R.I.P. Kingsong S18

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

details here

https://electricpeople.org/post/the-cutout-that-ended-my-week-old-kingsong-s18-no-warning-cutout-at-top-end--5f68be1a848b854bbcf8b615

more details on request.

 

such a shame... gutted.

[GoGeorgeGo]

Think you can salvage it with just a minot part swap? Control boarda arnt to expensive so long as the battery and motor survived the drink

[fryman]

5 hours ago, amelanso said:

the motor is certainly not toast and batts may also still be good - see 

I am not done my rehab of this machine but I am confident it will succeed ... but must be very careful with batts...

The batteries and motor are not waterproof.

[Lukasz]

On 9/25/2020 at 3:27 PM, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

details here

https://electricpeople.org/post/the-cutout-that-ended-my-week-old-kingsong-s18-no-warning-cutout-at-top-end--5f68be1a848b854bbcf8b615

more details on request.

 

such a shame... gutted.

I had repaired KS16S owned by my friend after 1/2 hour 1m deep underwater in Wisła river three years ago.

Wheel must be disassembled completely including motor, dried, main board must be replaced - and batteries checked for water ingress. 

ALL 4 battery packs in S18 are sealed using silicone and all of them include inside stickers which turns red if wet, so - first measure their voltage - if OK and if after fall they had been cold, with no issues immediately - it is quite possible that they survived well. Motor will also survive most likely - You have to open it, dry it for a few days, ball bearings must be replaced as they will rust for sure.

Cost of repair if lucky can be less than 1/2 of the cost of the wheel, so it make sense to repair it - especially if You are qualified enough to do it yourself. 

However it means complete disassembly and a lot of work.

Edited September 26, 2020 by Lukasz

[Tryptych]

I'd be a lot angrier if I was you Dan. It really pisses me off just hearing your story.

King Song caused this crash, not you. In my opinion they are absolute scum if they won't honor the warrenty and offer you help .

They are also really shitty business people if they don't understand that your story has been spread everywhere in this very very small community and is going to cost their bottomline a lot more than the value of an S18.

In this case being honorable, honoring your warrenty, and standing behind your product is the profitable thing to do. Who the hell is running this company?

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by Tryptych

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

16 hours ago, Lukasz said:

I had repaired KS16S owned by my friend after 1/2 hour 1m deep underwater in Wisła river three years ago.

Wheel must be disassembled completely including motor, dried, main board must be replaced - and batteries checked for water ingress. 

ALL 4 battery packs in S18 are sealed using silicone and all of them include inside stickers which turns red if wet, so - first measure their voltage - if OK and if after fall they had been cold, with no issues immediately - it is quite possible that they survived well. Motor will also survive most likely - You have to open it, dry it for a few days, ball bearings must be replaced as they will rust for sure.

Cost of repair if lucky can be less than 1/2 of the cost of the wheel, so it make sense to repair it - especially if You are qualified enough to do it yourself. 

However it means complete disassembly and a lot of work.

Thanks for the tips!

I'll go get the batteries and motor and open them up. Battery voltages were not ok, but the short may have been external (water in the connectors and across control board). I think lithium ions are pretty durable in that respect.

Heat was the first thing I checked for, before lugging it in the back of the works van to get the ferry... The next day as soon as I got home began dissassembly.

It's fully dissasembled now, will have a round two as soon as I can bare it.

 

 

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

On 9/25/2020 at 6:42 PM, GoGeorgeGo said:

Think you can salvage it with just a minot part swap? Control boarda arnt to expensive so long as the battery and motor survived the drink

Hopefully they are. Would be great if I can get it going again! Good little side project for sure.

 

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

8 hours ago, Tryptych said:

I'd be a lot angrier if I was you Dan. It really pisses me off just hearing your story.

King Song caused this crash, not you. In my opinion they are absolute scum if they won't honor the warrenty and offer you help .

They are also really shitty business people if they don't understand that your story has been spread everywhere in this very very small community and is going to cost their bottomline a lot more than the value of an S18.

In this case being honorable, honoring your warrenty, and standing behind your product is the profitable thing to do. Who the hell is running this company?

 

I think I skipped past anger and went to straight to dissapointment.

A lot of venting came through passing on the story. I think it's important people have awareness, I think I was under the delusion that kingsong products are supposed to be safer/give more warning than older less powerful (on paper) gotways (Tesla). It was certainly an expensive supprise and huge dissapointment to learn otherwise.

I really enjoyed my short time with my S18, and was looking for an excuse for it. Maybe a way to convince myself to get another... But I'm not sure I can.

I nearly left it in the lake because I couldn't see it, the water was so dirty and I had cuts all over. Luckily my workmate came in the van and talked me into it.

Maybe if it hadn't happened how it did and it happened somewhere on a road or something, I wouldn't even be here to complain or get angry. It could have been worse.

The EUC community had beebln really great, lots of support .

It would be lovely if kingsong did reach out to help, but I'm not holding onto that hope... I'm not even sure kingsong knows about this case, or would care. Seems they're not obligated to do anything.

In my denial of warranty claim, because of the water damage I cannot prove anything was wrong with the wheel, and so they won't help. 

Upon hearing that I was a bit angry for sure, why should I have to prove anything more etc etc. If they admit fault and offer help, they'd be praised as kings!

Its concerning though, kingsong saying there was nothing wrong with the wheel, feels like them saying that's normal, all S18s must do that. Beeps and tiltback just sometimes don't work for no reason, it's a feature. 

I don't think any EUC company covers water damage.

[Meserias]

I think you can try to repair it when spare parts became available on the market....
maybe you should (try!) reduce your general average speed too. Don't you think ?

I enter in the water to pick an Z10 and now it have been repaired and it's fully functional...

Edited September 27, 2020 by Meserias

[Chriull]

As there are so many post coming in in the S18 Discussion topic, i'll take our discussion over here :

 

"voltage managed to get to 83V from charging from 20% standing battery level, then green light, then immediately dropped by 1V then down to 1.3V. and wouldn't let me charge past 82V no matter how long the charger was on, this is why i had 95% after charging for a full night and half day. once disconnected from the charger the battery then "levelled out" by dropping down to 81.3 or 93%. i have video of this  charge cycle. and logs from day before showing 20%."

Seems i did not read all this details before answering there 

So your battery reports 83V and right after the green light of the charger it drops ~1V downto ~82V.

Normally chargers continue charging after the green light. If KS did not change this behaviour it was your BMS cutting off because one cell reached the overvoltage threshold.

Would be a sign of imbalanced cells.

1 hour ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

It would be lovely if kingsong did reach out to help, but I'm not holding onto that hope... I'm not even sure kingsong knows about this case, or would care. Seems they're not obligated to do anything.

Yes. The reseller you bought from has all the warranty obligation. KS are free to decide if and how they like to react.

1 hour ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

In my denial of warranty claim, because of the water damage I cannot prove anything was wrong with the wheel, and so they won't help. 

Theoreticlly during warranty period there should be a reversal of the burden of proof, but with the water damage it will not help too much... Maybe it could lead to something getting a lawyers opinion if you have a legal expense insurance.

As noone can proof how the state of the wheel was before entering the water, and the reseller has the burden of proof,  you have a video of a "strange" charging behaviour. So at least in my weird non lawyer mind this could have some chance?

1 hour ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

Its concerning though, kingsong saying there was nothing wrong with the wheel, feels like them saying that's normal, all S18s must do that. Beeps and tiltback just sometimes don't work for no reason, it's a feature. 

That's a "limitation" of a fixed tiltback speed. As seen in the examply in the "anatomy of an overlean"

The "small" battery makes it a bit more easy to reach such situations.

And having a weak or dead cell in your pack could worsen this situation a bit more...

Your csv could maybe show if it was just such a normal overlean. Maybe - maybe not. With just 3 samples a second the logs are just a (good) hint but don't show too much details...

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

8 hours ago, Chriull said:

As there are...

The adaptive tiltback feature below 50% was lovely, they should implement that at 100% to a lesser degree around top end. 80% beeps or something. But

looking at my power output I was just cruising around at less than 1300W. It was probably thinking about tilting back and just that action caused the cutout. Even a small nudge/adjustment during that time might have been too much. I feel I should've had plenty of headroom though, with the already limited speeds and low cruising output power. Maybe 46/48kph is just too high for this wheel with the 3p.

It seems like I didn't have the CSV logs active, there's no logs in my phone, just blank ones and an old Tesla one. So we're probably not going to be able to find out more. 

Thanks for your efforts and insight.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Daniel Hollinghurst

[Chriull]

13 minutes ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

It seems like I didn't have the CSV logs active, there's no logs in my phone, just blank ones and an old Tesla one. So we're probably not going to be able to find out more. 

The system changed - data is saved by euc world on the phone in a special database.

But one still can download the csv logs from the website.

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

2 hours ago, Chriull said:

The system changed - data is saved by euc world on the phone in a special database.

But one still can download the csv logs from the website.

CSV logs are blank, including the ones on website. Must be from when I was hitting buttons like a chimp in the app. I'm in android is there a directory I can get to?

Edit: think I found it, all blanks, appart from one which was from May on another wheel...

Edited September 27, 2020 by Daniel Hollinghurst

[EMA]

sorry for what happened, you're just another ks marketing victim.

these wheels are barely safe at 40km/h, labeling them 50km/h it's really a bad thing...your dip/cutout it's happening from the day 1 and it's very well know.

Hope you could save something from the wheel but ride safe man

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

Kingsong got in touch, apparently no claims matching mine. Not sure what that means. 

Anyways they're looking into it for me hurrah, might get it going again after all.

Edited September 27, 2020 by Daniel Hollinghurst

[GoGeorgeGo]

Honestly i would reach out to @Jack King Song to see if he can help.

 

This sounds like the wheel cutout and was having problems before it whent in the drink.  Maybe they cant cover the full repair costs due to water damages, but i would be suprised if they did absolutely nothing to help you here.

The LEAST they can do is offer a diagnostic of the wheel and maybe split the cost of repairs with you. Can probably be up and running for 500$ if the motor and batteries survived.

But you have to commit to getting help.  Just saying they probably wont, or now its to late will not help you.  Demand to be taken seriously and to be made right.  

You already had correspondence about the errors you experienced. Your wheel caused the mechanical issue that led to the crash. And Kingsong just recalled all non delivered wheels for repairs. You have plenty of evidence to at least have the company help you out with repairs on the wheel.  Hell my buddies machine literally caught fire and it cost him 750$ to repair. Dont give up!!

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

24 minutes ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

Honestly i would reach out to @Jack King Song to see if he can help.

 

This sounds like the wheel cutout and was having problems before it whent in the drink.  Maybe they cant cover the full repair costs due to water damages, but i would be suprised if they did absolutely nothing to help you here.

The LEAST they can do is offer a diagnostic of the wheel and maybe split the cost of repairs with you. Can probably be up and running for 500$ if the motor and batteries survived.

But you have to commit to getting help.  Just saying they probably wont, or now its to late will not help you.  Demand to be taken seriously and to be made right.  

You already had correspondence about the errors you experienced. Your wheel caused the mechanical issue that led to the crash. And Kingsong just recalled all non delivered wheels for repairs. You have plenty of evidence to at least have the company help you out with repairs on the wheel.  Hell my buddies machine literally caught fire and it cost him 750$ to repair. Dont give up!!

Thanks for the advice. Jack did get in contact . They're going to send some parts or something. Will sort out what's happening tomorrow. Yeh hopefully doesn't cost too much. 

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

On 9/26/2020 at 11:21 PM, Tryptych said:

I'd be a lot angrier if I was you Dan. It really pisses me off just hearing your story.

King Song caused this crash, not you. In my opinion they are absolute scum if they won't honor the warrenty and offer you help .

They are also really shitty business people if they don't understand that your story has been spread everywhere in this very very small community and is going to cost their bottomline a lot more than the value of an S18.

In this case being honorable, honoring your warrenty, and standing behind your product is the profitable thing to do. Who the hell is running this company?

 

I'm not so sure it was kingsong not honoring warranty, when they got wind of it they stepped in. I don't think they had a record of any claims matching mine.

I got the wheel, and warranty updates through chicway. 

They may have not given all the details, or only tired for new batteries or something. Not sure, make of it what you will.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Daniel Hollinghurst

[Tryptych]

13 hours ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

Kingsong got in touch, apparently no claims matching mine. Not sure what that means. 

Anyways they're looking into it for me hurrah, might get it going again after all.

I had a feeling they might change their tune if they saw enough negative feedback.  Stay on them, stay a bit angry (instead of disappointed), keep us posted!

[redsnapper]

On 9/26/2020 at 10:36 AM, Lukasz said:

I had repaired KS16S owned by my friend after 1/2 hour 1m deep underwater in Wisła river three years ago.

Wheel must be disassembled completely including motor, dried, main board must be replaced - and batteries checked for water ingress. 

ALL 4 battery packs in S18 are sealed using silicone and all of them include inside stickers which turns red if wet, so - first measure their voltage - if OK and if after fall they had been cold, with no issues immediately - it is quite possible that they survived well. Motor will also survive most likely - You have to open it, dry it for a few days, ball bearings must be replaced as they will rust for sure.

Cost of repair if lucky can be less than 1/2 of the cost of the wheel, so it make sense to repair it - especially if You are qualified enough to do it yourself. 

However it means complete disassembly and a lot of work.

Not sure if same packs but my inspection of ks16x underwater pack shows water ingress/corrosion. cells all balanced but I assume this pack is unsafe... Disssembly of pack not ez given bms is spot welded to pack and uses no wires for cell balancing... 

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

On 9/30/2020 at 12:49 AM, amelanso said:

Not sure if same packs but my inspection of ks16x underwater pack shows water ingress/corrosion.

Oh man, good luck with the 16x!

I think the s18 batteries are pretty well sealed. Now the connectors are dried out the voltages are looking better. I've not broken into the pack fully like you have. 

I think there might have been issues before they were underwater so I wouldn't trust them regardless. 

Hopefully it doesn't cost too much to get new ones sent.

Kingsong took over my claim internally which was really good of them. 

Jack said might be better to buy new one, but will try to fix first.

[redsnapper]

1 minute ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

Oh man, good luck with the 16x!

I think the s18 batteries are pretty well sealed. Now the connectors are dried out the voltages are looking better. I've not broken into the pack fully like you have. 

I think there might have been issues before they were underwater so I wouldn't trust them regardless. 

Hopefully it doesn't cost too much to get new ones sent.

Kingsong took over my claim internally which was really good of them. 

Jack said might be better to buy new one, but will try to fix first.

Controller replace is very ez and core wiring comes with new controller so no worries there. The packs are quite expensive (@500usd) so if KS is gonna provide packs and controller for free wow - that would be super! If you gonna try rehab the underwater packs, clearly you have to open and check for ingress. Otherwise it's a timebomb... 

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

0

1 hour ago, amelanso said:

Controller replace is very ez and core wiring comes with new controller so no worries there. The packs are quite expensive (@500usd) so if KS is gonna provide packs and controller for free wow - that would be super! If you gonna try rehab the underwater packs, clearly you have to open and check for ingress. Otherwise it's a timebomb... 

Not sure I'd trust them now. Would be interesting to see how well they held up though.

Yeh that'll be lovely, not sure what they'll send exactly, a new s18 would be nice :p. 

S18 was pretty easy to disassemble. So hoping reassembly is easy as well.

Yeh kingsong/ Jack has been pretty good, we almost had a bit of a fall out though because I took one of our conversations a bit funny, maybe I was being paranoid and awkward, anyway he took over the claim internally himself

Speedyfeet was very generous too saying he will help out with a discount if I don't get it sorted, even though I didn't buy from him. Lovely bloke. 

Jack said he couldn't see a reason for cutout either, especially when comparing it to his rides. It's a bit of a mystery. ( I suspect battery issues though, they weren't getting any better at holding charge properly).

Power output felt concervative, but it felt fine, solid, stable at speed, a joy to ride.

I did notice voltage going a bit nuts even when stood still (on the volt graph in KS app). Not sure if normal. It was spikes from 75-82V instead of flat after coming off the charger.  

I wasn't being demanding on the power, gotten pretty good at EUC and keeping safe over the years... highest output was like 1300W, cutout couldn't have been much higher :/ where's my 5000w peak hmm :(. Anyway, logs aren't perfect, and I don't have any more details, so not sure. So it's good of them to take my word for it and help out. A Shame the same couldn't be said for my Chinese reseller. Kingsong said they didn't have a claim matching mine. Maybe theres only so much chicway could do without stepping on the wrong toes.

Anyway, in a week or so I should know exactly what's happening. But it seems they're sending free parts out and I have to pay shipping fees. Which means I may not need to buy a new one from speedyfeet after all :). But sucks I have to spend out on something that already tried to off me. 

Wouldn't have gotten noticed without the EUC community behind me, so very grateful for that!