How much does COLD affect your RANGE?

[Tryptych]

With winter coming on I am curious if anyone has ever tested how much power/range is lost when the temperature is below freezing. Does anyone know of a range test that was done in warm weather and then again in cold? 

Is it a minor difference (like 5%)  or a major difference (like 25%)?

[.....]

I think its a noticeable difference from what I've read. I do know that the cold effects my range more than it does the batteries. You know, I get cold, I go home = range suffers horribly. Following this for sure! Great question...

Edited October 9, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Darrell Wesh]

There was a thread about this before with interesting data. Cold effects battery significantly. If I remember correctly under 20F the battery range was almost cut in half. 

Edited October 15, 2020 by Darrell Wesh

[Tazarinho]

For me the same ride last winter at around 3° C and this summer at around 25°C gave about 20 km less range.
As in, last winter I had to take a bus for the last bit after 50 km, in the summer I could add a small loop and ended up doing 70 km, on a 16X, as a heavy guy.

I might have even ridden a bit faster the second time around.

[GoGeorgeGo]

11 hours ago, Tryptych said:

With winter coming on I am curious if anyone has ever tested how much power/range is lost when the temperature is below freezing. Does anyone know of a range test that was done in warm weather and then again in cold? 

Is it a minor difference (like 5%)  or a major difference (like 25%)?

Major difference, at least a 25% reduction. My first wheel was a ninebot c , in the summer i could about 8 miles on a charge, in the winter , maybe 5.

My V8 is a little bit better, i can do about 14 miles on it in the summer, maybe 10 in the winter. 

My buddys Ks18s does better, maybe because the larger battery holds temp better, but still a dramatic reduction as the temp decreases (i have less accurate of a guess for the ks18s as it is not my personal wheel) 

My buddys Nikola+ and my other frineds Monster are just coming into their first winter, we will see how the 100v wheels handles the cold now 

Edited October 9, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[winterwheel]

Don't leave your wheel outside in cold temps.

My ACM2 held its temp just fine down to about -20c if I go from indoor to indoor. Mileage may vary, especially with wheels with smaller batteries. On especially cold days I'd let it charge a bit immediately before heading out to preheat the batteries.

A lot of range reduction comes from higher rolling resistance of snowy surfaces.

 

[Ben Kim]

the sag is real in the cold, where i’d see 6V sag in the summer on hard acceleration id see close to 11V in the winter; that voltage doesn’t come back fully til the batteries warm up. Either take it slow and easy in winter or expect to get significantly less range (in the 20-25% category). 

The worst part is you can’t immediately charge it either because charging a freezing battery is a huge no-no. 

[Tryptych]

On 10/9/2020 at 1:09 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

Major difference, at least a 25% reduction

 

On 10/9/2020 at 1:51 PM, winterwheel said:

On especially cold days I'd let it charge a bit immediately before heading out to preheat the batteries.

 

10 hours ago, Ben Kim said:

The worst part is you can’t immediately charge it either because charging a freezing battery is a huge no-no. 

Good info, thanks guys. Maybe someday we'll see 'cold weather EUCs' with temperature controlled batteries.

 

Edited October 11, 2020 by Tryptych

[mhpr262]

23 hours ago, Tryptych said:

Good info, thanks guys. Maybe someday we'll see 'cold weather EUCs' with temperature controlled batteries.

Liquid cooled MOSFETs, and the waste heat keep the cells warm! I do recall a statement by Eloin Musk in which he said that the key to long battery life was to keep them  at moderate temps when discharging and charge them when they were pretty hot.

[null]

 

21 hours ago, mhpr262 said:

and charge them when they were pretty hot.

Speaking of which, do they get hotter from charging? ie: long range trip while cold, charge at restaurant.
Will a slower charge help warming them so you can up the charge later on?
Because an hour break won't be enough to warm the cells inside the housing just from ambient temp..

Edited October 13, 2020 by null

[mhpr262]

21 hours ago, null said:

 

Speaking of which, do they get hotter from charging?

With normal charging currents, no, they dont, or at least too little for it to matter. Modern cells dont have enough internal resistance for that.

[null]

33 minutes ago, mhpr262 said:

With normal charging currents, no, they dont, or at least too little for it to matter. Modern cells dont have enough internal resistance for that.

Thanks for the info, good to know.

While at it: anybody knows what "fast" is in this case?
0.5C isn't in "fast charge" territory at normal temps, but would it be too much for a battery of, say 5 degrees Celsius?
What would be a reasonable charging speed for "near freezing" temps?

[mhpr262]

I doubt anybody will come up with conclusive, reliable data. I have been interested in batteries and have been following their development for a long time because of my RC hobby and my interest in electric cars, and I dont remember ever having seen any data about that. But off the top of my head I wouldnt go beyond 0.5C under such circumstances.

[MBIKER_SURFER]

My experience was: On temperature lower than 10° C you will loose minimum 10% - on more lower temperature I experienced upto 25% lower mileage. Tested with a V10 F and a Nikole 84 V. But to be honest - I didn't bother. I was cold anyway .......

[winterwheel]

On 10/13/2020 at 10:44 AM, null said:

Thanks for the info, good to know.

While at it: anybody knows what "fast" is in this case?
0.5C isn't in "fast charge" territory at normal temps, but would it be too much for a battery of, say 5 degrees Celsius?
What would be a reasonable charging speed for "near freezing" temps?

mhpr is just making stuff up.

I just went out to the garage and plugged in the wheel.

After an hour the temp changed from 8c to 29c.

I've been winter-riding for three years, plugging the wheel in before I go riding is my normal process for super-cold days.

[mhpr262]

1 hour ago, winterwheel said:

mhpr is just making stuff up.

I just went out to the garage and plugged in the wheel.

After an hour the temp changed from 8c to 29c.

I've been winter-riding for three years, plugging the wheel in before I go riding is my normal process for super-cold days.

If your cells got that much hotter from charging they are most likely already damaged and have increased internal resistance. That is the only thing that would cause them to heat up so much.

Edited October 17, 2020 by mhpr262

[Murdomeek]

i went from 70km range in the summer (20 degrees c)

to 56kms now (12 degrees c) 

[Finn Bjerke]

When I get a cold I go to bed and read this forum a lot.- range is very limited I go for a leak now and then.... 

Edited October 18, 2020 by Finn Bjerke
fun

[mhpr262]

8 hours ago, Murdomeek said:

i went from 70km range in the summer (20 degrees c)

to 56kms now (12 degrees c) 

Thats about what I get on my V10F at the same temperature. I ride pretty slowly (15mph or under) and have my tire inflated pretty hard (close to 3 bar/43 psi) and that apparently compensates easily for my 130kg net weight. I went on a 24km trip today and had about 63% battery left per Inmotion app. That is probably too optimistic, but about 10-11km per 20% battery capacity is a realistic estimation. It ought to be even better than that in summer, with the temps above 20°C.

Edited October 18, 2020 by mhpr262

[winterwheel]

On 10/17/2020 at 11:25 AM, mhpr262 said:

If your cells got that much hotter from charging they are most likely already damaged and have increased internal resistance. That is the only thing that would cause them to heat up so much.

Same thing happens on every wheel, and I have many, nice try though.