Will Kingsong s18 be worth buying in 2022 or later?

[Finn Bjerke]

I love my V11 and Im thrilled I did not buy  Kingsong S18, to many bloody errors - the whole construction needs endless repairs.  I read posts from clever engineers who dismantles the wheel in order to make it work. The suspensions system have structural flaws and very often the factory workers  have done a shitty job.  I also hear that the wonderfull Kingsong 16x had many errors to begin with  maybe its just general slobbiness?

When will the era of S18 prototypes stop - Whne wioll it be possible to get KS s18 wheels that actually works for off roading and fun?  

Oh I know that some of you are happy with your s18 congrats with that - Im not attacking and I will answer any of the usual macho-childish attacks on me. This thread is not about persons its about a product.  Too many errors Kingsong get a grip.  Dont send prototypes on the marked ... Also If I bloody well want to import a wheel from Alibaba to EU or US its none of your bloody business, my wheel is my propterty. 


This link explains why/how S18 is an inferior product:  "S18 Suspension Overhaul"   also the film: 

 

[FinRider]

4 hours ago, Finn Bjerke said:

I love my V11 and Im thrilled I did not buy  Kingsong S18, to many bloody errors - the whole construction needs endless repairs.  I read posts from clever engineers who dismantles the wheel in order to make it work. The suspensions system have structural flaws and very often the factory workers  have done a shitty job.  I also hear that the wonderfull Kingsong 16x had many errors to begin with  maybe its just general slobbiness?

When will the era of S18 prototypes stop - Whne wioll it be possible to get KS s18 wheels that actually works for off roading and fun?  

Oh I know that some of you are happy with your s18 congrats with that - Im not attacking and I will answer any of the usual macho-childish attacks on me. This thread is not about persons its about a product.  Too many errors Kingsong get a grip.  Dont send prototypes on the marked ... Also If I bloody well want to import a wheel from Alibaba to EU or US its none of your bloody business, my wheel is my propterty. 


This link explains why/how S18 is an inferior product:  "S18 Suspension Overhaul"   also the film: 

This thread and post is inappropriate on so many levels, I honestly don’t see the link between your topic and your post.

your topic is fine, and it is a valid question. However, making a ”flame post” based on 2nd hand information and then hedging yourself expecting ”macho-childish” attacks? Not cool.

I may disapprove of your approach, but lets stay on topic so that we can actually get a constructive discussion going, with facts instead of anecdotes.

There were indeed flaws in the execution of the assembly of the S18. Calling it ”structural flaws” is inaccurate and misleading. My wheel is a prime example. The suspension had serious binding issues, which I completely resolved by removing the block between the pedal hangers and by adding washers to the suspension linkage where they join together. Oh, and adding lube to the slider bars. The whole process to ”fix” my wheel may have taken several days, but that is because mine is from the pre-order 1st batch wheels and not much information was available at that time. If I were to get the wheel today, then the mods would take probably all of 15 minutes and the only tools needed would be 2 size 5 allen wrenches and a jar of lube.

And as far as pulling in the Locksong argument in this thread is also not in line with your topic question, as KS has made it abundantly clear that this is their policy and they have no intention to change this approach. You may not agree with their policy, but look at it from another perspective and it can be interpreted as Locksong trying to help you (and the ali seller) not to commit tax evasion. On the other hand, guys like me who bought the wheel through the proper channels have already received the opportunity to send our wheels in for repair by the dealer.

So to answer your question: Yes, the KS S18 will be worth buying by 2022, it is actually worth buying from a dealer today already, from one who will support you and work with you on getting a great wheel with working suspension.

[.....]

24 minutes ago, FinRider said:

So to answer your question: Yes, the KS S18 will be worth buying by 2022, it is actually worth buying from a dealer today already, from one who will support you and work with you on getting a great wheel with working suspension.

I agree with thge vast mojority of your post. The only part I find a difference of opinion is this last part. Its entirely opinion from both of us, but i felt the s18 was NOT worth buying today. I dont know about next year, but the wheel I received, was not as advertised. I'm sorry, but I dont consider a product that has a recall and needs sent back to factory or has to undergo repair prior to use, worth a buy.  Maybe it's ALMOST worth the buy, but most product come ready to use or at least closer than this. If it had been advertised as a project or kit wheel and priced acoordingly, it would be diferent. The simple fact that it takes tools and chemicals that are not included, to 'fix' a brand new wheel, means its a fail.  Most consumers are not interested in being part of the R&D team. Now if locksong wanted to send me a wheel for a studpi low price and let me know it was a 'project' wheel, I would feel differently. Wtf is the person to do, that IS NOT mechanically inclined, does not have internet resources to chase down info, and has a tool box with a rusty flat blade and some cheap pliers? Oh yeah, send it back to be reworked. Once it's reworked, its NOT what kingsong sold, its a customized model.

[phatmike]

2 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:The simple fact that it takes tools and chemicals that are not included, to 'fix' a brand new wheel, means its a fail. 

I totally agree!

[GoGeorgeGo]

Honestly, production errors aside.  I still think its not "worth" buying an S18 until they beef up the battery or tone down the motor.  You can "easily" fix the linkage problems, there is no solution to the small battery issue unless you make your own battery like that one guy modded up.

I do however think the S18 suspension system is here to stay and expect to see 100% offroad and trick style wheels developed with that linkage system.  

So when will the s18 be "worth it". IMO probably never for the average consumer.  When will the kingsong suspension system be worth it? Very soon, i will be flabergasted if they do not release new wheels with this same linkage system.  They can make one with the same guts and battery but smaller motor, make one with a bigger battery, make one with a carbon fiber shell for tricks, make one with a metal housing for extreme BMX. The possibilities are endless, Kingsong has the opportunity to CORNER the offroad market, they should sieze it

Edited October 5, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[Finn Bjerke]

14 hours ago, FinRider said:

"lets stay on topic so that we can actually get a constructive discussion going, with facts instead of anecdotes. There were indeed flaws in the execution of the assembly of the S18. Calling it ”structural flaws” is inaccurate and misleading."

Finrider there are NO ANECDOTES in what im writing about. Its factual. Have a close look at this pix its so extremly factual that it almost painfull to watch: 


So get down from your high horse and debate like a civilised person.  Focus on the topics, I know you can do it. 

Quote

 I honestly don’t see the link between your topic and your post.

Try rereading all the posts I link too and watch the film twice, then please be good enough  debate the topic and try so avoid "besserwissen" (german concept, ptrob well known in Finland too)  KS S18  OCtober 2020 is a prototype.  When will it be a serious product?  this year? Next year?  

Edited October 5, 2020 by Finn Bjerke
better point

[Finn Bjerke]

Quote

When will the kingsong suspension system be worth it? Very soon, i will be flabergasted if they do not release new wheels with this same linkage system.

Now that is interesting answer to my Q.  Thx 4 that mate. 
Maybe we need a small superagressive Off road wheel and a bigger road wheel for travelling to the tracks....? A 2 wheel solution .....  The problem is you need to carry the Off road wheel somehow.....  A HUGE backsack ?? 
hmm let a drone do it ?  

Quote

GoGeorgeGo
I do however think the S18 suspension system is here to stay and expect to see 100% offroad and trick style wheels developed with that linkage system.  

Thx foer sharing that optimism mate... If it gets better Ill def buy it........ But Im bloody well not going to be betatester for Locksong.   This a very factual and not OK 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Finn Bjerke
better more

[yon]

I brought a  new ford van through my business five years ago. in the first year there were two re calls on it.  Four years later ie last year I replaced it for another new ford.  The recalls did not bother me. The van is the best I ever had I love it,  I still loved it when it was in being fixed.  Perhaps the van should have not left the factory with these recall issues but hey ho that's life.  Kingsong are not Ford and factory  production faults do happen, The manufacturer has acknowledged it and rectifying the problem.  Jobs a good un as is said in these parts.

[Midlife Cricycle]

Like Yon says, there will always be faults, especially early in the life cycle of a new product, and especially when innovations are thrown in. Look at literally every single new wheel to come out this year. All have had their issues: the Sherman had some QC issues with a display that peels off, the V11 had motor issues and design flaws with the suspension cap, the EX (based on Vee's just-released first review) looks to have all manner of teething problems. The S18 is no different. It's suspension system needed an overhaul, in addition to some other minor problems. The main thing is that these companies acknowledge the problems and fix them, both for current customers and future ones. KS are doing that, so maybe give them some credit rather than piling on when they are not alone in putting out imperfect wheels. It feels a little like you are trying to make yourself feel better for switching to the V11 by bashing the S18. For the record, I've ordered both and am confident I will be very, very happy when they (finally!) arrive. 

[Mac]

Hi Finn, I posted most of this in another part of the forum. I just have to reiterate the fact that the design and engineering of the S-18 is an incredible well thought out machine. From what I can see it is way ahead of InMotion and Gotway. 

The V11 is probably a great road machine, but I would be very carful with it off-road. Yet as a road machine it’s lack of battery and power doesn’t come close to the current (non suspended) offerings. I don’t own a V11, and I like you can only analyze what I see and read about it. 

I haven’t found anything structurally wrong with the S-18, and believe me it’s taken a beating as I put it through it’s paces off-road. 

In my never to be humble opinion the future off-road machines will look more like the mono shock Moto-X bikes that left the dual shock suspension behind over 40 years ago. Yes you can still purchase Harley-Davidson, you can even purchase a hardtail. Moto-X bikes have small tanks keeping them light. I’m not sure giving the S-18 a larger battery would be to my liking. It’s nimble and adding more weight would just make a great machine less instead of more. 

The S-18 is the first of it’s kind, wasn’t the first suspended EUC on the market but it is miles ahead of the competition. 

The design and manufacturing of the S-18 is excellent. 

I don’t know where the build started to fall apart, probably purchasing but it was assembled and QC’d by idiots. 

They used barrel bolts that were too long allowing bearings to spin freely on the bolts instead of locking in. Mated bearings didn’t have shim spacers. Instead of using the proper mounting spacers they used lock washers impinging the bearing cages making the bearing useless. Those lock washers stopped the bearings from functioning making the bolt turn in the frame. The outer shell connecting rods were painted with out regard to the bearing placement. When the bearing are pressed into their mounts, the paint reduced the size of the mounting hole causing some of the outer races to bind or break when they were installed causing friction in the bearings.

KingSong and my dealer (at least in my experience), have stood solidly behind all of these repairs.

I’ve spent quit a bit of time making my suspension what is should have been to begin with.

I would absolutely purchase it again even knowing what it takes to make it work as designed. 

I love this wheel it’s amazing on the trails where I spend most of my time. I go places now that I wouldn’t have even considered before.

[Finn Bjerke]

Quote

The design and manufacturing of the S-18 is excellent. 

I don’t know where the build started to fall apart, probably purchasing but it was assembled and QC’d by idiots. 

They used barrel bolts that were too long allowing bearings to spin freely on the bolts instead of locking in. Mated bearings didn’t have shim spacers. Instead of using the proper mounting spacers they used lock washers impinging the bearing cages making the bearing useless. Those lock washers stopped the bearings from functioning making the bolt turn in the frame. The outer shell connecting rods were painted with out regard to the bearing placement. When the bearing are pressed into their mounts, the paint reduced the size of the mounting hole causing some of the outer races to bind or break when they were installed causing friction in the bearings.

Spot on mate.  What makes this forum great is people like you, the "engineer types" who knows the  devil is in the detail.  KS S18 was assembled and QC’d by idiots. The other suspension wheels not so (bad after all) 

Fucking up good design is a  tragedy. (My wife said so before she left but thats another matter) We dont bloody want unbearable bearings and suspended suspension. Also Kingsong have fucked up good design before. KS 16x was terrible to begin with, now its one of the best wheels of that generation. Also the prettiest (If you dont care about looks dont bloody tell your wife, I digress) So when will KS S18 be imrpoved so I wont need to fix it?  Im not a techie but I learn a lot from you guys on the forum not from Kingsong technocrats. 

I want a plug and play suspension wheel Kingsong, when will you deliver?  Inmotion V11 have (a few) errors, Gotway suspension is a laff.  When will Kingsong deliver the best off road beast with suspension on the marked ?  When can I justify to have 2 suspension wheels? 

Inmotion V11 off roading? Its a great wheel ppl, its really worth every penny. Its the best all round wheel on the marked I guess.  But I have not tested the KS S18, to me the error lists is too bloody long. Here are a film of the communist idiots at the assembly line: Maybe they are decent humanoids just like you and me? (but not your wife off course)

 

 

PS (for my Swedish friends) all comments regarding spouses are based on silly Danish sarcasm, its not for you - Im so sorry. 

[Finn Bjerke]

In the future I guess most folks will have
1. a long range road machine (with suspension off course?) and
2. an aggressive little beast for trail riding (with suspension off course?) and 
3. the Mten3 for just having fun and even indoor riding.

also most folks will have a broken bank account after buying Inmotion V12, Kingsong S20 and Mten3

Edited October 24, 2020 by Finn Bjerke
better

[EUCMe]

I have about 2,200 miles on my 16x and its by far my favorite wheel. Its been flawless and trouble free since day one. Been looking at the s18 however version ones flaws are off the charts bad and I think I'll wait till V2 pops next summer and let them work the bugs out. Besides buying the first year model of anything is never a good idea. Too bad the V11 is so god damn ugly IMO. Maybe it will have some design upgrades in the future.

Edited November 22, 2020 by EUCMe

[Mrd777]

We know Kingsong has made small changes on each batch that has shipped on the s18, however it’s hard to keep track on the changes as they are lost in the lengthy thread. It would be helpful if we had a chart or list as a sticky on where we are on the improvements.

[.....]

9 minutes ago, Mrd777 said:

We know Kingsong has made small changes on each batch that has shipped on the s18, however it’s hard to keep track on the changes as they are lost in the lengthy thread. It would be helpful if we had a chart or list as a sticky on where we are on the improvements.

excellent idea! We eagerly await you combing thru the pages, contacting kingsong and compiling that for us. Be prepared for a lengthy task that is frought with inaccuracies and misinformation...

@Mac  "The design and manufacturing of the S-18 is excellent."   Wow, is this a sarcastic remark or are your standards for manufacturing and build, that low?

Edited November 22, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Mac]

4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

excellent idea! We eagerly await you combing thru the pages, contacting kingsong and compiling that for us. Be prepared for a lengthy task that is frought with inaccuracies and misinformation...

@Mac  "The design and manufacturing of the S-18 is excellent."   Wow, is this a sarcastic remark or are your standards for manufacturing and build, that low?

Hi Shane, do you own an S-18? Have you ridden an S-18? Have you seen one up close? I’m an engineer I work with complex design. To compare any of the previously manufactured EUC’s, to the S-18 points to the fact that you don’t understand R&D. From a design standpoint the S-18 is in a class heads above anything brought to market to date. The manufacturing is truly world class work. 
Having said that the problems KS is having with the wheel is probably rushed purchasing, with traces of the marketing teams demands. 
The original shock arms were silver. When they decided to paint them it reduced the target size of the bearing seats.(Marketing)

Using lock washers instead of the proper shims.(Purchasing)

Not having the correct size barrel bolts.(Purchasing)  

Assembly by a third world uneducated assembly line completed the disaster. 

As an owner of a second batch wheel I stand by my evaluation of the design and manufacture of the S-18.
Are there thing I’d change of course.

Would I encourage the purchase of an S-18 to someone unable to take up the slack? No, we’ll have to see what the next batch looks like. But if you have the skill set to correct the problems with its early iterations, you will have a machine unrivaled by the other contenders. 

[.....]

17 minutes ago, Mac said:

Hi Shane, do you own an S-18? Have you ridden an S-18? Have you seen one up close? I’m an engineer I work with complex design. To compare any of the previously manufactured EUC’s, to the S-18 points to the fact that you don’t understand R&D.

Not anymore, yes and yes. Fairly presumptuous of you. We will have to agree to disagree.

Edited November 22, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Mac]

7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said:

Not anymore, yes and yes. Fairly presumptuous of you. We will have to agree to disagree.

Hmm, it’s presumptuous to assume that you don’t understand R&D, and manufacturing?
What’s you’re take on the design of the S-18? 

Where did manufacturing of the parts compromise the S-18?

I alluded to the fact that it’s market has been compromised by the assembly, poor purchasing, and the offset of its original design by painting the shock arms.

 

[.....]

 Let's just say that it started to go wrong, as soon as they took the idea from their heads and began to put it into reality. The design idea is/was stellar, but thats where it ended. I watched the live release and followed it for months until I got one in my hands. The glaring issues were too many to count and I sold is VERY quickly at a loss. Battery was too small, motor had little torque, pads were hard as rocks, suspension wouldnt travel, parts missing, plastic breaking, unfinished sharp edges, clearance issues, sharp low box corners, cheap hardware, inaccessible valves, adhesives failing, parts rusting... the list goes on and on. I normally wouldnt be as angry as I was, but I had VERY high hopes, as I recognize a good idea when I see one.  They made a wheel that SHOULD have been destined for greatness off road, and crippled its ability at nearly every turn.  What is it, a wimpy off road euc, or an unrefined street wheel?

THEN they relased a wheel before it was even near ready. They subjected the people who paid for the product, to become part of the R&D team. I'm not interested in being a free laborer for the communist party and it feels like that's exactly what they are expecting from the buyer.  My favorite wheel is a locksong wheel, so it was really a slap to the face to wait so long and get a partially finished s18. The s18 has/had promise, but the sheer ammount of details that went overlooked, is madness.  A mono shock suspension is not the newest technology and its apalling that they did such a poor job with something that is in use on many vehicles for decades. Maybe Locksong could have turned this wheel idea into a great thing, but it was surely rushed to market and even in the last minute they had to remold parts as the original materials werent even close to strong enough.

I really hope they figure it out, as the concept is golden. However, I wont hold my breathe, as there's a lot of details they need to iron out, and we all see how strict the assembly process IS NOT. A complex design with moving parts, really does need the factory to step up their game and respect tolerances. Honestly, I am not sure KS is capable of what it will take. Blatantly stating that the 'design and manufacture of the s-18 is excellent', seems to be a little inaccurate to me.

I'm glad you like your wheel and Im glad I got a chance to try the s18 and managed to NOT still have it in my posession. Consider yourself lucky that yours is working well, and enjoy it! Me, I'll stick with allowing other people to roll the dice on it. I need a wheel I can trust. I need that trust above and beyond how much I need a little bit of suspension. I'll keep watching to see how it turns out, and who knows, maybe someone will 'borrow' from the design idea and execute it properly. For now tho, the newest locksong offering has fallen off my radar for potential purchases.

I have a very short and uninformative vid of when I had my s18. I was deflated about it at the time and didnt bother going on and on about WHY I decided to sell it. I was clearly not happy with a new purchase and shouldnt we be ecstatic when we spend $2000 on a new toy? Shitting on people's new toys isnt a favorable thing, so I'm sure my opinion pisses people off. Combined with the fact that I'm abrasive and like to bitch.... Anyhow, take what I say with a grain of salt. It is of note that this wheel has 100's of pages about it in its own thread, and a LOT of them are not blustering with confidence and awe at the creation.

Edited November 22, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Mac]

Yup I get it, we’re on the same page. 

[Circuitmage]

Both the new wheel's I purchased from KS, my 16S and 18L had problems right out of the box.

My 16S had to have it's controller board replaced after weeks of it going crazy out of control when I was coming to a stop.

My 18L did not seem to work until 2 or 3 FW updates after more than 6 months, PLUS disabling the lift sensors (which still does not work right). 

So yes, early adopters can see problems. But as long as they are fixed to the customer's satisfaction, which KS seems supportive of doing, I am happy. Working these issues out with a company on the other side of the globe does take weeks, or months.

Also, I might point out that things can go the opposite direction in manufacturing...things could get worse or inferior after production. I once worked for a military sub contractor that manufactured electronics box assemblies using some very nice $5 gold plated connectors where bushings wrapped around the contact pins. When they ramped up volume, some project manager decided to replace those connectors with cheaper $1 tin connectors that did not have wrap around contacts. Keep in mind that these boxes went through EXTENSIVE temperature and vibration testing. Needless to say, after the ramp up we were sending the SAME boxes through 2 or 3 cycles of retesting, primarily due to the cheaper contacts getting loose. Very scary stuff. I'm sure , even after they left the production line, most of them failed.

Sometimes companies take out features on later models that were part of the initial production. They do this on gaming consoles, cars, motorcycles, airplanes....

I tend to agree that someone seems a little angry here and is using this forum to vent their frustrations. 

 

[sbouju]

On 10/5/2020 at 2:56 AM, Finn Bjerke said:

When will the era of S18 prototypes stop...?

Keep me informed, as this (working) model would remain exactly what I need !

Edited December 7, 2020 by sbouju

[sbouju]

Good news from Russia ?

https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&u=https://ecodrift.ru/2020/12/09/kingsong-s18-prednovogodnij-podarok/

[Yellowjacket]

On 10/6/2020 at 10:13 AM, yon said:

"… hey ho that's life… factory  production faults do happen, The manufacturer has acknowledged it and rectifying the problem.  Jobs a good un as is said in these parts."

No, King Song has not acknowledged the most serious problems and continues to export machines with shoddy build.

Ford abandoned the tag line, ''Quality is job one'' in 1998. Boeing should probably retire "safety our top priority!"

King Song should build fewer defects into the S18.

[Yellowjacket]

On 11/24/2020 at 11:47 AM, Circuitmage said:

"…My 16S had to have it's controller board replaced after weeks of it going crazy out of control when I was coming to a stop. My 18L did not seem to work until 2 or 3 FW updates after more than 6 months, PLUS disabling the lift sensors (which still does not work right)…Working these issues out with a company on the other side of the globe does take weeks, or months…

 

My god, man, and you bought another one!?

It appears that King Song sent preproduction wheels that were of superior build quality to bloggers, UTubers, other content creators.  Wheels being sent to customers, at least in the U.S., have had major issues, and it does not appear that King Song is responding.

For more information, see  https://forum.electricunicycle.org/