redsnapper Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 1 hour ago, RagingGrandpa said: All of you ^^ please take this as a lesson learned: Shipping that battery put strangers at risk. We need to discourage this in the future, not only for safety of life, but also to preserve the public reputation of EUC's. (I intend this post as a lesson learned, not a condemnation... @amelanso did the commendable thing of reporting facts back to the group here, without which we wouldn't have the lesson.) I agree with @RagingGrandpa - situations like this where high risk of pack damage prior to shipping should lead to transactions where the batts are left out of the equation. When I recvd the wheel and saw how well the packs appeared to be sealed I was confident they would be AOK. IN retrospect this was cavalier/foolhardy - thankfully a bullet dodged as nothing happened during ground shipping. Perhaps @RagingGrandpa you can explain a little about how small amounts of humidity/corrosion can lead to spontaneous ignition of a pack? Nothing like understanding to help drive the point home... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tinkererboi Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 @RagingGrandpa point taken and lesson well learnt! Just because many batteries have survived a dunk does not mean all batteries will be as fortunate. Just takes unlucky unit to blow up in transit for the world to turn its attention toward us and severely compromise our sport/hobby/lifestyle. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagingGrandpa Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) On 9/30/2020 at 11:42 AM, amelanso said: explain a little about how small amounts of humidity/corrosion can lead to spontaneous ignition of a pack? Sure. We're concerned with fires. Typically, different types of faults will result in fire, according to the different parts of an EUC's normal life: Riding Recharging Storage and transport Corrosion can create faults of many types. Some relevant ones to fires in these three areas are: During riding: Open-circuits in parallel groups (cause by corrosion) result in cells being 'out of circuit,' increasing the burden on the remaining cells in the group and leading to overdischarge. Overdischarged cells become 'heaters' as current is forced through them, and away we go... During recharging: Open-circuits in balancing connections defeat the cell balancing behavior, and also defeat the cell monitoring for over- and under-voltage. Charging overdischarged cells results in heating; charging overvoltage cells can result in sudden thermal runaway. Short-circuits in the BMS can result in unintended discharge when the various balancing circuits become active. This discharge can melt traces on the PCB, emitting conductive debris that can cause further shorting; or worse, overheat the cells themselves. During storage (and transport): Short-circuits can result from bridging of components and circuits in the BMS. These 'bridges' can come from solids or liquids that are 'loose' in the pack- such as flaky rust. Your pack showed a bridge forming on the PCB between the positive tab of cell 20, and the balancing vias of cells 14, 13, 12, 11. If a connection were made there, it would dissipate heat, and is capable of leading to circuit destruction and follow-on shorting, or cell overdischarge and associated issues. ...and this is not a complete list of failure modes! Additional failures (other than fire) are also certainly possible, notably: EUC crashes while riding due to the pack becoming unable to supply the necessary power. Analysis will not convince everyone- so if you haven't been convinced yet, please understand that it has happened in the real world! One example here. Anyhow, I'm looking forward to more updates as you continue Edited October 23, 2023 by RagingGrandpa (img url) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 3 minutes ago, RagingGrandpa said: Anyhow, I'm looking forward to more updates as you continue Great explanation! All hail @RagingGrandpa!!! Good design of wirefree BMS interface in this KS batt but pita to tear down this pack as 40+ spot welds are holding the BMS onto the pack :-( I am opening the 2nd pack and will advise on findings. My confidence is low - if 2nd pack also toast my gamble on this scuba wheel will have been a bad one. Perhaps I should have opened the packs before replacing the controller - DOH! :-( 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) are miracles possible? pack 2 appears to hv survived immersion unscathed! as i continue this resurrection project with further incantations, pack 1 will stay confined to his lobster pot prison (DEMON - THOU SHALT NOT PASS!!). but hope has returned and grey skies are lifting! this ks16x may yet rise up from the depths... Edited September 30, 2020 by amelanso 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) strange -new controller appears stuck in upgrade loop. board does not seem to be upgrading and reports no valid data... Anyone know how to solve this? Update - drkbot was able to do the update and board appears to be wrking aok ! now to connect motor and do proper reassembly then test! Edited September 30, 2020 by amelanso Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayBanMonster Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) On 8/19/2020 at 12:48 AM, LhttaM said: Hey guys, today I was out trail-riding on my 16x when I had to bail (my overconfident ass), and my wheel fell into the river . I've been told it's beyond repair, but I'm not sure what to do with this thing. How can responsibly dispose my 16x? Oh geez, this happened to me too... riding on my MSX by the river came off after getting bogged down in the sand, went down slow speed, came up couldn't find my wheel. Guy that saw the whole thing happened said it went towards the river... we went for a look and could see red light glowing about 5 ft down... Man ! Next day this dude went to fetch it from the river, called me, I picked it up, gave him some money took it home to dry out... but.. Upon closer examination electrolytic corrosion was evident on USB port and that meant the whole thing was the same inside. I instantly knew, a complete Write off. Leaned it up outside on my enclosed patio and after 4 days.. someone stole it. lol.. Thats how to dispose of a wheel alright, good luck to them. Edited September 30, 2020 by RayBanMonster 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 8 minutes ago, RayBanMonster said: I instantly knew, a complete Write off. I disagree since it is looking more and more like this submariner KS16x will indeed emerge from the murky depths bloodied but unbowed! Who knows - perhaps your waterlogged MSX has also been resurrected by the stealthy pilferer who absconded with it! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayBanMonster Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, amelanso said: I disagree since it is looking more and more like this submariner KS16x will indeed emerge from the murky depths bloodied but unbowed! Who knows - perhaps your waterlogged MSX has also been resurrected by the stealthy pilferer who absconded with it! Well I did a little research into electrolytic corrosion and the effect of water and my conclusion was as follows Electrolytic Corrosion over extended period devastatingly corrodes particularly cathode's (+ve). Electrolytes react there with the metal to disrupt the material so corrosively, (huge voltages involved) it changes the conductivity, performance & physical characteristics permanently, this was evidenced by what looked similar to cobalt deposition (old batteries left in garages that heavily spoiled), on the USB port... it was unrecognisable. The item was in the water for a minimum of 12 hours and submerged at a depth enough to cause intrusion into plastic structures including capacitors and batteries, as well as devastating corrosion to the wired connector points all over the units electronic connectors and therefore battery heads. electronic components and even resistivity would have been changed beyond repair. As such at the very minimum the wheel motor assembly, control board every wire in the unit Both lights All electric switches /hubs and connector points inc battery charging ports would have required replacing. That cost alone is exceeding more than half the price of the new cost of the unit. Add to that the fact that Id have to wire all of it from scratch with no experience, all on a 10 month old wheel with extensive side shell damage from learning and already in need of shell replacement ( The Gotway plastic problem) . The most difficult part of the assembly? Wiring from scratch with no easy reference and this becomes a project of time & money and sweat for very little gain over purchase of a new wheel. Conclusion: Wheels submerged in rivers and lakes will corrode very quickly, evebn if you remove it in under 2 minutes you may have issues and Perhaps after 10 -20 minutes its gone. Would cost me more to fix than to sell such a wheel and then there's a risk of error in the construction. Definitely a write off my friend. Going to attempt to claim on my house insurance.... wish me luck, you know how those insurance companies are. :-) Has anybody managed to make a claim on insurance for a wheel that's my next issue. Edited September 30, 2020 by RayBanMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted September 30, 2020 Share Posted September 30, 2020 ur not wiring without a reference because everything is there before u tear it down (plus there are lots of vids showing complete tear downs/re-assembly). the main wiring comes with mainboard replacement (so that is replaced). The low voltage wiring (leds, speakers, etc) is all insulated other than connectors which can easily be cleaned ( or replaced at very little cost ). Once torn down, an euc is really not made with much - wiring is minimal issue. For me rehabbing a broken machine is abt all the stuff u learn in the process, the satisfaction from redirecting something from the trashpile back to usefullness and the collab with other knowledgeable DIYers. Bonus if I can end up with a rehabbed 2000$ wheel for 500$!!! Bottom line - it's just fun to take shit apart and fix it. But I am getting ahead of myself as I hv yet to re-assemble everything and test the motor. More to follow... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayBanMonster Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 13 hours ago, amelanso said: ur not wiring without a reference because everything is there before u tear it down (plus there are lots of vids showing complete tear downs/re-assembly). the main wiring comes with mainboard replacement (so that is replaced). The low voltage wiring (leds, speakers, etc) is all insulated other than connectors which can easily be cleaned ( or replaced at very little cost ). Once torn down, an euc is really not made with much - wiring is minimal issue. For me rehabbing a broken machine is abt all the stuff u learn in the process, the satisfaction from redirecting something from the trashpile back to usefullness and the collab with other knowledgeable DIYers. Bonus if I can end up with a rehabbed 2000$ wheel for 500$!!! Bottom line - it's just fun to take shit apart and fix it. But I am getting ahead of myself as I hv yet to re-assemble everything and test the motor. More to follow... This is true, and is indeed what I am about to do with my Nikola plus since it needs a new body shell and motor ( I hit a missed paving step from road to path, thought it was smooth graduation), dented the rim & cracked the case... A new DIY project is born... Looking forward to it. However, Ive got to tell you for my MSX, the electrolytic corrosion was something else to have seen and that battery pack (the most expensive part of an EUC would definitely need replacing. as well as the wheel motor... all because Iam a high speed rider I am above 35mph a lot... that project was just too much for me, the only thing that wouldn't need replacing was the pedal hangers lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, RayBanMonster said: all because Iam a high speed rider I am above 35mph a lot... that project was just too much for me, the only thing that wouldn't need replacing was the pedal hangers lol Indeed - the more aggressive is your riding style, the more your hardware has to be rock solid. I rarely drive above 30kph and I don't tend to push machines hard - a crash at 28kph on a trail mucked up my shoulder for 6mos so I have dialed back on riding style And this KS16 project may yet come to bite me as I am almost always in over my head on these things ( thx to a good "safety squint" & the helpful input from various members @RagingGrandpa , @RockyTop , @smallexis @Marty Backe etc. I have yet to suffer serious disfigurement!). Good luck with the Nikola project - I have found a hot glue gun to be quite useful in trying to prolong the life of damaged shells! Huzzah to the DIY ethos :-) Edited October 1, 2020 by amelanso 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayBanMonster Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 (edited) A hot glue gun"...hmmm thats interesting for future issues, thanks for the tip.... That said there are good stories... this guy dumped his in the river but removed it very quickly... Mine was in the river for 12hours, even wheeling it on the road it felt very odd and very resistant to roll suggesting something deep was going on... Dumping EUCs in rivers is becoming a thing ! check it out. lol Edited October 1, 2020 by RayBanMonster Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 6 minutes ago, RayBanMonster said: That said there are good stories... this guy dumped his in the river but removed it very quickly... I don't see that this guy opened up the batt pack and by far this is the most crucial part of rehabbing a scuba wheel (imo). His swampmonster is a great story unless it burns his house down ( or someone else's ). Until he inspects the pack, he is literally playing with fire! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayBanMonster Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 12 minutes ago, amelanso said: I don't see that this guy opened up the batt pack and by far this is the most crucial part of rehabbing a scuba wheel (imo). His swampmonster is a great story unless it burns his house down ( or someone else's ). Until he inspects the pack, he is literally playing with fire! EXACTLY there surely must be ingress of water into the battery pack and man I wouldn't trust a wheel like that without also changing the battery... What is most interesting is, hes not riding it is he? lol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted October 1, 2020 Share Posted October 1, 2020 3 minutes ago, RayBanMonster said: EXACTLY there surely must be ingress of water into the battery pack and man I wouldn't trust a wheel like that without also changing the battery... What is most interesting is, hes not riding it is he? lol Maybe he replaced the pack and that was not mentioned? He has 3K subs on youtube so hopefully people will not assume that it is safe to just trust a pack that has gone underwater - I left a comment on his vid - hopefully he will confirm that pack was replaced or that he will stop using until properly inspected. I bring my machine into stores, schools, banks etc. Would be very dangerous/unfortunate (and bad for EUC rep in general) for a machine with a wet pack to meltdown in a setting like that... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted October 2, 2020 Share Posted October 2, 2020 (edited) this rehab is complete - moment of truth was when i reconnected motor and hall sensors wrked! I then finished reassembly and took her for a spin - worked great! And I hate it!!! Rides terrible!!!! Get up to speed and the thing just wants to go straight! I thought maybe too much psi but even on a soft inflation this thing handles way worse than my v8! Is it the wide tire? Extra weight? At low speed it is agile enough but above 20kph and I am fighting to get this thing to carve even slightly... I notice the app appears to not wanna let me change the rider mode - stuck in beginner mode. Is this some kind of trial period limit? I"ll hv to dig into the settings to see if I am missing something but my overall impression of ks16x - underwhelming :-( I've a mind to send it back to its watery grave! Oy... AWESOME!!! UPDATE - I took for a good long run into mixed - off road then urban terrain. Very different than V8 but I ended up having a blast! Could definitely attack some stuff with more stability and confidence than on V8. My efforts to rehab the scuba wheel have not been in vain! Edited October 3, 2020 by amelanso 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redsnapper Posted October 10, 2020 Share Posted October 10, 2020 one last update on this rehab saga - i agreed to buy this wheel from the original poster for 250usd plus shipping. So he shipped the wheel with prepaid shipping and UPS dropped it on my doorstep. Then I did the tehab work etc. Abt 1 month later I get an invoice from ups saying I owe 350$ for brokerage and customs fees! So I figure BS im not paying that and Ill just ignore. They start sending updates with late fees added etc and my wife tells me to deal with it. So I call ups and ask them wtf is up with these crazy fees. Come to find out the sender indicated value of item as 1000usd etc. I tell them that is nuts cuz the item was toast and had marginal if any value when shipped. They say sender has to revise at original ship location and customs will send refund on difference once i pay invoice. Sender is apparently unreachable... Of course Im not paying this cuz it's BS to deliver a package with 350$ in hidden undisclosed fees. They will eventually refer this to a collection agency which will threaten to mess up my credit rating etc but since I own my house and don't borrow to buy anything they hv nothin to leverage! But the lesson is if you make a xborder transaction make sure you and sender agree on what value will be indicated on the item as these xborder fees can be very large. Free trade my ass! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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