micro Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Your point seems to be that when you are driving an electric car too fast it has to stop. IPS (your wheel) decided not to have the BMS independent of the control. No good idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuts Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 2 hours ago, micro said: Your point seems to be that when you are driving an electric car too fast it has to stop. IPS (your wheel) decided not to have the BMS independent of the control. No good idea? My main point really is that every EU has its limits and if you push those limits your EU will likely fail. Having a bigger battery will help prevent (Not eliminate) shutdowns. Torque shutdowns (As with fast acceleration) usually happen when you have mid to low battery power and you are going up an incline at the same speed you would normally do with full battery. The EU will likely not give out any sound warnings or pedal tilt back because everything is happening at a condensed time frame maybe 2-3 seconds. Speed shutdowns are similar, in that at full battery the main worry is over speeding more than the electric engine can handle. As the battery is used up your top speed lowers, warning sounds and pedal tilt back come sooner. If you are ignoring what your EU is telling you and still push it as if you had full battery the EU will fail. With such a small battery size the X3 comes with you wouldn't need to be riding for that long for you to get to that stage. One of the main issues I believe Geowurm faced is that after riding a beast of a machine such as the Msuper with minimum of 600WH battery and fast speeds is that the X3 would have been a very big step back for him. Maybe 1/3 of a machine as the Msuper. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 In my accident I probably outaccelerated or outspeeded the NoName x3. -> User error In my accident my X3 shut down without any warning. No beep, no lift of pedal, no nothing. Plain silent shut down. -> Design error Every "all day usage thing" will or should give you a feedback when used out of limits. If a thing will shut down as warning for the operator that he is using the item out of the limits will put the operator without further warning in emmediate danger ist just stupid engineering. Lets put it in this way: to switch off the airplane engines because the fuel level falls below 10 % to prevent damages for the engine without any warning is plain stupid. Not that I want to compare a ewheel with a plane, but the engineering reaction of a technical or user error should be equal. "give a warning and prevent damages for the user" and not a "safety shut down" without warning to prevent damages for the machine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Sorry to hear about your accident and hoping for your speedy recovery. As an sales in Unicycle manufacotory, Below suggest might have some mean. But i sure that you might get same thing. 1 Never over the speedy low/fast than limited, The item might have little design problem for BMS that if you run out of the limited speedy, it might drop your off，or suddenlly stop，Expecially the earlier product. 2.Keeping yourself within a safe situation.（protect yourself within safe cover, you can not run, untill you can walk, right? Even you can run, but you can not run so fast that you can't breath, right?） 3.Buy a insurance for your self. if you always run out of mind to keep high speed without an protect instruction. Even car have the accident protect system, but there still thousands of persons die out there. Below might be the important things that you might know. 1. Not all the productor own the newest technology in the BMS developing. The BMS had been developing to the third edition now, within China, but there is not enough company accept that. Cuz, change an system cost too much. And not all the product wanna to be long term productor in this area. Just for quickly money, 2. The product is an newest items, such like Iphone, Have your ever use iphone 3 or other earlier product? The first product might can not meet the most client need, right? Bad signal, bad custom experience~ But now, Iphone is grow up as a major cell phone brand right? Any product should need the " Laboratory rat " or other words "risker"to test, If you do not have the courage to overcome it, maybe bicycle might more fit your need. But pls take care, you musk take care of the speed, if you can not keep balance, or always over speedy is not a good choose. 3. Keep your speed under control. You can not blame a knife cut your finger,lead to your side do not have the right position to used it right? Not the all the China factory product cheap items, "No guts, no glories"~~ You always get the items that you paid for. Any quiries, feel free to talk to us~ Remark: We have product libility insurance valided 250 Million dollar for any damage, caused by our product quality. And you can suit the guy who sale you the item... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bush Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 And for Unycle, the low speed items is more danger that the High speed edition. Cuz the BMS is based on bicycle dynamic equilibrium, or other words "Gyroscope", Just the elestric motor instand of human power, BMS instand of your body system. The fast you run, the equilibrium you have. But according to the situation you suffer, it's the PCB design problem, same as the earlier product used. It's not the rarely seen in IPS earlly product~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lovely Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Why they doesnt make the wheel stop gradually, if power is too weak and finally turn it off, when it stops, rather than shut off unexpectedly, which will cause big risk for users..? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 41 minutes ago, Lovely said: Why they doesnt make the wheel stop gradually, if power is too weak and finally turn it off, when it stops, rather than shut off unexpectedly, which will cause big risk for users..? That's the question, and that is what you'd expect a EU to do. But no. When you really need it, the cheap designed ones it will just shut down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuts Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 2 hours ago, Lovely said: Why they doesnt make the wheel stop gradually, if power is too weak and finally turn it off, when it stops, rather than shut off unexpectedly, which will cause big risk for users..? The problem works both ways actually... Too high a power draw from the battery and the BMS wants to protect the battery and cuts the power, no power to your wheel equals shutdown. Too low a draw from the battery would mean the EU is not getting enough power to stay functional properly. So any exertions that you perform on the wheel (Such as hard acceleration) would likely cause you to faceplant. So really there is a "Safe" window where the EU will perform at its best. This window becomes smaller and smaller over time when the battery gets low. Any sudden spikes either way will cause your EU to fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cranium Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 3 hours ago, Lovely said: Why they doesnt make the wheel stop gradually, if power is too weak and finally turn it off, when it stops, rather than shut off unexpectedly, which will cause big risk for users..? The problem with both the hoverboards and the EUs is that the Battery Management System (BMS) is completely separate from the control board logic. The BMS is designed for one sole purpose...to protect the battery. It will prevent overcharging, balance the cells, protect against short circuits and possibly (but not sure) provide thermal protection to the battery circuit as well. This is to make sure that the battery is operated as safely as possible and minimize the risk of a fire. When it does protect itself it is with indifference to what is drawing the current and this is the issue. It will face plant you. The solution would be to design the BMS to work with the control board(s) to tell the control board to stop or to reduce the speed to reduce current draw. But there are no designs I've heard of yet that do this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetpapi Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Sorry about your accident, my friend. I wish you a speedy recovery. I am firm believer in protective gear while riding but your accident makes me think what ELSE can we wear? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 On 07/12/2015 at 0:23 AM, Planetpapi said: Sorry about your accident, my friend. I wish you a speedy recovery. I am firm believer in protective gear while riding but your accident makes me think what ELSE can we wear? The pedal got me from behind, so neither knee pads nor shin guards had prevent this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citiboi Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 That looks really painful!! Here's wishing you a speedy recovery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 37 minutes ago, citiboi said: That looks really painful!! Here's wishing you a speedy recovery. Dr. said with some luck and without infection it will take 4 - 6 months of recovery. Right now I am on antibiotics to fight / prevent an infection. Hope to keep my leg! But tell y the truth, even here in the hospital I dream of nice rides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
citiboi Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 OMG!! 4 - 6 months??? That is just horrendous!! I feel for you... DO recover FULLY (with your bone fully fused) before riding again. If you love speed, get a reliable and fast euc BUT do not exceed 75% of the max speed. And never ride with the battery running at less than 20%. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
playdad Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 That is one scary X-ray. I feel the pain just looking at it! I hope you get well really quick. Will taking calcium etc speed things up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 8 hours ago, Geowurm said: Dr. said with some luck and without infection it will take 4 - 6 months of recovery. Right now I am on antibiotics to fight / prevent an infection. Hope to keep my leg! But tell y the truth, even here in the hospital I dream of nice rides. Hoping again for your speedy recovery. I feel your eagerness to ride once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 On 6. Dezember 2015 at 1:03 AM, Achim63 said: I'm in Treptow - and intend to wheel over to Kreuzberg to my workplace with the EUC as soon as I'm confident enough to leave the corridor of our flat. Though I'm not so sure any more after reading that it's completely outlawed in Germany right now (I feel like living in a police state ... can't wait to get my rent and move to the Canary Islands ...). Yesterday my own electric unicycle behaved on a small slope in a way that I fell backwards. I wore knee and wrist guards and only suffered from a small bruise. People were very concerned and friendly. The situation was not at all dangerous nor was I (consciously) pushing the wheel too hard. It just tilted backwards like hell all of a sudden and what happened then was too fast to analyse it later. I am sure that the electric unicycle will be banned from public spaces for a long time because they just are not safe enough. They seem to be a Russian roulette, to say the least. I have ordered a helmet yesterday. To me it seems that the construction of the electric unicycle (no matter if they are cheap or expensive) is a problem that is unsolved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 1 hour ago, ScooterB said: 1 hour ago, ScooterB said: Yesterday my own electric unicycle behaved on a small slope in a way that I fell backwards. I wore knee and wrist guards and only suffered from a small bruise. People were very concerned and friendly. The situation was not at all dangerous nor was I (consciously) pushing the wheel too hard. It just tilted backwards like hell all of a sudden and what happened then was too fast to analyse it later. I am sure that the electric unicycle will be banned from public spaces for a long time because they just are not safe enough. They seem to be a Russian roulette, to say the least. I have ordered a helmet yesterday. To me it seems that the construction of the electric unicycle (no matter if they are cheap or expensive) is a problem that is unsolved. Yesterday my own electric unicycle behaved on a small slope in a way that I fell backwards. I wore knee and wrist guards and only suffered from a small bruise. People were very concerned and friendly. The situation was not at all dangerous nor was I (consciously) pushing the wheel too hard. It just tilted backwards like hell all of a sudden and what happened then was too fast to analyse it later. I am sure that the electric unicycle will be banned from public spaces for a long time because they just are not safe enough. They seem to be a Russian roulette, to say the least. I have ordered a helmet yesterday. To me it seems that the construction of the electric unicycle (no matter if they are cheap or expensive) is a problem that is unsolved. Dear ScooterB, With a well-designed EU without BMS shutdown, and a healthy well filled battery, these things are a pleasure and pretty safe to run. Problems occur when these things without any warning shut down. Because every sudden shut down will make you fall. There is no question about that. I had in the learning phase 4 minor accidents (fell on my butt or face plant) but after this 2 - 3 weeks of learning I used it on a daily base to commute. I had one driver errors that caused fells, one of them damaged my phone, the other caused a ripped trouser and a bloody knee, but this was plain driver errors that I caused. (Jump down from the boardwalk to the wet street with slippery leafs was one, the second was at a post where I was unable to decide to take it on the right or left side and hit it in the middle :-). I went about 10 - 20 km while learning, and after that about 40 km/week for about the last 2 months, totaling around 400-500 km mostly on the Osdrich T1. My accident occurred on the second ride on a cheap VEVOR X3 that I got for my kids. It ended in perfect road conditions with a BMS Shutdown without any warning while accelerating, causing serious physical damages with at least 3 – 4 months of recovery. I think these EUs are a great personal transport system in between pedestrians and bicycles, that need more skills to learn to ride them than it looks at first sight. It is just a question of time that slower and curious pedestrians will get hurt (probably by the pedals) and will sue the rider or / and manufacturer of the EU. Time will tell where they will find their spot. Right now I am in the hospital and will not be able to ride mine for the next 3 months. But I dream here in the bed to jump on and ride down the street. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chuts Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Oh man... that is one of the worst injuries I have heard of from an EU rider. Its one thing to hear you broke your leg via text but to actually seeing your x-ray gives a whole new understanding to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Planetpapi Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 On 12/7/2015 at 9:13 AM, Geowurm said: When you really need it, the cheap designed ones it will just shut down. Besides the technical feasabilities there is one superior thing that dominates. Human GREED. The hunger for absolute quick buck. When supplies are abundant, know-how is cheap, regulations are none, responsibility is zero, traceability is difficult, where is the incentive for a fly-by-night manufacturer to produce a quality product in China? As I said quick buck is the only incentive. The end users like you and me become victims at someone else attitude. Unfortunately the mind boggling brands and it's cheap prices attract uninformed buyers. We blindly trust and fall for the cheap and pay the real price later. Bad situation. Really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colestien Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 On 12/7/2015 at 0:15 PM, Cranium said: The solution would be to design the BMS to work with the control board(s) to tell the control board to stop or to reduce the speed to reduce current draw. But there are no designs I've heard of yet that do this. Wow, I've been here a while reading even before I was able to ride. That statement made a lightbulb go off over my head!! I hope Kingsong, and Gotway Hell everyone who are making Wheels, are reading that. I believe that would be a big step in making a safe Wheel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kwing Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Sorry to hear about your experience. Actually I hear the "sudden" stop is very common but there wasn't a conclusion about the issue. My tg wheel also has the same issue. There is thiss long 30 degrees slope in a park where my tg kept stopping suddenly half way I have a feeling it's because it's putting a lot of strain on it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Geowurm Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 19 hours ago, Kevin Fung said: Sorry to hear about your experience. Actually I hear the "sudden" stop is very common but there wasn't a conclusion about the issue. My tg wheel also has the same issue. There is thiss long 30 degrees slope in a park where my tg kept stopping suddenly half way I have a feeling it's because it's putting a lot of strain on it? Sounds like overheating -> BMS shutdown or undervoltage because of to small bateries for this task -> BMS shutdown The problem is, that BMS shutdowns happen without any warning, causing fatal accidents. If the BMS instead of shut down notice the mainboard that the batteries are out of spec to give a warning probably most accidents could be prevented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMo Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 My electric scooter suddenly stopped working at around 20% battery life due to bms shutdown. It happened when I was driving it upwards from the underground tunnel ramp going to the park. My son was riding with me and we had a combined weight of around 100 kgs. Nothing happened to us since it was a 2 wheeled scooter. It is not the same when riding the EUC which just loses its ability to balance then freewheels and dislodges the rider resulting in a face plant or worse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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