Why are wheels only manufactured in China?

[mike_bike_kite]

I know the argument would be that they can be manufactured cheaply there but, looking at current prices for wheels, that doesn't seem to be the case. It doesn't seem to be difficult to produce wheels - the wheels, motors, fittings and batteries come off the shelf while the control board and firmware might require a little work, it isn't exactly rocket science. Is it because there's a larger market in China and relatively no market elsewhere or is it just the legal issues with riding EUC's in many parts of the world?

[houseofjob]

2 hours ago, mike_bike_kite said:

I know the argument would be that they can be manufactured cheaply there but, looking at current prices for wheels, that doesn't seem to be the case. It doesn't seem to be difficult to produce wheels - the wheels, motors, fittings and batteries come off the shelf while the control board and firmware might require a little work, it isn't exactly rocket science. Is it because there's a larger market in China and relatively no market elsewhere or is it just the legal issues with riding EUC's in many parts of the world?

It's all you mention above (piggybacking on the ebike parts suppliers, which China is second to none), plus more importantly...

.... not sure about the intellectual property laws in other western states, but for here in the US, it's due to patent trolling, namely from the biggest patent troll of them all, Shane Chen of Inventist/Solowheel fame. Not sure if the Segway/Ninebot vs Shane Chen/Inventist/Solowheel dueling lawsuits are still going on, but basically any EUC company who sets up shop in the US will be lawsuit'ed out of the water by at least Chen and his army of lawyers, Microsoft-style. This has been well covered on the forums.

Edited September 30, 2020 by houseofjob

[redsnapper]

Given all major brands are currently made/assembled in China, safe to assume that would be significantly more expensive if same was done in G20 country. This is true for the majority of exports from China and why China has huge trade imbalances with most western nations. Whether this is good or bad is a whole other discussion which quickly veers into economic theory and politics. As it is, machines are certainly quite expensive and why I always buy used ( with all the attending implied risks )...

[meepmeepmayer]

The Chinese started with Solowheel copies and moved on from there. That opportunity didn't exist for Western companies.

Also I guess they have the best infrastructure for making electronics in the Shenzen area - wages, ease/availability of supply and workers and investors, know-how, no enforcement of potential traffic laws (who wants to make stuff that isn't even allowed in the country it's made in if restrictions are actually enforced?), maybe a more entrepreneurial mentality and more entrepreneurial freedom (given more leeway and not being bothered by bueraucrats), etc.

Also the lower standards in terms of quality of design/build make a lower barrier of entry. Today's wheels are like the 7th (or whatever) generation, but still below what Western standards would be (if you look at the laughably thin motor cables, for example).

TLDR: Because it was the easiest for them to get started and evolve from there.

Edited September 30, 2020 by meepmeepmayer

[Murdomeek]

The wheels are very fairly priced if you think about it.

They are super niche product/low volume compared to ebikes

Find a escooter or eskateboard with similar speed/power/battery specs and they will all cost similar or MORE money.  (And ebike too I believe)

 

High end EUC is around $3000.

High end mountain bike is $4-7k

High end road bike is $5-10k.

And these bikes done even have motor/battery/electronics in them at all.

 

If you had a "made in USA" wheel, it would for sure cost 2-4x as much.  This is the reason almost all consumer electronics is made in china.  Because all the "made in usa" companies got priced out of the market.  And consumers voted with their wallets

Edited September 30, 2020 by Murdomeek

[LanghamP]

I would think the price of EUC would drop dramatically once a US battery manufacturer decides to build EUCs. Tesla (the auto and battery manufacturer) could build EUCs very cheaply indeed.

[AtlasP]

On 9/30/2020 at 6:52 AM, houseofjob said:

Microsoft-style

This socio-political tech-sector analogy is about a decade out of date; Microsoft (particularly under Satya Nadella & Panos Panay) is widely considered one of the relative 'good guys' in the industry these days especially in comparison to much more egregious players (Google/Apple/Facebook/Amazon/etc.)  /tangent

Edited January 7, 2021 by AtlasP

[houseofjob]

47 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

This socio-political tech-sector analogy is about a decade out of date; Microsoft (particularly under Satya Nadella & Panos Panay) is generally considered one of the relative 'good guys' in the industry these days especially in comparison to much more egregious players (Google/Apple/Facebook/Amazon/etc.)  /tangent

I never referenced any date on my quote. Pretty much a fact that Microsoft has survived that decade partly via patent trolling, so I dunno how my reference isn't valid, unless you're saying they've never patent trolled.

[Tree Zeus Jakcsy]

The patent war is probably the biggest reason.  Inventist has sued over 20 companies, then got counter-sued by Ninebot/Segway.  The outcome is fuzzy, but Solowheel hasn't made any new models in over 6 years unless you count their partnership with Inmotion, and Ninebot also stopped making them, implying they both own patents.  I expect when those patents expire in 8-12 years there big boys like motorcycle and auto manufacturers will get involved.  Until then, we all have to import directly from China (or buy a Solowheel or IOTAtrax).  That's why Amazon doesn't sell most EUCs.

https://www.greyb.com/hoverboard-patent-lnvalidation/

[ScottVal]

On 9/30/2020 at 9:52 PM, houseofjob said:

It's all you mention above (piggybacking on the ebike parts suppliers, which China is second to none), plus more importantly...

.... not sure about the intellectual property laws in other western states, but for here in the US, it's due to patent trolling, namely from the biggest patent troll of them all, Shane Chen of Inventist/Solowheel fame. Not sure if the Segway/Ninebot vs Shane Chen/Inventist/Solowheel dueling lawsuits are still going on, but basically any EUC company who sets up shop in the US will be lawsuit'ed out of the water by at least Chen and his army of lawyers, Microsoft-style. This has been well covered on the forums.

And that's why Chen is a parasite!

[CarlW]

If a US manufacturer sold the critical parts and know how to assemble DIY wheels would they still be at risk from lawsuits?  I would enjoy the challenge of trying to build my own EUC if there was a rock solid control board with perhaps some sort of built in redundancy for improved safety.  Compared to building CNC routers, EUCs don't look that difficult to build, and there are tons of people building their own CNCs these days.

[Scottie888]

1 hour ago, ScottVal said:

And that's why Chen is a parasite!

Or an argument can be make that he's a sharp businessman. No different than some that have jumped ahead of the curve in owning the correct domain name. If one is serious, I assume its possible to negotiate an equitable outcome. Afterall, I assume he's also in this for the money. No licensing no money so again, I assume he's going to be a very interested party to this.

46 minutes ago, CarlW said:

If a US manufacturer sold the critical parts and know how to assemble DIY wheels would they still be at risk from lawsuits?  I would enjoy the challenge of trying to build my own EUC if there was a rock solid control board with perhaps some sort of built in redundancy for improved safety.  Compared to building CNC routers, EUCs don't look that difficult to build, and there are tons of people building their own CNCs these days.

It would depend on what parts & if said parts have patents. However one might circumvent those by producing or oem those parts from a certain country with no patent issues. I would assume most of the other components are very much off the shelf items.

That said, besides patent liability, a US (or western) mfgr would also be subject to personal usage liabilities. What if a product failed? What if the user is hurt? So many what ifs can easily lawsuit a small business out of existence. Esp in US's highly litigious culture 😉

I am assuming all this ofcos. At least until someone tries in practise

[Magpie EUC]

I think its because there about 5 people in the western world who know how to use a soldering iron, in China everybody's grandmother knows how to solder a circuit board together.

[.....]

44 minutes ago, Magpie EUC said:

I think its because there about 5 people in the western world who know how to use a soldering iron, in China everybody's grandmother knows how to solder a circuit board together.

Make that FOUR. I know how to solder but aint doing it for anyone but myself. So... may as well say I can't.

I think the real reason usa isnt making them is.. money.  Liablity is a real word here in USA, unlike China. We have consumer law and a penchant to sue everyone that isnt to blame, for something we have done. To make an euc solid, somewhat safe and adhere to warranty law and liability, would cost a MINT in the USA. The tech in modern euc's isnt terrible, but its just barely the beginning of what it would take to become a REAL roadworthy vehicle by USA standards. We dont ride goat carts down the streets pulled by pieces of 6 scooters here in the USA. Our street and highways speeds arent a joke. To be a player in any kind of transportation in USA, you gtta have big pockets and make a product that is tested and subject to recall and safety law. THEN of course there patent law. Even if a usa company DID come up with a lot of answers, they would get sued AND their idea stolen, both and by seperate entities.

Edited June 17, 2021 by ShanesPlanet

[houseofjob]

Guys, there's essentially no other answer to this question but the below troll, plain and simple:

[Scubadragonsan]

US is not serious about the green movement as China does. Labor cost is high in US. Lack of government endorsements/support. Not enough wheel enthusiasts. Politicians have not brought the manufacturing jobs back. Lack of competitiveness against China. Lazy US bureaucrats not considering wheels are significant..... Way too many obstacles to overcome...

[GothamMike]

You are all correct, or partly correct. China does not appear to have strong product liability laws. Given the general riskiness of EUCs, and the flimsiness of some of the devices, no American manufacturer, or liability insurance firm, will take that risk.

In the US, EU, and Japan, firms must tell investors about all risks.

Imagine telling investors how risky riding an EUC is, and how easy they catch fire. 

[James Lin]

Everything is cheaper in China. Motors, batteries, electronic boards, assembles. Most of the electronic scooters are made in China too. Also lithium batteries are very expansive.

[Circuitmage]

Because of this....