

Time stamp embedded in link:

 

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31 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

My thoughts on the Sherman... the best bang for buck wheel out there right now when it comes to speed*battery/price also known as my fun index formula.

The problem with your fun calculation is that it unfairly favours large battery wheels. Your list might as well be a list of wheels with the biggest batteries. Something like an Mten3 would likely be near the bottom of your list while something like a monster is great if you want to do long distances but is that really fun? Personally I think you need to include motor power and weight somehow.

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The Sherman is an extreme, which makes it the "best" wheel for some riders, and a bad one for others.

EUCs have some unique benefits/strengths as vehicles. If I had to designate a specific wheel as best, it would be one that "is good at being an EUC". In that perspective, the Sherman would be very far down on that list. I'm sure riding it is fun, but so is (probably) riding a motorcycle. And it is not obvious to me why the Sherman is a better choice than a motorcycle if range and speed are the only criterias worth considering.

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