V11 - inflated speed and distance

[EUChristian]

5 hours ago, UniVehje said:

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (Hanlon’s razor)

I agree that this matters for the advertised top speed to be correct. For me it doesn’t, but I understand why it does to others. 
However, it would be fair to give @Inmotion Global a chance to correct or explain this before claiming it’s deliberate cheating. They might not even know about this and could be a simple error. The fix is so easy that it’ll tell a lot if it’s not done. 

A very fair post sir and a great quote. I do want to point out this was brought up already and partially confirmed (Seba's test is more official due to more data) but not sure they saw that thread either. So I will defer to Inmption on this. My point is valid either way it happened- just firmware update and Seba runs a test and this fades from memory. So the outcome here i believe will speak to the intention if you forward me...

If it is not addressed...when then we know what the intention was. And I'm assuming they use calculations of the wheel vs GPS to get the speed...mmk

I'll say as a Kingsong fanboy, I trust Innmotion more than any other EUC brand and I mean that - its why I switched my pre-order to the V11 from the S18. 

But I want my 34 miles an hour...period. at least with distance bs I can justify it by believing they test them by having a leprechaun chasing a rainbow on one of these things to get these advertised ranges. However I'm not as lenient on the laws of nature. 55kph is 55kmh, at least at our current relative speed on earth. Perhaps someone will suggest they tested it on a spaceship going fast enough to dilate speed?  Come on someone wants to...

Edited September 13, 2020 by EUChristian

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, EUChristian said:

A very fair post sir and a great quote. I do want to point out this was brought up already and partially confirmed (Seba's test is more official due to more data) but not sure they saw that thread either. So I will defer to Inmption on this. My point is valid either way it happened- just firmware update and Seba runs a test and this fades from memory. So the outcome here i believe will speak to the intention if you forward me...

If it is not addressed...when then we know what the intention was. And I'm assuming they use calculations of the wheel vs GPS to get the speed...mmk

I'll say as a Kingsong fanboy, I trust Innmotion more than any other EUC brand and I mean that - its why I switched my pre-order to the V11 from the S18. 

But I want my 34 miles an hour...period. at least with distance bs I can justify it by believing they test them by having a leprechaun chasing a rainbow on one of these things to get these advertised ranges. However I'm not as lenient on the laws of nature. 55kph is 55kmh, at least at our current relative speed on earth. Perhaps someone will suggest they tested it on a spaceship going fast enough to dilate speed?  Come on someone wants to...

Not sure what Chooch was using to get his speed numbers but he claimed to be cruising at 36 mph in one of his videos on the v11.  Light riders fo go faster in general, look at vees speed record on the Sherman hitting 52 mph

[AtlasP]

Does tire deformation play a significant-enough role to make a measurable difference? Wouldn't some combination of a higher pressure and/or a lighter rider producing less tire deformation result in a larger outer diameter and therefore higher speed?

Or I wonder if they just calculate for the algorithm using math derived from the cad drawings of the size of the tire (without any rider) not taking tire pressure/deformation into account at all.

Edited September 13, 2020 by AtlasP

[GoGeorgeGo]

1 hour ago, AtlasP said:

Does tire deformation play a significant-enough role to make a measurable difference? Wouldn't some combination of a higher pressure and/or a lighter rider producing less tire deformation result in a larger outer diameter and therefore higher speed?

Or I wonder if they just calculate for the algorithm using math derived from the cad drawings of the size of the tire (without any rider) not taking tire pressure/deformation into account at all.

To add to this, doesnt this only prove that the app inflates speed numbers and not that the wheel is incapable of attaining 35 mph? 

Like just because it inflates the speed does that mean it cant hit the 37 mph equivalent it would need to reach the advertised 35 mph? Or is there a hard limit on the machine at the inflated 35 mph mark? 

[EUChristian]

3 hours ago, GoGeorgeGo said:

To add to this, doesnt this only prove that the app inflates speed numbers and not that the wheel is incapable of attaining 35 mph? 

Like just because it inflates the speed does that mean it cant hit the 37 mph equivalent it would need to reach the advertised 35 mph? Or is there a hard limit on the machine at the inflated 35 mph mark? 

This is exactly my implication -  the wheels's motor is certainly capable of advertised speed with the motor wattage and the battery setup. It is an app issue entirely - they just need to make a change to code and we have the 55kmh down to 80% and then 50kmh down to 30%  So we wait to see what they say. Should I post in telegraph or has @Seba already?  I can't follow it - there are hundreds of posts over any given day lol. 

[EUChristian]

5 hours ago, AtlasP said:

Does tire deformation play a significant-enough role to make a measurable difference? Wouldn't some combination of a higher pressure and/or a lighter rider producing less tire deformation result in a larger outer diameter and therefore higher speed?

Or I wonder if they just calculate for the algorithm using math derived from the cad drawings of the size of the tire (without any rider) not taking tire pressure/deformation into account at all.

I honestly don't see the math to get this far off through tire deformation. Can someone run the same test?  Let's get data here from multiple people. 

[Mark Wilson]

I hope Inmotion does something to remedy this. Advertising the wheel as 34 mph when it is actually only doing 31 mph is not cool. Though I'm curious, what are other wheels like? I've heard KingSong inflate their speeds. If so, by how much? Does Gotway and Veteran do the same?

[EUC Custom Power-Pads]

My MSP Speed reading was 60kmh and GPS/EUC World showed 58.

After changing the original tire from 18x3.0 CST-C1488 against a 2.75-14 knobby tire with 18mm bigger diameter, the speed reading matched exactly the GPS speed. 

18 mm difference = 2 kmh!!! 

So please stop talking about tire pressure, rider weight or other nonsens. 😂

[AtlasP]

[Nevermind--misread]

Edited September 14, 2020 by AtlasP

[Mark Wilson]

16 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

9mm radius difference produced 2km/h difference in speed. That's actually more than I would expect--a measly tenth of a centimeter producing that much of an impact.

9mm = 0.9cm or about 1cm

[EUChristian]

So no brands tests the wheel with a rider on it? All brands overinflate speed? Ok I stand corrected. So when is the software update coming to fix that?  Because again for the third time, we all know this can be fixed. And inmotion actually has integrity and will address this...right?

The reason we have these issues is because we wink and nod and buy anyway and agree to let it be. 

And instead of us joining up as a group and using our buying power to get a fix we just...accept this?  

Instead let's demand an update to correct the speed and all live happily ever after. Right?

4 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

I hope Inmotion does something to remedy this. Advertising the wheel as 34 mph when it is actually only doing 31 mph is not cool. Though I'm curious, what are other wheels like? I've heard KingSong inflate their speeds. If so, by how much? Does Gotway and Veteran do the same?

I'm curious on this too. Has anyone tested other wheels?  How many underspeed wheels have we bought?

Edited September 14, 2020 by EUChristian

[EUChristian]

25 minutes ago, AtlasP said:

When considering tire deformation in this context we need to think in terms of the radius (aka distance between ground and axle) not tire diameter--which means if we take your measurements at face value, only 9mm radius difference produced 2km/h difference in speed. That's actually more than I would expect--a measly tenth of a centimeter producing that much of an impact.

A rider standing on an EUC with an average pressure would probably see a little more than only 9mm tire deformation/depression--compared to a CAD rendering of the tire as a perfect circle.

Those numbers actually somewhat line up/help argue for the point you're attempting to dismiss with snark, don't they?

Its not deformation man come on here...even if it is correct the software. Hell don't even give me 34mph if thats too tough to code lol just have app read correct speed! 

Edited September 14, 2020 by EUChristian

[AtlasP]

@Mark Wilson -- my bad/removed, thanks for catching that.

[GoGeorgeGo]

15 minutes ago, EUChristian said:

So no brands tests the wheel with a rider on it? All brands overinflate speed? Ok I stand corrected. So when is the software update coming to fix that?  Because again for the third time, we all know this can be fixed. And inmotion actually has integrity and will address this...right?

The reason we have these issues is because we wink and nod and buy anyway and agree to let it be. 

And instead of us joining up as a group and using our buying power to get a fix we just...accept this?  

Instead let's demand an update to correct the speed and all live happily ever after. Right?

Dont all companies test for best case scenario on every product though? Like sure they could get a 300 lb rider in the middle of a wind storm and return minimum performance specs instead, but thats not how marketing works.  If the numbers are realistic for a small rider with a tailwind then they are not false.  Put a 100 lb rider on 50 psi tire pressure and you might go faster than the app says, chooch says he took his v11 to 36 mph and cruised at that speed.

I can understand wanting to be able to input weight and tire pressure into the app to help properly measure speed. I just dont think its necessarily some false advertising if it can be recreated in good conditions with the right rider. Like i know im big,  i know i get less range and speed on every wheel than my buddies 110lb girlfriend who rides with us.  I just expect that, i dont blame them for testing with optimal conditions. 

Wheels dont have accelerometers equipped do they? Im pretty sure they just base speed on the rpms right? 

Edited September 14, 2020 by GoGeorgeGo

[musk]

As a consumer I'm desensitized to inflated specs, causing me to not care about this.    For example:

• When you buy a 16 gigabyte iPhone, you don't get 16 gigs of usable space.
• When you buy a 2TB hard drive, after it's formatted and actually available for use you don't really get 2TB
• When you'd buy an old CRT television (back when those were a thing), the diagonal screen measurement was practically a lie
• A 2x4 plank isn't 2x4".
• An EUC's range stat is only applicable to a certain rider weight, on flat ground, at a certain temperature.  None of that "best case scenario" represents my real-world conditions.

And so on. 

I appreciate that the OP measured the real speed, as it's handy to know. 

[Seba]

12 hours ago, musk said:

As a consumer I'm desensitized to inflated specs, causing me to not care about this.

I'm too, but we have to admit that many EUC riders crave for speed and it matters for them if EUC top speed is 50 km/h or "only" 45 km/h  Even Inmotion recently added "Fancier" mode that increase advertised speed from 50 km/h to 55 km/h. So they understand that it's something that is important for many of their customers. Still, 7-8% is way less that 18 % in case of KS-18L/XL. What interesting, King Song distance is way less inflated than speed. 

[Mark Wilson]

1 hour ago, Seba said:

18 % in case of KS-18L/XL

Is that the same for the S18? That would mean it only goes about 25.5 mph? I didn't realize that KingSong misrepresented their specs that bad.

[EUChristian]

7 hours ago, Seba said:

I'm too, but we have to admit that many EUC riders crave for speed and it matters for them if EUC top speed is 50 km/h or "only" 45 km/h  Even Inmotion recently added "Fancier" mode that increase advertised speed from 50 km/h to 55 km/h. So they understand that it's something that is important for many of their customers. Still, 7-8% is way less that 18 % in case of KS-18L/XL. What interesting, King Song distance is way less inflated than speed. 

Thank you sir I am one of those people  Its telling to me now why the same major issues have existed with these machines for five years. We accept them. There are issues with designs. I accept that. There are issues with wiring and parts. I'll accept that. New releases have bugs to work out. I'll accept that. 

I will not accept false claims on speed because that's not a design issue. It's a coding issue. And it could be fixed today if they wanted to. 

So everyone who is stating that this doesn't bother them misses the point that if we as a group said we draw the line on this - please fix it - it would get fixed. If half the community says "I don't care" then why change it?  People keep stating that this is how Chinese companies work - ok well why don't we show them how American dollars work?  I get some of you aren't passionate about it. But doesn't part of you want this fixed? For integrities sake? 

[Seba]

6 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

Is that the same for the S18? That would mean it only goes about 25.5 mph? I didn't realize that KingSong misrepresented their specs that bad.

I don't know. I didn't made any research on S18 yet.

[Ferreal]

On 9/13/2020 at 6:06 AM, GoGeorgeGo said:

Not sure what Chooch was using to get his speed numbers but he claimed to be cruising at 36 mph in one of his videos on the v11.  Light riders fo go faster in general, look at vees speed record on the Sherman hitting 52 mph

Chooch claimed to be riding at 36mph on 50% battery lol

[Seba]

8 hours ago, Mark Wilson said:

Is that the same for the S18? That would mean it only goes about 25.5 mph? I didn't realize that KingSong misrepresented their specs that bad.

I've just run a query against EUC World database. For now there are 174 tours done on KS-S18 that are longer than 5 kilometers. According to this data, distance reported by S18 is on par with real distance (no correction needed) but speed is inflated by 6 %, so to get real speed speed correction should be set at -6%.

[EUChristian]

17 minutes ago, Seba said:

I've just run a query against EUC World database. For now there are 174 tours done on KS-S18 that are longer than 5 kilometers. According to this data, distance reported by S18 is on par with real distance (no correction needed) but speed is inflated by 6 %, so to get real speed speed correction should be set at -6%.

Now we are getting somewhere. Thank you sir. 

Does anyone understand the software on these machines?  Does a fix involve manipulating a single line of code?  I'm willing to wait on a fix I just would like to hear from the bosses on this. 

Seems small to you but if I was doing again I'd pick up the Monster. I don't trust the S18 rebuild process users are going through and battery config worries me  Suspension is nice and part of the total package but I bought based on speed - they moved from 50 to 55 and that's when I seriously decided time to switch. 

Deviation is too high here. 

[EUChristian]

1 hour ago, Ferreal said:

Chooch claimed to be riding at 36mph on 50% battery lol

From what I understand if you are going downhill inmotions software is more sophisticated and you can nudge it past tiltback. I asked about this myself. 

[mrelwood]

3 hours ago, EUChristian said:

if we as a group said we draw the line on this - please fix it - it would get fixed.

The first step would be to report the issue to Inmotion. They don’t read every thread here. If the issue is reported to them directly, they’d have the chance to at least consider doing something about it. Not buying the wheel doesn’t tell them anything about this exact issue.

Edited September 15, 2020 by mrelwood

[EUChristian]

15 hours ago, mrelwood said:

The first step would be to report the issue to Inmotion. They don’t read every thread here. If the issue is reported to them directly, they’d have the chance to at least consider doing something about it. Not buying the wheel doesn’t tell them anything about this exact issue.

Both of these actions paired are meaningful and I agree one without the other is worthless  Can someone report on the WhatsApp thread?  They have been tagged in this thread as well. What else needs to be done to report...a PM?