V11 - known issues and their status

[Zopper]

This is to summarise all the (potential) weak points of V11 we have seen so far (before the real 2nd batch) and whether they were addressed as the main thread is kinda messy for this. I'm including also the one-off issues like the cutout so we can be sure they are just that - a case of a bad luck that is not reported by others. Tell me if I missed something - it's my best effort to put things together as I remember and from what I could find, but the thread is too long to read all again and the Inmotion Telegram channel is even worse.

I'll try to keep this post up to date as new info comes.

 

Issues that hit (or are likely to hit) many people

Saddle attachments breaking at the top side [maybe resolved since 3rd batch, with a DIY solution for 1st and 2nd batch]
Reported by many, frequent issue. Unknown what will it looks like in a batch 2, but adding more plastic around the hole is an obvious factory solution. Pretty sad weak point that will break easily, but on the other hand, it can be easily reinforced with some epoxy putty.

Inmotion said they plan to put a metal into the screw hole to reinforce it somehow. However, it will be a late 2nd batch at the earliest, so no definitive solution yet

Overtightened screws [resolved]
Reported by many at the start, but seems to be resolved by the end of the 1st batch.

Rusty bearings [resolved]
Reported by @Duf after he rode in a nice storm and then let the wheel sit wet for a week. Inmotion stopped production and replaced the bearings even on already built but not yet submitted wheels. (This caused some mess about what is and isn't a batch 2 wheel, as the batch 1 got split into 1A and 1B as I call them. At the moment of writing this post I don't know about any real batch 2 wheel out of factory).

Shock vent cover issues [likely resolved]
The covers on the bottom of the shocks could get loose and then fall off during a ride. They are screwed on the vent itself, so they can also transfer any hit directly to the shock and damage it. Current public opinion seems to be in favour of not using them at all and replacing them with something else, but opinions differ. Inmotion replaced them and ships a standard small black caps instead.
UPDATE: The second batch ships with a redesigned cover that seems to address everything - it has a very low profile and even direct hits to the cover should not damage the valve as the cover is firmly pressed against the metal around the valve. The only remaining question is whether it will hold firmly or if it can get lost. 

Pre-production/prototype firmware soft "bricking" [resolved?]
The pre-production V11 can be bricked during FW update if you don't lay the V11 on its side before firmware updating. You will have to disconnected the power from the control board to reset it. Shouldn't affect the production version (batch 1 and later).

Anti-spin handle button hard to press on some wheels [unknown, but easy to DIY fix]
A few people on the Telegram channel shared their issue with the anti-spin button on the handle underside being hard to press and other people confirmed that it varies between wheels. It can be easily fixed as only the button cover with three screws has to be removed (but you need a very short screwdriver to fit under the handle - e.g. a swappable bit head) and then you need a thin piece of plastic or something to "raise" the button.

Issues that were reported just once
These can be just one-offs and a bad luck.

A low speed cutout [unknown, maybe battery?]
A single report of a low speed cutout from @Senior Coffee. There is a thread for it (https://forum.electricunicycle.org/topic/19238-v11-cutout-a-look-inside-the-top-elec-box/). The exact cause is still unknown, but he measured 0 volts from one battery.

My opinion is that a bad battery should cause a lot of warnings and alarms (if it was the cause) but it is nice that the wheel can really ride on a single pack (so you can return home carefully, etc...) 

Marty's overheating hill failure of a prototype unit [unknown, maybe resolved]
@Marty Backe's prototype unit (pre-1st batch) died when Marty stopped the ride for a moment and put the wheel on it's side. I don't know the exact specs of the route he used, but other riders reported some pretty steep climbs they did multiple times. @Jpd did some ~900 meters (3.000 feet) height gain over 30 minutes at average speed roughly 14 km/h (9mph) up and then down. There were reports of way higher temperatures handled just fine by the wheel than what Marty had. Inmotion claims that this was already resolved in the production version without providing specifics or any analysis of Marty's wheel. Later they added more explanation (in the official Telegram channel):

Quote

Compared with the prototype, We have greatly improved the PCB design and the cooling system on the production unit. The maximum temperature for the control board is 150°C, for mosfet is 90°C, which has been tested for many times. As for Marty's prototype, it has been used by group of Youtubers. It will be hard to tell the real reason that burnt the wheel.

My opinion: Given that the batch 1 wheels are managing hills just fine, I'm kinda inclined to believe that this is no longer an issue. Inmotion's quick reply can be an educated guess based on having a good idea what happened, perhaps even hitting the same issue before within their own tests. But we have to wait longer for a definitive answer.

Hsiang's crash [unknown, but probably just an accident]
@Hsiang  got thrown off the wheel, which then rode for a moment free of rider (trying to go home? ) and hit a thick steel fender on a parked truck probably at ~20mph (~30 km/h). The wheel is nonfunctional and looks badly (a shattered handle, a pedal ripped off...). Batteries are just fine though. We are waiting for Hsiang to open it up and assess the internal damage as the "nonfunctional" could be simply caused by the cutoff handle-button missing. His video about the accident: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7i1CrO1I1I. Cause is not clear, Hsiang himself thinks it was a tire defect. 
A small update: it seems Hsiang had much higher pressure in shocks than most of other riders. It's possible that with lower pressure, he wouldn't be thrown up so much, if it wasn't the tire's fault.

Uphill cutoff and damage [unknown]
@mrelwood's V11 died in the middle of a short but steep climb. He "kind of expected that the wheel will overload, overlean, slip or cut-off," but the headlamp broke off when the wheel hit the ground and it doesn't want to turn on anymore. No mosfet damage, though (no short-circruited wires, etc).

PCB failure with balancing still working [unknown]
This is from a video on the Telegram channel (by PET Urban Mobility). Their V11 with about 100 km usage got into some weird state. Lights are off, not Bluetooth, no battery status on the headlamp, just a one red LED signalling some error. But it still balances itself.

 

Edits

• 17th August:
  • I removed the "charging issue" section as I can't find any source for this. It was probably just my bad memory or mix-up with some other wheel.
  • Inmotion said what they change about the cracking saddle attachments and some changes in the PCB since preproduction model (Marty's failure).
  • Added mrelwood's and PET Urban Mobility's issue.
  • Changed formatting a bit and split it into repeated and one-offs.
  • Updated the shock valve issue with new info about 2nd batch.
• 18th August:
  • Update to the saddle attachments issue.
• 20th August:
  • Anti-spin button hard to press on some wheels

Edited August 20, 2020 by Zopper
see changelog

[Unventor]

Valve caps are now shipped as normal valves caps (small black plastic caps). This happened on my V11 from 2nd half of 1st batch (first 100 units).

Now Liam from Inmotion is working on an official update chart that he is posting once ready here on the forum. 

Note: there is a huge difference between a quality issue and 1 unit report incident. Most of the above are 1 unit incidents.yet Inmotion have addressed these shiftly as the occurred. 

I really think this needs to be kept in mind.

 

Edited August 15, 2020 by Unventor

[Zopper]

33 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Valve caps are now shipped as normal valves caps (small black plastic caps). This happened on my V11 from 2nd half of 1st batch (first 100 units).

Thanks, updated.

33 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Now Liam from Inmotion is working on an official update chart that he is posting once ready here on the forum. 

I know, but it's not there yet and not all of those things may get on it.
 

33 minutes ago, Unventor said:

Note: there is a huge difference between a quality issue and 1 unit report incident. Most of the above are 1 unit incidents.yet Inmotion have addressed these shiftly as the occurred. 

I really think this needs to be kept in mind.

I agree 100% and I'm still eagerly awaiting my wheel. But I felt a place with all those issues and their current status is missing. It seems to me that there tend to appear some rumours from people who don't watch the main thread and Telegram channel daily, who heard something, but didn't get the whole picture or didn't notice that it is already resolved. All in all, this still looks like a pretty nice release of a new wheel. Especially considering all the new stuff Inmotion did. The worst issue so far are the bearings and this was resolved almost immediately.

[Vagrant Sneaker]

7 hours ago, Zopper said:

Charging issues [unknown]
Reported by some. Inmotion confirmed low quality of chargers and a manufacturer switch. I'm not sure if 1B batch is already fixed or it still have the original charger.

Does anyone have a picture of the current bad charger and/or the one they switched it too? My V11 is from batch 1B. I did noticed that the charger gets EXTREMELY HOT. 

[onizukagto]

Can we add the issue to the first post, just to show we are, aware of them and Inmotion said they are "resolved"? 

1. Pre-production firmware soft "bricking" (resolved?) 

You can brick the pre-production V11 if you do not lay the V11 on its side before firmware updating. 

You will have to disconnected the power from the control board to reset it. 

 

2. Pre-production brickingI n hot weather (resolved?) 

When rode in hot weather, laying down the v11 on it side will brick it. 

 

[Zopper]

3 hours ago, onizukagto said:

Can we add the issue to the first post, just to show we are, aware of them and Inmotion said they are "resolved"? 

1. Pre-production firmware soft "bricking" (resolved?) 

You can brick the pre-production V11 if you do not lay the V11 on its side before firmware updating. 

You will have to disconnected the power from the control board to reset it. 

 

2. Pre-production brickingI n hot weather (resolved?) 

When rode in hot weather, laying down the v11 on it side will brick it. 

 

Thanks. I added the first. The second is already there (Marty's hill)

[eucinsea]

Anyone know if they plan on doing anything about v1 bearings? I live in Seattle and ride in the rain 70% of the year. :| 

[onizukagto]

43 minutes ago, prasket said:

Anyone know if they plan on doing anything about v1 bearings? I live in Seattle and ride in the rain 70% of the year. :| 

It's fixed. They will ship out free replacement bearings to 1st batch owners and all 2nd batch will have new bearing 

[mrelwood]

Regarding Hsiang’s accident, Duf mentioned in his recent video that in a conversation Hsiang has tools of riding with pressures 150/50 psi at the time of the incident. I weigh much more than Hsiang, and 150 psi is the absolute highest I can go to have a reasonable sag. I actually run the whole if yesterday with 130 psi.

Being launched off at a bump at a decent speed may not be all that surprising with those pressures.

[Marty Backe]

On 8/15/2020 at 12:55 AM, Unventor said:

Valve caps are now shipped as normal valves caps (small black plastic caps). This happened on my V11 from 2nd half of 1st batch (first 100 units).

Now Liam from Inmotion is working on an official update chart that he is posting once ready here on the forum. 

Note: there is a huge difference between a quality issue and 1 unit report incident. Most of the above are 1 unit incidents.yet Inmotion have addressed these shiftly as the occurred. 

I really think this needs to be kept in mind.

 

If the normal valve caps (small black plastic caps) extend below the shock housing (like they do on the pre-production units) that's going to be a big problem. Hopefully the production wheels have the valves recessed further up in the shock assembly.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Regarding Hsiang’s accident, Duf mentioned in his recent video that in a conversation Hsiang has tools of riding with pressures 150/50 psi at the time of the incident. I weigh much more than Hsiang, and 150 psi is the absolute highest I can go to have a reasonable sag. I actually run the whole if yesterday with 130 psi.

Being launched off at a bump at a decent speed may not be all that surprising with those pressures.

I agree. I think he was running it at a crazy high pressure. The 230+ pounds guys testing my V11 said ~120psi was about perfect.

[Marty Backe]

Nice list of issues.

Personally, if I decide to get a V11 I'm going to wait 4+ months to see if they are reliable. My failure for unknown reasons is concerning to me and when Inmotion says it's fixed because a different control board is used, that is meaningless to me.

Unless they know exactly why my board failed they can't say the issue is fixed with the production boards.

[Zopper]

On 8/15/2020 at 5:38 PM, Vagrant Sneaker said:

Does anyone have a picture of the current bad charger and/or the one they switched it too? My V11 is from batch 1B. I did noticed that the charger gets EXTREMELY HOT. 

I removed the charging issue section, it was probably just my bad memory when compiling the list. It seems that there is nothing particularly wrong with it and I can't find any sources for that. Mea culpa.

[onizukagto]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

 My failure for unknown reasons is concerning to me and when Inmotion says it's fixed because a different control board is used, that is meaningless to me.

Unless they know exactly why my board failed they can't say the issue is fixed with the production boards.

I agree.

Until I see someone reproduce your actions and tackle a steep slope/hill successfully and/or Inmotion posts some evidence to backup the claim, I would list this issue as unresolved. 

[StuartL]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Personally, if I decide to get a V11 I'm going to wait 4+ months to see if they are reliable. My failure for unknown reasons is concerning to me and when Inmotion says it's fixed because a different control board is used, that is meaningless to me.

Unless they know exactly why my board failed they can't say the issue is fixed with the production boards.

Based upon the symptoms in your excellent video I would say that the BLDC drive MOSFETs have shorted.  This is a common failure mode for MOSFETs that suffer too much current and/or overheat.  The resulting short circuit is then likely to have damaged other components on the control board and/or blown fuses (not all of which are field-replaceable).

Noting that the rest of this post is speculative:

BLDC drive circuits usually have each coil driven by an H-bridge so that the coil can be driven in either polarity.  Each half of the H-bridge comprises a pair of MOSFETs, one connected to one side of the coil and the positive supply and one connected to the same side of the coil and the negative supply.

The drive logic should NEVER turn both MOSFETs on at the same time.  Doing so causes the main power supply to be shorted across both MOSFETs and would cause instantaneous failure of at least one of them, causing it to permanently short-circuit.

Then, with shorted MOSFETs, the back EMF of turning the wheel through short-circuit gives you high resistance, essentially electronic braking.  Disconnecting the wheel from the board disconnects the shorted MOSFETs and the wheel turns freely.

My guess is that there was a hardware or software fault that Inmotion have discovered in the pre-production control boards that can momentarily turn on both of these MOSFETs at the same time.  Based upon your video I think it occurred during your power-on where you saw a brief flicker of lights before it died.

Edited August 17, 2020 by StuartL

[Zopper]

3 hours ago, Marty Backe said:

Nice list of issues.

Personally, if I decide to get a V11 I'm going to wait 4+ months to see if they are reliable. My failure for unknown reasons is concerning to me and when Inmotion says it's fixed because a different control board is used, that is meaningless to me.

Unless they know exactly why my board failed they can't say the issue is fixed with the production boards.

Liam did explain it a bit more today. Pretty much what I expected. Whether it really helped is to be seen yet.

[Unventor]

47 minutes ago, onizukagto said:

I agree.

Until I see someone reproduce your actions and tackle a steep slope/hill successfully and/or Inmotion posts some evidence to backup the claim, I would list this issue as unresolved. 

Liam wrote this on telegram today when discussing Marty's incident. 

Quote:

Compared with the prototype, We have greatly improved the PCB design and the cooling system on the production unit. The maximum temperature for the control board is 150°C, for mosfet is 90°C, which has been tested for many times. As for Marty's prototype, it has been used by group of Youtubers. It will be hard to tell the real reason that burnt the wheel. And we can't ship it back any EUC to our office due to the airline restriction.

[Bill Kolk]

We also have this from Liam regarding the saddle screws:

Quote

We will bring in new solution to fix the issue. It will be a switch from plastic holes to metal holes.

So this seems like a next batch (3rd?) fix, as the 2nd one is reported that have started shipping.

[Chriull]

2 minutes ago, Unventor said:

The maximum temperature for the control board is 150°C, for mosfet is 90°C, which has been tested for many times

Seems to be a typo? I'd assume 150°C for mosfet and 90°C for control board? As most used capacitors on the board are just rated for 105°C. The plasitc parts could slowly get soft at such temperatures, too?

150°C for the mosfets seem a bit high? There is not too much margin until the 175° maximum junction temperature...

Good TO-220 cases have some max thermal resistance of 0.5 °K/W from junction to case. At least as much again for the thermal resistance over the insulation pad to the heatsink and the same again to the temperature sensor... Leaving not really much power dissipation as safety margin with this 25°C ...

Somehow i'm used to design guidelines for semiconductors like these mosfets with a maximum junction temperature of 125°C. But could easily be that with the space restricitions in EUCs this is just not possible to reach. 

Same for the measured control board maximum temperature of 90°C - the capacitors on the PCB are "only" rated for 105°C (normally). Giving just a margin of 15°C - imho nothing, especially regarding the delayed and inhomogeneous temperature distribution...

[Zopper]

37 minutes ago, Bill Kolk said:

We also have this from Liam regarding the saddle screws:

So this seems like a next batch (3rd?) fix, as the 2nd one is reported that have started shipping.

Can be both, their expressions are sometimes difficult to parse. I asked for clarification.

[onizukagto]

1 hour ago, Bill Kolk said:

We also have this from Liam regarding the saddle screws:

So this seems like a next batch (3rd?) fix, as the 2nd one is reported that have started shipping.

Metal holes? I'm gonna guess its metal inserts at the screw fixtures to reinforce the polymer. Don't have to make an entirely new mold for it 

[Vagrant Sneaker]

4 hours ago, Bill Kolk said:

We will bring in new solution to fix the issue. It will be a switch from plastic holes to metal holes.

I hope they intend to ship these to the first adopters that have them broken. 

[Zopper]

3 minutes ago, Vagrant Sneaker said:

I hope they intend to ship these to the first adopters that have them broken. 

I guess that this might need to go via regular warranty process. It breaks, you tell it to your dealer, and they send you a replacement. 

[Marty Backe]

5 hours ago, Zopper said:

Liam did explain it a bit more today. Pretty much what I expected. Whether it really helped is to be seen yet.

Many wheels have been tested by a lot of YouTuber's and they haven't failed.

Does Inmotion really need the entire wheel for failure analysis? Of course not. All they need is the control board because that's what failed. I think they have little interest in wanting to know what happened based on the fact that the production control board is "greatly improved".

I've going to take some quality pictures of my failed board and someday I may get to see a production board. I'll be curious to see how different it looks.

I'm beginning to think that maybe I'll stop accepting any pre-production units. Perhaps it's a waste of my time.

[Chriull]

23 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I'm beginning to think that maybe I'll stop accepting any pre-production units. Perhaps it's a waste of my time.

But it's great for your endurance! 

scnr