Jump to content
dantaylr

Recovering after an S18 crash, would love some thoughts

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Planemo said:

Electrolytic capacitors dry out over time. How long this takes is dependent on time and use/heat. As the electrolyte gradually reduces the caps become less effective, until they eventually fail/explode. The caps on the MSX I saw hadn't exploded, but one was clearly swollen and it dumped the rider. The worst thing was that after getting back up, the wheel appeared fine and balanced perfectly on a slow (5mph) test ride so he got on it again and then it dumped him again at 15mph. 2 lots of injuries (and fairly nasty ones at that) in the space of 20 mins. The best thing you can do is keep an eye on them every 6 months or so for any signs of bulging/swelling/leakage/dark deposits. The MSX I saw had done around 6k miles (albeit hard riding), so I will either swop out the caps @ 4k and/or replace the board. That said I think @Mike Sacristan has about 12k miles on his MSX? Either way, caps drying out is definitely a 'thing' so it's a matter of when not if, even on a wheel that isn't used hard (maybe that says something about Mike lol).

The Nichicon brand caps used on the MSX are of a good quality, but ALL caps will fail eventually. See here for a little info on what dodgy caps look like:

https://www.robotroom.com/Faulty-Capacitors-1.html

 

I had never known about this thank you! Given that there IS a lifespan to these I'm surprised they don't have backups (is that possible?) Or a software timer that requires you replace the board regularly. For an electric bike this wouldn't be a big deal but these things are ground helicopters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

13500km on my MSX now.
I banged it around gently at a skate park yesterday. Dropped it a couple of times.
I usually end up hitting the beeps on it when riding (damn slow wheel).
My friend Sebastian has dropped his MSP and screwed the shell back together and reinforced it more times than I can count.
Crashed my 16X after 8400km and I get a hall sensor failure alarm on it now from time to time.

There are 50 riders in our group. None of them have had any problem with wheels suddenly dying because of nothing.
One rider over leaned his Ninebot Z10 at around 40kmh because he was accelerating like a donkey. The Z10 died and threw him off. Dead motherboard.

The other riders who have over leaned or crashed their wheels have still had perfectly functioning wheels afterwards.

The 18XL is a robust wheel. The 16X less so. The S18 even less so. The Z10 is somewhere around there too.
Then we have the baby wheels like the V8.

Simon weighs 84kg. Here he is overpowering the Mten3 84v 512Wh.
You can also see the difference in riding style between Simon and I. He goes all in and tests limits. I stay right below the limits.
He is 24 and I am 46. But still... look at how hard he is pushing that tiny thing.

I was riding his 16X yesterday and I noticed how careful I was when riding it. I did not dare bring it to the soft tilt-back or max speed. Although it did tell to me to please decelerate a few times. On the Nikola Plus I can just move as much as I like without feeling restricting or worrying about overpowering it. Simon pushes his 16X quite hard though and hasn't had any high speed accidents on it.

I would not use the S18 for high speed riding.
And I have been on the 16X with only one battery pack working and thus 20s3p.. it was fine. I just don't ride like a donkey and I don't dress for accidents.


 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Mike Sacristan That is some crazy cool custom body for mTen3. Have you got some topics with more info about it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, andress said:

@Mike Sacristan That is some crazy cool custom body for mTen3. Have you got some topics with more info about it?

Haha yeah it's pretty crazy. @iWheel of Sweden made it.

"This is The iWheel version of popular Gotway Mten. Made of Aluminium, much smaller and lighter than stock Mten. Your feet is only 1cm from touching tire. Makes it very responsible and very fun wheel. Fixed pedals makes it easy to jump on and off. Wheel is never fall, never stop."

Recently he has done some customisation on an S18 as well which is looking quite nice to say the least. I can't wait to try it!

image.png.5777ec1d5fb3bdfc6937f9af334455f3.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

sweet mten3 @Mike Sacristan  now i want one. 

on a side note, any video with some aphex gets a like. very euc appropriate. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, shellac said:

sweet mten3 @Mike Sacristan  now i want one. 

on a side note, any video with some aphex gets a like. very euc appropriate. 

Thanks bro! And cool that you recognised the song. I chose one of the less weird ones. Come to Daddy might have been too much especially the Little Lord Faulteroy Mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2020 at 1:53 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

Haha yeah it's pretty crazy. @iWheel of Sweden made it.

"This is The iWheel version of popular Gotway Mten. Made of Aluminium, much smaller and lighter than stock Mten. Your feet is only 1cm from touching tire. Makes it very responsible and very fun wheel. Fixed pedals makes it easy to jump on and off. Wheel is never fall, never stop."

Recently he has done some customisation on an S18 as well which is looking quite nice to say the least. I can't wait to try it!

image.png.5777ec1d5fb3bdfc6937f9af334455f3.png

 

There is specific balance between look nad functionality. There is certain trend in motor bikes for "naked" models, however this wheel is for sure "look" over functionality and safety.

-Lack of side / front panels means very possible destruction of the battery packs in case of any fall (they are nicely packed, but in very thin aluminum profiles,  dent may mean short circuit (fire) / destruction of the BMS). Also - in case of the fall the front edges of the main board cover may be destructed as now they are not protected - resulting in the broken battery connectors which are located on the front left and front right corners. This may main board failure 

-Lack of fender/mud guard means that in case of the rain, riding on wet tarmac rider will have whole back wet and dirty, also the  power cable routing had been modified - which changed the radius/way it bends - this may lead to quick wear of this cable - on hall sensor wires which are only 0,3 mm sq. and also on the power wires which are very stiff, and if bend on smaller radius - they will break soon. 

- S18 batery holder edges, and pedal base wedges are razor sharp - this is even bigger problem if there is no plastic panels which separate the rider from those edges - so in case of carrying the wheel up the stairs for example - it will cut your ankles/legs/trousers etc. 

But - if the look is most important and this wheel is an "form of art" with no need to ride it - sure - it will work great... 

Edited by Lukasz

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/8/2020 at 5:12 AM, Planemo said:

To be fair it depends on what the cap looked like. Maybe the OP can post a pic. Caps can age, swell and fail with zero other issues on the board. This then leads to a wheel which still appears to work perfectly but can cut out at whatever speed it feels like. My friends wheel did it at 15mph. Everything on the board looked perfect except one of the caps had a swollen end and appeared a little darker. It still balanced perfectly at a standstill before he swopped out the board.

I am wondering whether it's worth putting a fuse into my MSX. I am certainly reluctant to add any points of failure, but in the event of a catastrophic fault, I am mindful that the batts will keep pumping out power until a circuit is totally broken. By that time the wheel could be well alight :shock2:

All true. I was assuming that the caps on a brand new wheel and a brand new design, would be VERY FAR away from worry of age. Perhaps its assuming too much, that an euc company would use caps in their designs that arent already 10+ yrs old when installed to the board? I for one, wouldnt trust the s18 farther than I can throw it... I know, lets build a badass LOOKING wheel and market it for off road. Noone will notice that it self destructs when you dont ride it like a pu*sy. Sell it to someone who doesnt read the forums....B)

Edited by ShanesPlanet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 10/9/2020 at 8:20 AM, Planemo said:

Either way, caps drying out is definitely a 'thing' so it's a matter of when not if, even on a wheel that isn't used hard

I wouldn’t worry about caps drying of age on an EUC that generally has a lifespan of 2-4 years. Large electrolytic caps are used in high voltage and high heat tube guitar amps for decades before these pickiest of consumers (guitarists) even try to find minor changes in cap performance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/10/2020 at 6:13 PM, ShanesPlanet said:

All true. I was assuming that the caps on a brand new wheel and a brand new design, would be VERY FAR away from worry of age. Perhaps its assuming too much, that an euc company would use caps in their designs that arent already 10+ yrs old when installed to the board? I for one, wouldnt trust the s18 farther than I can throw it... I know, lets build a badass LOOKING wheel and market it for off road. Noone will notice that it self destructs when you dont ride it like a pu*sy. Sell it to someone who doesnt read the forums....B)

Well I will say it's comfy af. Like a slightly less gutsy magic carpet in the bumps and potholes of Seattle. I just don't want to be worried it's going to throw me on to the street when I least expect it. From what everyone's saying it sounds like that isn't likely. I would hope Kingsong would add more internal fail-safe measures inside these things in the future.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, mrelwood said:

 

I wouldn’t worry about caps drying of age on an EUC that generally has a lifespan of 2-4 years. Large electrolytic caps are used in high voltage and high heat tube guitar amps for decades before these pickiest of consumers (guitarists) even try to find minor changes in cap performance.

yumm... solid gear. Caps over a decade old and still chugging right along! I have a pair of gfx units from mid 90's still works. Only the screens and batteries have been altered.

Just ignore my negativity @dantaylr. Im just still a little sore about what happened to me. I need to reel it in a bit, as its doing no good to shit on everyone else because of my bias.  Most electronics either fail very young in life or very old in life. Its good odds that you wont see any other electrical issues for a long time, once you pass that burn in period. To be fair, most of the issues I hear about are mechaincal in nature. Ks has been putting out wheels for a while. One can assume that they are recycling the things they KNOW that works. This would include controllers and pcb layout ideas. Idont think any of the euc manufacturers are implemeting much fail safe into these designs. I think the cost is too high or the compromise to get redundancy, isnt in the cards just yet. There is a thread around here that brings that point up and its a very valid point.

lachapell.jpg

Edited by ShanesPlanet

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said:

yumm... solid gear. Caps over a decade old and still chugging right along! I have a pair of gfx units from mid 90's still works. Only the screens and batteries have been altered.

Just ignore my negativity @dantaylr. Im just still a little sore about what happened to me. I need to reel it in a bit, as its doing no good to shit on everyone else because of my bias.  Most electronics either fail very young in life or very old in life. Its good odds that you wont see any other electrical issues for a long time, once you pass that burn in period. To be fair, most of the issues I hear about are mechaincal in nature. Ks has been putting out wheels for a while. One can assume that they are recycling the things they KNOW that works. This would include controllers and pcb layout ideas. Idont think any of the euc manufacturers are implemeting much fail safe into these designs. I think the cost is too high or the compromise to get redundancy, isnt in the cards just yet. There is a thread around here that brings that point up and its a very valid point.

lachapell.jpg

I get you. Did you end up getting bit by a KS?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, dantaylr said:

I get you. Did you end up getting bit by a KS?

Merely an opinion, but I think so. I wont go into details as again, my bias is unfair. I pm'ed you with more info, but its also of bias. All in all, many will enjoy the wheel and I do regret if I have pissed in anyones cheerios. If you have an s18 and are happy, thats all that matters and I can pretty much go f**k myself ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

After reading this, I might setting up speed lower to 45kmh, I usually rode mine to 47-49kmh until tilt back stops me leaning forward or the beeps reminds me. I love S18, love how it runs, jumps, and taking those turns fast, never afraid of curbs & potholes because I have trust with the suspension, tyre seems gripping the roads real strong, I even sped up when I saw bumps ahead..and now you guys reminds me again about cut out..😅🙏👍

I do feel the power shortage when hard accelerating , breaking and climbing, just hoping KS will make an upgrade, its just too bad for this kind of offroad wheel without sufficient torque.

btw..love that naked S18 

Edited by Beachboy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 10/11/2020 at 5:57 PM, mrelwood said:

Large electrolytic caps are used in high voltage and high heat tube guitar amps for decades

I have to admire your optimism in that you are expecting the caps in a Chinese EUC to be specced for their intended use as highly as those found within a decent guitar amp.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, Planemo said:

I have to admire your optimism in that you are expecting the caps in a Chinese EUC to be specced for their intended use as highly as those found within a decent guitar amp.

I said nothing about “decent”. The same applies for the cheapest Chinese amps as well. 
 

The temperature of the board is a common measure, and we never see values higher than the spec’d 105•C of the caps (unlike in guitar amps). And the voltage rating of the caps is 100V on a 84V wheel. I can’t think of further specs that could be mismatched for the EUC capacitors.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I said nothing about “decent”. The same applies for the cheapest Chinese amps as well. 
 

The temperature of the board is a common measure, and we never see values higher than the spec’d 105•C of the caps (unlike in guitar amps). And the voltage rating of the caps is 100V on a 84V wheel. I can’t think of further specs that could be mismatched for the EUC capacitors.

I'm not going to argue the toss back and forth anymore. The fact is that not one but two caps on the failed MSX board were swollen. For sure, the worst of the two caused the rider to eat dirt.

And the FET's go waaay higher than the average 39 deg C reported on the board. Do the caps? Have you ever IR temped them whilst they under duress? It doesn't really matter anyway because ANY cap will eventually dry out given enough time and heat.

I will keep checking my caps, everyone else can put their faith in Gotway EUC workmanship and design. I really don't give a monkeys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

ANY cap will eventually dry out given enough time and heat.

That is absolutely true. And some of them are bad straight from the factory. 

1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I will keep checking my caps

Not a bad idea at all. I just don’t think we’re closing in on the end of the natural lifetime of the caps.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
50 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

 

That is absolutely true. And some of them are bad straight from the factory. 

Not a bad idea at all. I just don’t think we’re closing in on the end of the natural lifetime of the caps.

I cant believe we have to worry about this. I mean shit, quality Nichi caps arent but a few pennies more than bullshit crap. Damnit China, break the mold and spend a few pennies when you must! It must be a foreign idea for some of these companies to buy anything but the cheapest shit they can. Someone tell them that they can stay competitive while being a few dollars more expensive to recover the cost of not using total shit. I'd bet if these companies had to REALLY stand behind their products, they wouldnt act like this.  There arent very many parts in an euc. Surely quality electronics wouldnt add that much to the build expense?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

I cant believe we have to worry about this.

That wasn’t my intended message at all. I don’t think we need to worry about the capacitors any more than we have before. For me it’s checking that the caps are attached and soldered properly on a new GW, that’s all.

 I don’t remember a single EUC issue where durability or failure of the caps has been the cause. All it would result is a very soft riding “mode“. If the caps get physically damaged (this thread) or fry with the mosfets, a better quality cap most probably wouldn’t have made any difference. And even if it would’ve, the rest of the board is toast anyway. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...