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About Points of Contact with the EUC (Feet, Ankles, Calves)


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On 8/25/2020 at 10:40 AM, houseofjob said:

It's actually less work, not more! You are just shifting your gravity weight under you between feet, taking advantage of the wheel + your fall ability / gravity left-right.

I am doing a wider stance on my Z10 now, based on your advice here and an older Z10 wobbles thread. I’ve tried different stances and a wheel hugging stance was causing me loads of foot pain really early on in my riding. It sucked. That seems to have disappeared with a wide stance. 

So with the wide stance I guess you don’t use power pads right? I assume you’d need to have more of a wheel hugger stance in order to take advantage of those. 

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3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Also, while technically safer than full superman lean, power pads still put your body in a lean position where the force is all going forward, and any unseen bump will compromise you into potential faceplant.

On the contrary, safety is the most under appreciated benefit of powerpads. When I had them on my MSX I literally could not get thrown off from a bump or pothole. The part of the pad that sticks out prevents your legs from moving forward from a bump, and prevents you from falling off the front from leaning too hard because you have something there to stop you. 

That’s what makes them such a good choice for off road—off road is really just a series of bumps and potholes. 

I have not ridden a suspension wheel but I can’t imagine suspension doing more for safety then proper powerpads can. Which is why I hate them... ugh such a simple contraption with such enormous benefits without the need for skill. 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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Power pads are a slippery slope tradeoff and a bit like playing blackjack--the more they lock you in, the more they enable you to maximize the acceleration and braking potential of the wheel (which in a proverbial vacuum would be good things), but with the tradeoff of potentially much worse crash/fail states. So the more extreme the former, the more extreme the latter--until you suddenly 'bust'. There may be a sweet spot somewhere in the middle worth arguing for, but a large swath of the community has already gone far past that in the blind pursuit of increased power delivery.

Edited by AtlasP
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2 hours ago, Planemo said:

The main issue I find is lack of knee (suspension) movement because as soon as you are using the front of the pad for anything that requires it, you lose knee movement.

That’s exactly why I moved to special jump pads instead of power pads. My jump pads have a power pad section at the ankle height only, keeping my knee suspension fully functional, yet keeping my feet in their place in jumps and bumps.

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23 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

That’s exactly why I moved to special jump pads instead of power pads.

I follow your line of thinking with that design, but I cant see how you are really changing the issue? Given that when riding, an ankle also gives the same range of motion as your knee...

For example, if I do up the velcro strap on my high tops, I can feel the resistance in range straight away, to the point where I leave it totally loose for this reason.

The only way I could see a jump pad working is if it covered the forefoot area. Anything around/above the ankle will be restricting fore/aft movement surely?

Whatever works for you though!

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7 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

On the contrary, safety is the most under appreciated benefit of powerpads. When I had them on my MSX I literally could not get thrown off from a bump or pothole. The part of the pad that sticks out prevents your legs from moving forward from a bump, and prevents you from falling off the front from leaning too hard because you have something there to stop you. 

That’s what makes them such a good choice for off road—off road is really just a series of bumps and potholes. 

I have not ridden a suspension wheel but I can’t imagine suspension doing more for safety then proper powerpads can. Which is why I hate them... ugh such a simple contraption with such enormous benefits without the need for skill. 

Interesting.

I was actually thinking more of a scenario where the wheel cutsout from overlean/overpower on a bump, where either way, you’re gonna go down.

Also, I forgot that there are several versions of these pad thingy’s. I imagine you’re talking about the EU guys version that is a harder protruding surface? Cuz I’ve seen a ton of riders here in NYC with the big ginormous soft Russian fluff pillow types or Chinese imitation, and I’ve definitely seen those guys still bail using them while hitting a pothole.
 

5 hours ago, Planemo said:

For hardcore offroaders I guess the ability to get up some monster hills outweighs the loss of knee movement when using pads, but for me, where the majority of my riding is relatively flat, I see no purpose for them.

Exactly. In NYC, like the UK, the majority of my riding is flats, so I tend to see only negatives with any pads.

Edited by houseofjob
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2 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Interesting.

I was actually thinking more of a scenario where the wheel cutsout from overlean/overpower on a bump, where either way, you’re gonna go down.

Also, I forgot that there are several versions of these pad thingy’s. I imagine you’re talking about the EU guys version that is a harder protruding surface? Cuz I’ve seen a ton of riders here in NYC with the big ginormous soft Russian fluff pillow types or Chinese imitation, and I’ve definitely seen those guys still bail using them while hitting a pothole.

Yeah those Russian soft pads I see NYC riders use are not “real” powerpads. They’re more like soft pads.
 

A real powerpad is like the ones the Russians use, see Fantomas videos. Or kuji videos. And wonder why they can fly down flights of stairs without any problems. Because it locks you in to the wheel. Literally no bump can crash you it’s crazy, but the feeling of restricting my Sagittal movement of my shins and knees was killing me. Not to mention you can only ride like a zombie locked legs so you don’t even look cool lol. 

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14 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

A real powerpad is like the ones the Russians use, see Fantomas videos. Or kuji videos. And wonder why they can fly down flights of stairs without any problems. Because it locks you in to the wheel. Literally no bump can crash you it’s crazy, but the feeling of restricting my Sagittal movement of my shins and knees was killing me.

I think you may have highlighted the top use case - truly madcap riders like Fantomas may actually sacrifice knee movement in order to lock themselves to the wheel. I guess it may be preferable to lose shock absorption in some cases if it simply means you wont fall or be thrown from the wheel. Just crash through the bumps and hope for the best! I can see the theory working tbh!

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1 hour ago, Planemo said:

I think you may have highlighted the top use case - truly madcap riders like Fantomas may actually sacrifice knee movement in order to lock themselves to the wheel. I guess it may be preferable to lose shock absorption in some cases if it simply means you wont fall or be thrown from the wheel. Just crash through the bumps and hope for the best! I can see the theory working tbh!

The purpose of bending your knees is plain and simply so you don’t get thrown off the wheel. The proper powerpads allow you to get away with only the most minimal amount of knee bend because it prevents you from getting thrown forward off the wheel from stairs, bumps, holes etc. So in a way, it IS the shock absorption. 
 

The sacrifice of knee/shin movement is only for aesthetic purposes. I like looking cool on the wheel and deep hinges for braking and accelerating looks the part. Aggressive powerpads make you a straight legged zombie locked in to the wheel. 
 

Edited by Darrell Wesh
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21 hours ago, Planemo said:

I follow your line of thinking with that design, but I cant see how you are really changing the issue? Given that when riding, an ankle also gives the same range of motion as your knee...

Not sure how one would officially measure “range of movement“, but if the pads quite easily give in .5”, having that much being pressed down by the ankle allows many times the movement at the knee, allowing for quite a deep crouch.

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I think all I'm trying to say is that if one requires a 30 deg bend in the knee, then the ankle (and therefore shin) has to bend by the same degree. To retain the same COG of course, which is what we want, unless you want to speed up or slow down.

I appreciate that the further up from the ankle you place the pad, the more the distances travelled by the shin. My point was that the lower you make the pad, the less of a 'power pad' it is, and the more of an 'ankle lock' it becomes.

Power pads restrict the ability to bend the knees beyond a certain point due to locking the shins. The lower you place the pad the less they work as power pads and work more as a retention device.

Jut re-read that and I'm not sure if I am getting my point across :wacko::D

Looking at your setup, it seems you are kinda halfway between the two, which I am sure works well for you :)

That said, if they are purely for jumping I would have expected the pads to be even lower - literally just on top of the shoe. Anything that would allow you to lift the wheel with your feet but not hinder shin movement.

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I loved the 16X and having only my feet as the points of contact. I did have some scary moments and it wasn't really a fast wheel.

The MSX pretty much forced me to contact the pads and I had to ride quite bowlegged and with a duck footed stance to clear them. It became a problem when going off-road because I want to be able to tilt the wheel side to side. Same with the MSP. I would love to file the pedals down but it's Monika's wheel so I will leave it.

Now on the Nikola I am using Franks pads. They are thin in the middle but very grippy, and the front and rear of them are far enough away to not be in the way unless I am at 35mph+ (or climbing a steep hill or hitting a bump and bending my knees). At these speeds I am crouching anyway and I will just put my leg on the outside of the front of the pad (I chose then 3cm ones).

Besides not falling off the front when hitting obstacles at speed I also don't get launched upwards as much. So the pads help me keep my heels down.
And I still get to bend my knees as much as I want. They are not a total crutch the way I use them... and I definitely feel much safer than on the standard Nik pads. 
They limit forward movement so that I don't have infinite forward movement. For the good and the bad... because if you do hit a bump at very high speed and hit the pads with force it will torque the wheel... and we know how that can end.

TLDR I like to ride loose and bendy. :roflmao:

 

 

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9 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:


The MSX pretty much forced me to contact the pads and I had to ride quite bowlegged and with a duck footed stance to clear them. 

That's just cos you are a short-arse though :D

9 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

and the front and rear of them are far enough away to not be in the way unless I am at 35mph+ 

And that's the issue I have. You have a very similar general crouch to myself actually - add the same stance but with a bit more lean (for high speeds) and my knees are virtually off the front of the MSX anyway, making pads somewhat irrelevant which is what I think you allure to by saying 'I will just put my leg on the outside of the front of the pad'.

I understand that having pads allows more torque transfer without lean...but then we are back to locking the shins again...and therefore no knee movement for suspension...it goes round and round hence I don't bother with anything other than 'streamlined' pads like the original EUC Guy ones. I think I could even live with the stock GW ones tbh :)

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1 minute ago, Planemo said:

That's just cos you are a short-arse though :D

Haha 100% true! Good catch. :lol:

1 minute ago, Planemo said:

And that's the issue I have. You have a very similar general crouch to myself actually - add the same stance but with a bit more lean (for high speeds) and my knees are virtually off the front of the MSX anyway, making pads somewhat irrelevant which is what I think you allure to by saying 'I will just put my leg on the outside of the front of the pad'.

Correct. And the outside of the pad is still grippy. At high speed I stagger so one knee is more forward than the other.
On the 100v MSX I would probably be off the front like you say depending on how much intent it gets to get it moving.

1 minute ago, Planemo said:

I understand that having pads allows more torque transfer without lean...but then we are back to locking the shins again...and therefore no knee movement for suspension...it goes round and round hence I don't bother with anything other than 'streamlined' pads like the original EUC Guy ones. I think I could even live with the stock GW ones tbh :)

This happens on those superduper mega pads that are hard. I tried my friend's config and hated it. Also told him that he is basically locked to straight legged and that is an accident waiting to happen.

On the clips above I am using Frank's pads and they allow me to apply a bit more torque with less forward lean, less risk of getting up onto the balls of my feet and still keep my bendy knees.

The pads are there when I need them (before I even know I need them) but aren't when I don't. Simply because when falling forward off the wheel they are there to stop me.
Of course this becomes a bit scary when riding a non padded wheel. I almost fell off the front of Petra's wheel trying to get it from 40kmh to 60kmh. Kinda laughed at myself at being stupid... she was not amused though. Riding them back to back I can definitely say that I feel safer on my config. However she does say that my config feels restricted.

To make matters worse we were off-roading yesterday and she bonked up a huge rock and then torqued up it. She was on the hard mode. I did the same (soft mode) and the pedals yielded so I had to bail. Tried again.. pedals yielded, tire slipped, bailed, banged the wheel. I hate myself.

On the MSX (slow 84v) I calibrated the pedals with a 3 degree forward tilt. Then it all felt right (that damn creeping tilt-back after 35 kmh).
I have made the config for it being a trick wheel though.. for speed I would need 2cm more space in front and the thinner version of the pads.
If I am riding fast on the 84v MSX then I have chosen the wrong wheel. 12000km so far every extra km feels like a gift from the heavens haha.

Ironically where pads are not forward enough for me they are too forward for Monika. She is more of a straight legged rider but at least not stiff legged. And she does not ride loose at all.

 

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15 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

Simply because when falling forward off the wheel they are there to stop me.

Weirdly I've never felt that I am falling off the front of the wheel. Like you though, my knees are in front of my pads (virtually identical to EUC Guy ones) when giving it some so it's not like they are gonna help me anyway!

15 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

On the MSX (slow 84v) I calibrated the pedals with a 3 degree forward tilt. Then it all felt right (that damn creeping tilt-back after 35 kmh).

Man I wish I could accurately check this. I was adamant that my 100v MSX tilts back at higher speeds but I'm just not sure. The reason being, if there is no wind (or a tailwind) I can do 35+mph without feeling any tiltback at all. It only *feels* like theres tiltback when riding fast into a headwind so I am inclined to think it's just because of the extra lean required, increasing my ankle angle. I know mrelwood says the MSX tilts back slightly as well but I just don't get why I cant feel it under all conditions. I wish I had a way of measuring pedal angle whilst riding to confirm it 100%. Neither have I seen anything official from Gotway regarding a slight tiltback at speed.

15 minutes ago, Mike Sacristan said:

If I am riding fast on the 84v MSX then I have chosen the wrong wheel. 12000km so far every extra km feels like a gift from the heavens haha.

Man you have so got your moneys worth out of that wheel :roflmao:

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9 hours ago, Planemo said:

Weirdly I've never felt that I am falling off the front of the wheel. Like you though, my knees are in front of my pads (virtually identical to EUC Guy ones) when giving it some so it's not like they are gonna help me anyway!

Man I wish I could accurately check this. I was adamant that my 100v MSX tilts back at higher speeds but I'm just not sure. The reason being, if there is no wind (or a tailwind) I can do 35+mph without feeling any tiltback at all. It only *feels* like theres tiltback when riding fast into a headwind so I am inclined to think it's just because of the extra lean required, increasing my ankle angle. I know mrelwood says the MSX tilts back slightly as well but I just don't get why I cant feel it under all conditions. I wish I had a way of measuring pedal angle whilst riding to confirm it 100%. Neither have I seen anything official from Gotway regarding a slight tiltback at speed.

One day I am going to tape my phone to my pedals and put it on level measurement and record the screen!

9 hours ago, Planemo said:

Man you have so got your moneys worth out of that wheel :roflmao:

Haha I sure have! Now I have lent it to a friend while he is waiting for his MSP high speed. Then when it comes back I will jump the hell out of it at skate parks.
Still on the original tyre also lmao. 

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I was gonna say. With my dads power pads on his MSP i feel super restricted. I hate the idea of leaning into them to get to a higher speed, so i just opt to not ride as fast. Hitting bumps feels uncomfortable, because i bend my knees and they bump into the pads. On my wheel i have the ankle/foot locked design. I can still get out of it if i need to bail, and although its not as secure as the bigass russian powerpads, they have still saved me when ive missed a big hole or bump. When i need to torque up a hill (slowly) i can lean in with the lower part of my foot, or squeeze the grippy neoprene i put on the side of the wheel to lean it. But i feel much more in control having my knees and upper body free to move back and forth. 

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On 9/3/2020 at 12:12 PM, Planemo said:

My point was that the lower you make the pad, the less of a 'power pad' it is, and the more of an 'ankle lock' it becomes.

That is true. They actually need just a bit more work for pure jumping, but the “ankle angle limiter” works very well for me (in combination with the neoprene on the saddle). Not a pure powerpad, but provides a suitable amount of shin restriction without the discussed pure powerpad issues. :lol:

 

On 9/4/2020 at 2:05 AM, Mike Sacristan said:

One day I am going to tape my phone to my pedals and put it on level measurement and record the screen!

I was just thinking about that when reading your reply! It could be more prevalent on the 84V than the 100V MSX though.

 Switching to the V11 has made me notice things on other wheels I hadn’t noticed before. For example 18XL and 16X both have a strong low speed (< 10km/h) vibration and rumble, and the mentioned MSX tilt-back I had already become accustomed to.

On 9/3/2020 at 3:45 PM, Mike Sacristan said:

12000km so far

It is a wheel that can easily do that in a few years! I reached somewhere like 13500km. :cheers: But that’s over now! :clap3:

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  • 2 weeks later...

I understand @houseofjob reluctance to produce a video claiming to be the “way” position yourself on a wheel. There are soo many variables. For example the wheel, shell, size and pedal angles. I ride a KS18XL and the pedals are rather level. I also have a size 14 sneaker, which makes all of the traditional suggestions tricky/painful to perform. 
 

That said, maybe just post a video of your feet/legs while riding without any instruction?

ps I’m still convinced the solution for me is XXXL custom pedals. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Blicky Te️la said:

I understand @houseofjob reluctance to produce a video claiming to be the “way” position yourself on a wheel. There are soo many variables. For example the wheel, shell, size and pedal angles. I ride a KS18XL and the pedals are rather level. I also have a size 14 sneaker, which makes all of the traditional suggestions tricky/painful to perform. 

That said, maybe just post a video of your feet/legs while riding without any instruction?

ps I’m still convinced the solution for me is XXXL custom pedals. 

Well, I DO want to make some videos on this, but at this point, my overly-perfectionist brain has too much data to get out, aka I'm inside my head a bit on this. I don't want to make empty promises, but come high or hell water, I will have something out *smh

Also, if your pedals are not an appropriate size relative to the length of your foot, of course you need proper length pedals, that's regardless of any technique applied (and actually, you should be even more advantaged when you do get them, as longer feet means longer torque arm / better force). Have you hit up any of the Russian metal worker guys like EUC You on IG? (EUC You doesn't seem to list any KS stuff, but maybe he can provide you a lead(?))

 

49 minutes ago, Blicky Te️la said:

That said, maybe just post a video of your feet/legs while riding without any instruction?

Oh, believe you me, I've shot several stuff already, but on-camera, it's super had to really see without dialogue or overlays. It would need explanation, maybe some off-wheel dry land stuff to show the body motion exaggerated. Again, don't wanna make empty promises, but I'm slowly working on it.

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On 9/19/2020 at 12:03 AM, houseofjob said:

 

Also, if your pedals are not an appropriate size relative to the length of your foot, of course you need proper length pedals, that's regardless of any technique applied (and actually, you should be even more advantaged when you do get them, as longer feet means longer torque arm / better force). Have you hit up any of the Russian metal worker guys like EUC You on IG? (EUC You doesn't seem to list any KS stuff, but maybe he can provide you a lead(?))

I don’t mean to thread jack (but this seems like contributing variable)  Is there an ideal foot to pedal ratio? I’ve tried in a few ways to query riders on feet size. Is it possible many don’t have size 14 shoe lol. 
 

 BTW I reached out to EUC You per your suggestion but he said he is too swamped with orders right now to consider a new, longer pedal. 

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