Popular Post Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2020 When I was first testing V11 I noticed that speed and distance values were inflated. I was curious if this was a problem with just a single unit or if this is a common thing. So I made another tests with my V11 and it behaves in the same way. I used data from seven rides, five done on 1st batch unit, two on 2nd batch unit. GPS distance has been verified with map and error is smaller than 1 %. There was no carving, I was riding just straight, maintaining riding speed in range of 25 - 30 km/h. Here are data: GPS DIST EUC DIST RATIO GPS AVG SP EUC AVG SP RATIO EUC BATCH 9.028 9.740 0.93 18.6 20.1 0.92 2nd 9.104 9.770 0.93 19.1 20.6 0.93 2nd 13.6 15.0 0.91 1st 18.5 20.2 0.92 1st 149.598 160.910 0.93 17.3 19.2 0.91 1st 9.514 10.269 0.92 19.2 20.9 0.92 1st 9.098 9.740 0.93 17.7 19.3 0.91 1st AVG RATIO AVG RATIO 0.93 0.92 CORR FACTOR CORR FACTOR -7 % -8 % As you can see, results are consistent. Speed is inflated by 8 %, distance is inflated by 7 %. GPS distance takes into account all hills, because GPS does 3D measurement. GPS distance was checked against distance from the map and error was less than 1 %. Two rides doesn't have distance data, as distance correction was already applied for these rides. Each wheel has different firmware version (2nd batch wheel has latest 1.1.62). 12 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Most cars have 3-5kmh offset too from factory. They do this on purpose to avoid cardriver getting a ticket as spped/distance isn't calibrated every time you have different tires put on your car. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2020 I've now checked all tours in EUC World database and speed and distance inflation is confirmed. I only included tours that are longer than 5 km. This returned results for 74 tours and median value of GPS DIST to EUC DIST ratio was 0.94 (that translates to distance correction factor of -6 %). 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Unventor said: Most cars have 3-5kmh offset too from factory. They do this on purpose to avoid cardriver getting a ticket as spped/distance isn't calibrated every time you have different tires put on your car. I know homologation regulations that are applied for car speedometers They however doesn't apply to EUCs. For example all Gotways returns real speed and this is what riders expect from the manufacture - if a wheel is marketed as 55 km/h top speed, it should be able to reach that speed (of course with fully charged battery). This is not a problem for me, as I don't ride fast and switched from King Song that was inflating speed even more. I just wanted to share my findings with other community members and give correction factors that need to be applied to get real speed and distance readout. 8 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 14 minutes ago, Unventor said: Most cars have 3-5kmh offset too from factory. They do this on purpose to avoid cardriver getting a ticket as spped/distance isn't calibrated every time you have different tires put on your car. BTW I've checked your tours and median GPS/EUC distance ratio is 0.93 too... 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Seba said: BTW I've checked your tours and median GPS/EUC distance ratio is 0.93 too... It is because of vat....or tax. They put that on anything in Sweden and Denmark but I don't care I love my rides anyway. I don't ride for speed. I have though raise the limit to 40kmh. And these rides I only think I have 2 or so logged with EUC.WORLD. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2020 4 minutes ago, Unventor said: I don't care I love my rides anyway. I don't ride for speed. Same with me, but having a reliable distance value is a good thing 5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Seba said: When I was first testing V11 I noticed that speed and distance values were inflated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 1 hour ago, Seba said: I know homologation regulations that are applied for car speedometers They however doesn't apply to EUCs. For example all Gotways returns real speed and this is what riders expect from the manufacture - if a wheel is marketed as 55 km/h top speed, it should be able to reach that speed (of course with fully charged battery). @Seba, the manufacturer tunes this for the stock tire they ship with, right? If there is enough shell space to fit a bigger diameter wheel, it should technically go a little faster, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Author Share Posted September 10, 2020 6 minutes ago, houseofjob said: @Seba, the manufacturer tunes this for the stock tire they ship with, right? If there is enough shell space to fit a bigger diameter wheel, it should technically go a little faster, no? In theory yes, but I don't think there is room for tire bigger than 18x3. But even it it would be possible to fit 18x3.5 tire, it would make wheel faster by 5 % only. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
houseofjob Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 21 minutes ago, Seba said: In theory yes, but I don't think there is room for tire bigger than 18x3. But even it it would be possible to fit 18x3.5 tire, it would make wheel faster by 5 % only. Hmmmm.... FWIW we do have guys here in NYC that fit slightly bigger tires like 80mm wide Michelin’s and Continentals that are usually slightly bigger in diameter, but yes, perhaps the increase is very small. I haven’t been following, but does EUC World let you input tire diameter to adjust the speedometer? I imagine you’re getting RPM off the wheel’s Bluetooth, no? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Seba Posted September 10, 2020 Author Popular Post Share Posted September 10, 2020 7 minutes ago, houseofjob said: I haven’t been following, but does EUC World let you input tire diameter to adjust the speedometer? I imagine you’re getting RPM off the wheel’s Bluetooth, no? EUCs send distance and speed values over BLE, so there is no need to make any conversion from RPM (actually wheels doesn't send motor RPMs to the app). As I already wrote, some wheels are inflating these values by a known factor. Sometimes you need to compensate for different tire size, so you have to calculate this factor by yourself. EUC World allows to enter correction factors (from -20 % to 20 %) that will be applied to speed and distance received from EUC, so after all you get real values. If you don't know what factors should be applied to your wheel, you can just compare EUC and GPS readings (they are synchronized on EUC connection). 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UniVehje Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 Interesting. This should be very simple to correct in the firmware if Inmotion wants to. The error is too big to come from just a different tire when calibrated. If it’s not done on purpose to up the spec sheet number, then it’s probably just some guy half assing the code With an approximation of the circumference there. I really do wonder how it’s been done and if it has been calibrated. I also wonder how much tire pressure would affect. If they measured the tire when on the table maybe the effective circumference when riding could be different?? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
h3X Posted September 10, 2020 Share Posted September 10, 2020 May I suggest that euc world could have a list of wheels with standard corrections, so we don't have to look up the correction factor for our wheel when we want to set it? 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rawnei Posted September 11, 2020 Share Posted September 11, 2020 Same thing with some ebikes, bosch motor specifically (I have one) does it and the discrepancy is quite big, I even asked my vendor to change the tire size in the computer to make the offset smaller but still not gone. It's very annoying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lioku Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 On 9/10/2020 at 1:56 PM, UniVehje said: I really do wonder how it’s been done and if it has been calibrated. I also wonder how much tire pressure would affect. I suspect that Inmotion either uses the nominal tire diameter for their calculation, or calibrates it with a light rider and a tire inflated to max-psi. Because rider weight and tire inflation level both have an impact on effective tire circumference (gets smaller as the tire is compressed more) the correction factor will be different for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 45 minutes ago, lioku said: I suspect that Inmotion either uses the nominal tire diameter for their calculation, or calibrates it with a light rider and a tire inflated to max-psi. Because rider weight and tire inflation level both have an impact on effective tire circumference (gets smaller as the tire is compressed more) the correction factor will be different for everyone. LOL...I'm always so amused when fanboys try to talk themselves into everything. Man, that's just bullshit, there are no excuses for that. This is deliberately programmed wrong to pretend a higher speed. All your arguments, even if they all apply at the same time, don't lead to such a big deviation. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
musk Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 1 hour ago, buell47 said: LOL...I'm always so amused when fanboys try to talk themselves into everything. Man, that's just bullshit, there are no excuses for that. This is deliberately programmed wrong to pretend a higher speed. All your arguments, even if they all apply at the same time, don't lead to such a big deviation. I'm a fanboy and don't care what the speed readout is. It could say 1,000,000 km/s for all I care. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUC Custom Power-Pads Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) On 9/12/2020 at 9:33 AM, musk said: I'm a fanboy and don't care what the speed readout is. It could say 1,000,000 km/s for all I care. I don't care also what the speed readout is, but I care what speed I can ride if this is a important thing for me! If I buy a wheel with advertised speed of 55 km/h (with special Firmware) instead of just 50 kmh, then I don't want a Wheel that can't ride that speed. For me speed is a really important part of the wheel and if I had purchased the V11, I would be very angry. But advertising a special 55 kmh firmware is so ridiculous, if the Wheel just reached the normal speed of 50 kmh with that firmware. 50kmh until battery drops below 80%, damn that's hard stuff for all buyers they thought it can ride 50 or for short time even 55kmh. Edited September 13, 2020 by buell47 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUChristian Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 (edited) 14 hours ago, buell47 said: I don't care also what the speed readout is, but I care what speed I can ride if this is a important thing for me! If I buy a wheel with advertised speed of 55 km/h (with speziell Firmware) instead of just 50 kmh, then I don't want a Wheel that can't ride that speed. For me speed is a really important part of the wheel and if I had purchased the V11, I would be very angry. But advertising a special 55 kmh firmware is so ridiculous, if the Wheel just reached the normal speed of 50 kmh with that firmware. 50kmh until battery drops below 80%, damn that's hard stuff for all buyers they thought it can ride 50 or for short time even 55kmh. I agree with you. "Most cars have an offset from the factory" lol thats good because I thought I was buying a corvette. This is 100% deliberate and anyone here trying to say different is grasping at straws and I don't even believe you believe what you are saying. The deviation is far beyond margin of error. Whats good is if Innmotion has integrity its a simple software update. And yes, I put that right out there. Simple question Seba - what would the top speed of this machine actually be taking your calculations into effect? 35 drops to 33 and 31 drops to 29? I want to be fair and as someone said above - if you don't care this isn't a problem for you and I understand that completely. I don't care if I have missing screws as I will check the machine and fix it. Others will think this is a bad issue because they do r want to take it apart. For me the integrity of the speed is a major issue as im buying an advertised top speed and want its promised performance. If a simple firmware update can be done for magical cost, why not just do jt? Edited September 12, 2020 by EUChristian 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Unventor Posted September 12, 2020 Share Posted September 12, 2020 I really don't think it matters at all. The biggest feature of the V11 isn't the speed. If that is your only concern then you brought the wrong wheel. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EUChristian Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 2 hours ago, Unventor said: I really don't think it matters at all. The biggest feature of the V11 isn't the speed. If that is your only concern then you brought the wrong wheel. Understood. For you. For me it matters a lot. Quoting what is the biggest feature misses the whole point of my post. And we both know the error could be easily corrected... 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaotropic Posted September 13, 2020 Share Posted September 13, 2020 41 minutes ago, EUChristian said: Understood. For you. For me it matters a lot. Quoting what is the biggest feature misses the whole point of my post. And we both know the error could be easily corrected... I with you on this. It is hard to come up with a justifiable reason to inflate the the speed. Even if this wheel wasn’t “built” for speed like a gotway or Sherman, the 35/31 is a good threshold. The wheel feels less premium with 33/29. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seba Posted September 13, 2020 Author Share Posted September 13, 2020 5 hours ago, EUChristian said: Simple question Seba - what would the top speed of this machine actually be taking your calculations into effect? 35 drops to 33 and 31 drops to 29? "Fancier" mode advertised top speed of 55 kph / 34 mph will be 51 kph / 32 mph in reality. With "Fancier" mode off, advertised top speed of 50 kph / 31 mph will be 47 kph / 29 mph in reality. So after all, we still have a 50 kph / 32 mph wheel after activating "Fancier" mode Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post UniVehje Posted September 13, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted September 13, 2020 (edited) "Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" (Hanlon’s razor) I agree that this matters for the advertised top speed to be correct. For me it doesn’t, but I understand why it does to others. However, it would be fair to give @Inmotion Global a chance to correct or explain this before claiming it’s deliberate cheating. They might not even know about this and could be a simple error. The fix is so easy that it’ll tell a lot if it’s not done. Edited September 13, 2020 by UniVehje 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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