About Points of Contact with the EUC (Feet, Ankles, Calves)

[WebDev]

As a new rider, I'm learning that there are different ways to form a point of contact between yourself and the EUC.  At first, I was creating as much contact as possible, locking my calves to the V8F's side pads, and my entire foot against the lower side, thereby creating the strongest grip hold I could on the wheel.  This helped me to control the wheel much better when learning.

Now that I've improved a bit, I'm wondering what the "proper" contact points should be .  Does an experienced rider only make contact with the top part of the EUC when turning?  What about the feet?  Should your feet be as close to the EUC as possible?  Or maybe just the heel?  Or should the feet not be pressed against the EUC at all?

I feel like one contact point on each side is necessary at all times.  But maybe that's because I'm still new.  Would anyone with experience care to share their thoughts?

[houseofjob]

There is no "proper" anything for EUC technique, only better or worse solutions in relation to each other.

The more I've progressed in my 5-going-on-6 years of EUC riding, I ended up contacting the wheel body almost never; I only unintentionally slightly brush the wheel body with my leg on turns. My feet never touch the wheel altogether. Really, the only time my leg purposely contacts the wheel body is the brief push off from my shin to free mount the wheel.

Feet-wise, the balls of my feet are square and centered on the pedal fronts, but my heels alternate lifting and swinging out as I rock and leverage the wheel body for acceleration (heels out is for clearing my leg from hitting the wheel body so I can dip the wheel sharper for more leverage).

Disclaimer: you're not gonna get a lot of responses like mine, as the majority of EUC riders seem to be wheel huggers, but my way I can tell you has solved my foot pain, speed wobbles, and torque acceleration in my riding, as I've experimented and landed on said technique over the years, subconsciously utilizing and modifying many years of skiing.

Edited August 14, 2020 by houseofjob

[WebDev]

I cannot imagine riding without any side contact with the EUC at my skill level, but I will strive to eliminate that as I improve.  What was your main point of contact before you got enough skills to ride without any?

Also, what about off-road, bumpy surfaces?  I feel like locking the calves to the wheel is absolutely necessary in these situations.  Would you agree?  Or is it possible to make the balance corrections without contact?

Edited August 14, 2020 by WebDev

[mrelwood]

There isn’t a single “proper method” that everyone should aim for. Our physiques, sizes and wheel models vary enough to warrant a range of ideal techniques. There are a few common aspects though.

- Loose or no grip against the shell. Squeezing or hugging the shell limits your movement, prevents tilt-turning altogether, makes your feet tired quickly, causes instability on banked or grooves surfaces, and makes speed wobbles worse. (Edit: And also locks your safety suspension, your knees, in place!)

- Precise front to back foot positioning. it’s common for new riders to stand too far back, which causes feet fatigue, and loss of control especially on inclines. Place your heels and balls of your feet equally far from the pedal edges for a better balance. (Some riders use offset positioning, which I recommend leaving for later.)
 

Toes in or out depends on your natural posture and shoe size relative to the wheel model. Just remember that the point is to be relaxed. Stand on solid ground, spread your legs slightly, and keeping the heels down and ankles relaxed bend your knees ever so slightly. That’s the position you should aim for. A position that makes you feel natural, like you could stand there for hours. Because eventually you will!

Edited August 14, 2020 by mrelwood

[WebDev]

I understand that there is no "proper" method per se.  I guess I'm just trying to find out what has worked best for everyone else.  What is most comfortable?  What causes the least fatigue?  Most importantly, what gives you the highest sense of control?

@mrelwood

I just learned about the foot positioning you mentioned.  You're absolutely right too. I've had my feet too far back ever since I started.  I was actually trying to control my speed by pressing down on the balls or heel of my feet instead of just shifting my body weight back and forth.  Doh!

I totally feel you on that last point.  As a new rider it's not very easy for me to reposition my feet as I'm moving, though I am getting better at that.  Getting the right foot position seems imperative to maintaining comfort and control.

Edited August 14, 2020 by WebDev

[houseofjob]

3 minutes ago, WebDev said:

I cannot imagine riding without any side contact with the EUC at my skill level, but I will strive to eliminate that as I improve.  What was your main point of contact before you got enough skills to ride without any?

Honestly, I don't remember it's been so long since then. I wanna say I probably rode like the typical new rider, more narrowed stance, feet in 11's and in, but also my first wheels in the Ninebot One E+ and KS18A were wheels that tend to give you a semi-wider stance to begin with, due to the thick pads on the E+, and overall wider body (for that time) on the KS18A.

 

3 minutes ago, WebDev said:

Also, what about off-road, bumpy surfaces?  I feel like locking the calves to the wheel is absolutely necessary in these situations.  Would you agree?  Or is it possible to make the balance corrections without contact?

For one-off bumps, I brace for the bump with bent knees, weight emphasis on the balls of the feet, then take the bump so that I lift my heels and let the wheel jump the bump independently of me slightly jumping off the wheel itself. Then I reach one leg at a time, landing ball of feet by ball of feet (most bumps I don't separate that much from the wheel, but there are the bigger ones that I occasionally briefly do).

 

Really I would say play around. A common mistake I see guys make is not utilizing the balls of their feet enough, as that is the really basis of balance and agility in the human body to begin with, and guys who absolutely must do the same thing on both legs / both feet, which is actually a detriment IMHO.

What led me down to how I ride today is playing / messing around, and doing alternating one ball of foot, other foot more heel, then switch.

I do realize that gripping the wheel body with your feet, both or just one, provides a sense of security, but you should realize that, like manual unicycles, you don't really need to be touching the body at all, as it's about foot vs foot weight balance/difference.

[houseofjob]

4 minutes ago, WebDev said:

I was actually trying to control my speed through pressing down on the balls or heel of my feet instead of just shifting my body wait back and forth.  Doh!

Actually, this is exactly how I ride EUC, and IMHO it's better, as you don't end up doing these dangerous superman leans that can lead to faceplanting. But this is my opinion I guess.

 

4 minutes ago, WebDev said:

I totally feel you on that last point.  As a new rider it's not very easy for me to reposition my feet as I'm moving, though I am getting better at that.  Getting the right foot position seems imperative to maintaining comfort and control.

Being able to readjust your feet while riding is so so invaluable in my experience. 

And really it's not as hard as you think: you just lift one foot's heel while the other foot is on, pivoting that foot to the desired position, then drop that first foot heel, and do the same with the other. Still having that pressure from the ball of the heel lifted foot is what counters the normal other foot's weight, keeping you balanced on the wheel

Edited August 14, 2020 by houseofjob

[WebDev]

6 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Actually, this is exactly how I ride EUC, and IMHO it's better, as you don't end up doing these dangerous superman leans that can lead to faceplanting. But this is my opinion I guess.

Oh, now that is quite interesting!  I can see now that there are very distinct styles between different riders.  Perhaps a balance between the two might be optimal for adequate safety and swift acceleration.  I guess it all comes down to what you're trying to accomplish and your own style.

2 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Being able to readjust your feet while riding is so so invaluable in my experience. 

And really it's not as hard as you think: you just lift one foot's heel while the other foot is on, pivoting that foot to the desired position, then drop that first foot heel, and do the same with the other. Still having that pressure from the ball of the heel lifted foot is what counters the normal other foot's weight, keeping you balanced on the wheel

That makes sense.  Much better than lifting the foot completely off the pedal!

 

[Scottie]

18 hours ago, houseofjob said:

There is no "proper" anything for EUC technique, only better or worse solutions in relation to each other.

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

There isn’t a single “proper method” that everyone should aim for. Our physiques, sizes and wheel models vary enough to warrant a range of ideal techniques.

As a 7 month rider just now becoming very slightly experienced, I agree with both of these riders. I was right where you are now ... what feels like yesterday. In the beginning we are just trying to survive and learn at the same time. Like you, I gripped the wheel body with calves and had my feet tight up against the shell of the 16X, which seemed and felt right for that wheel. But as my feet learned what to do and the EUC muscles got in shape, there became less and less need for wheel hugging. Now I just briefly nudge the top of the wheel on one side or the other occasionally if I feel the need, usually coming out of an aggressive turn while goofing around.

 

18 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Squeezing or hugging the shell limits your movement, prevents tilt-turning altogether,

17 hours ago, houseofjob said:

I do realize that gripping the wheel body with your feet, both or just one, provides a sense of security, but you should realize that, like manual unicycles, you don't really need to be touching the body at all, as it's about foot vs foot weight balance/difference.

I guess I want to second third this. Tilt-turning is a must for good maneuverability on any wheel that I've ridden. As you gain experience, your feet may naturally start moving away from the shell over time which allows for better tilt-turning. 

Power pads are something else. I haven't tried them yet, but my imagination tells me that the experienced riders only grip or knee the pads in anticipation of using them to torque the wheel.

 

 

Edited August 14, 2020 by Scottie

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

Love to hear someone speak to these “loose” leg placements etc when it comes to breaking or hard breaking.

[shellac]

On 8/13/2020 at 9:57 PM, houseofjob said:

There is no "proper" anything for EUC technique, only better or worse solutions in relation to each other.

The more I've progressed in my 5-going-on-6 years of EUC riding, I ended up contacting the wheel body almost never; I only unintentionally slightly brush the wheel body with my leg on turns. My feet never touch the wheel altogether. Really, the only time my leg purposely contacts the wheel body is the brief push off from my shin to free mount the wheel.

As a pretty new rider I’m curious about this. I’ve found that riding with a wide stance, not contacting the wheel much, does indeed seem much more comfortable and natural, problem is that I can get bad wobbles if I’m not at least slightly bracing the z10 with the right calf, much like what @Hsiang describes when he talks about his riding stance. 

So you’re able to brake hard and handle bumps with no wobbles while not contacting the wheel? Is there some secret to doing this successfully? Crouching down halfway on the wheel seems to be a particularly wobble inducing position. 

[houseofjob]

4 minutes ago, shellac said:

Crouching down halfway on the wheel seems to be a particularly wobble inducing position. 

Then don't crouch LOL.

4 minutes ago, shellac said:

So you’re able to brake hard and handle bumps with no wobbles while not contacting the wheel? Is there some secret to doing this successfully? Crouching down halfway on the wheel seems to be a particularly wobble inducing position. 

"Braking hard", one prolonged tug in an unwavering straight line is not something I subscribe to, this just means to me you didn't measure out stopping distance like any other vehicle.

The wide stance thing is not really both feet fully wide + wheel perfectly erect & upright. It's about operating the EUC always at at least a slight angle, which tilts the pedals and gives the leverage that you are trying to find hugging the fully upright and erect wheel body. Doing this in alternation may look like "carving", but when doing this for the purpose of leverage-stabilized acceleration and braking, it isn't really true carving (although, yes, you can carve if so desired). 

So back to the wheel stance. What needs to be wide is your ankles/heels (toes can be more in, even with the pedal), as that is where your body weight is focused over, over your legs and heels. Like most sport, they all tell you to have your feet shoulder-width apart, and EUC is no different. The only caveat to this is that only one foot needs to be wide at a time, since I am operating the wheel at an angle. So if the left foot is down on the left pedal, that pedal leaning down to the ground, left leg straight, then my other foot will naturally adopt a knee bend and weight will focus on the ball of the right foot to the point my right foot heel will lift up, all while my body is slightly over the right side of the wheel body midline.

I might be going a bit deep here, considering your newness to EUC. You can take these concepts to mind, but for now, I would suggest learning how to operate your wheel in a manner not doing the same thing with both feet, wheel body perfectly erect and upright. I personally started down this unconventional path by playing around with accelerations where I would put weight emphasis on the front ball of one foot, heel of the other, then switch. Also, it's integral that you learn how to use your balance on the front balls of your feet on EUC, even to the point that your heels lift up, and they don't have to both lift up at the same time (which is better).

You mentioned wobbles, and with the above, operating the EUC always on a slight angle, there is no wobbles when done right, because having that wheel body lean angle provides a kind of vibration dampening. 

And the whole contacting the wheel idea is a bit flawed IMHO, because then, you are relying on muscle power, which can be inconsistent. My way above, is all relying on wheel body tilt angles, rocking the wheel body side-to-side, and just adjusting natural downward weight gravity, no muscle.

As for bumps, this is another arena where you should be comfortable being on the balls of your feet. When I encounter bumps, still with no contacting the wheel body, I bend both knees (which many riders recommend), but also, I shift being on the balls of both my feet as a second "shock" to my first "shock" in my bent knees. So when I enter into the bump, my knee bend takes the main shock, while being on the balls of my feet, heeling up and off (if need be), takes any secondary shock. And I do this, again, with the wheel body at a slight angle, so I can unevenly take the shock, one leg, then the other leg, because for bigger bumps, I will try to let the wheel jump first, while my body is still contacting the pedals but no significant weight is on the wheel, then after the wheel lands, I will spot one leg, then the other, for the "landing".

Lastly for braking, old ski habit, I try to break in an S-curve, "pumping" the brake force when the wheel becomes perpendicular to the forward movement vector (since momentum is moving forward, but the wheel is perpendicular, the friction of the tire aids in braking). But this is all possible because I can carve on a dime in this wide, alternating heel lift stance.

Sorry this was a bit long-winded. Not sure if this really answered anything 

 

[mrelwood]

39 minutes ago, shellac said:

So you’re able to brake hard and handle bumps with no wobbles while not contacting the wheel? Is there some secret to doing this successfully? Crouching down halfway on the wheel seems to be a particularly wobble inducing position. 

If you get wobbles while crouching, you can easily try different techniques to kill the wobble without being in danger of losing control. So that's good! 

Try this: While crouching, concentrate on your ankles and heels. Keep your ankles relaxed, and your heels flat down on the pedals. Keep your body up from your knees, thighs, and mid body muscles. If you succesfully relax your lower legs like that, the crouching wobbles won't start at all. The target is to make it automatic. Then you shouldn't have much problems exploring various foot positionings and techniques.

[Darrell Wesh]

On 8/21/2020 at 9:50 PM, houseofjob said:

The only caveat to this is that only one foot needs to be wide at a time, since I am operating the wheel at an angle. So if the left foot is down on the left pedal, that pedal leaning down to the ground, left leg straight, then my other foot will naturally adopt a knee bend and weight will focus on the ball of the right foot to the point my right foot heel will lift up, all while my body is slightly over the right side of the wheel body midline.

So basically one leg is more straight and the other leg more bent at all times? Almost feels like one leg is doing more work at any time 

[WebDev]

@houseofjob Thanks for all the details you've provided in this thread.  I've been practicing every day and my technique has evolved tremendously.  I can relate to everything you're saying now.  It feels so liberating to ride without contact points.  There's no uncomfortable pressure anywhere, I can feel much more relaxed, and the sensation I get now when riding is amazing.

Now that I'm free of needing to feel the wheel against me, I think it's allowed me to try different stances.  I noticed today that when I was just gliding along at top speed, I had one leg kind of locked straight pushing down on the ball of the foot, and the other leg kind of bent and relaxed more, just as you described, and it felt good.  This is opposed to always keeping my legs in sync with each other.  This has helped me to learn to carve a little bit too, by alternating which foot is erect and which is bent.

 

 

Edited August 25, 2020 by WebDev

[seage]

Im always trying to imagine @houseofjob's explanations, then go back to wanting that damn video! Lmao. I personally dont have as much experience as these other guys, but for me i do a mix of most things mentioned. Depending on the terrain i change my stance. At night on crazy ass roads where you cant see shit, im in a low stance, legs wide, not gripping the body. I have pads that keep my feet kinda locked in, so im cheating with that extra confidence, but the wheel takes impacts and its separate from my body. If i grip the wheel on bumpy terrain, it just travels right through my body and murders me. Im not about death right now. I like jumping and whatnot, so when i decide im gonna hop over some stuff or up a curb i quickly reposition my feet to facehugger position and then hop up, then do a little heel/toe movement to get my feet back out to their old positon. Whenever i jump i naturally tighten up, so i've put surfpad on my wheel to keep my feet from going in too closely so i dont lose balance. One of the main issues i had after a hop was that i'd be TOO close to the body and that would throw me and id have to step off as the wheel would dip hard left or right. So yeah, different stance for different things. I will say, i do stand a bit closer than i should when im nervous (crazy winds) or being lazy and standing up straight, and my feet start to die. So when i do widen my stance, my foot fatigue goes away rather quickly

[Darrell Wesh]

2 hours ago, seage said:

that damn video!

Come on @houseofjob!!! I finally stopped being lazy and finished my video. Prolly will upload it sometime today 

[houseofjob]

10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

So basically one leg is more straight and the other leg more bent at all times? Almost feels like one leg is doing more work at any time 

Yes, exactly!

It's:

1. One leg straight, heel / whole foot down as the leverage foot
2. Other leg knee bent, heel up as the "accelerator foot"
3. Wheel body at an angle, not erect / upright, to create leverage angles, "front accelerator pedal" is sticking up at a non-flat leverage angle.

It's actually less work, not more! You are just shifting your gravity weight under you between feet, taking advantage of the wheel + your fall ability / gravity left-right. The concept IMHO is no different from how runners (at least long distance(?)) do not run straight upright over their heels, they should have the balls of their feet slightly behind their center of gravity line so that the fully body line is slightly tilted at a diagonal with head forward, so you are taking advantage of the fall gravity propelling you forward while you push off at the balls of your feet. Also, like running or cycling, you are using one foot at a time in alternation, so equal work really, same for what I describe.

 

9 hours ago, WebDev said:

@houseofjob Thanks for all the details you've provided in this thread.  I've been practicing every day and my technique has evolved tremendously.  I can relate to everything you're saying now.  It feels so liberating to ride without contact points.  There's no uncomfortable pressure anywhere, I can feel much more relaxed, and the sensation I get now when riding is amazing.

Now that I'm free of needing to feel the wheel against me, I think it's allowed me to try different stances.  I noticed today that when I was just gliding along at top speed, I had one leg kind of locked straight pushing down on the ball of the foot, and the other leg kind of bent and relaxed more, just as you described, and it felt good.  This is opposed to always keeping my legs in sync with each other.  This has helped me to learn to carve a little bit too, by alternating which foot is erect and which is bent.

Nice!

You are way ahead of even the purported "experienced" of EUC riders I'd say then!

Kinda jelly, cuz when I started many moons ago, there was literally no material, even a proper "learn how to ride" video, I had to spend 4 years of trial & error to arrive where I'm at now. maybe that's subconsciously why I'm not in a hurry to roll out this technique video haha

Now, just play around with it; make the wheel bend to you, not the other way around!

 

9 hours ago, seage said:

Im always trying to imagine @houseofjob's explanations, then go back to wanting that damn video! Lmao. 

LOL you're not the only one that gets inside their heads too much!

I have others on me to make this thing, and all I can say is I will still try, but don't wanna make broken promises. I have like way too much to say about this topic, which leads to perfection paralysis for me, so at some point, I gotta say F it and just make an imperfect video I guess *smh.

 

9 hours ago, seage said:

I like jumping and whatnot, so when i decide im gonna hop over some stuff or up a curb i quickly reposition my feet to facehugger position and then hop up, then do a little heel/toe movement to get my feet back out to their old positon. Whenever i jump i naturally tighten up, so i've put surfpad on my wheel to keep my feet from going in too closely so i dont lose balance.

Yeah, jumping is the only scenario where my wide feet (really heels) thing goes out the window, as you need to be able to tug the wheel. But being able to be balls of your feet / "tiptoes", you can easily switch back & forth from both positionings Dorothy Wizard of Oz style! 

 

6 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Come on @houseofjob!!! I finally stopped being lazy and finished my video. Prolly will upload it sometime today 

Nice! Looking forward to watching!

 

[Darrell Wesh]

47 minutes ago, houseofjob said:

Yes, exactly!

It's:

1. One leg straight, heel / whole foot down as the leverage foot
2. Other leg knee bent, heel up as the "accelerator foot"
3. Wheel body at an angle, not erect / upright, to create leverage angles, "front accelerator pedal" is sticking up at a non-flat leverage angle.

It's actually less work, not more! You are just shifting your gravity weight under you between feet, taking advantage of the wheel + your fall ability / gravity left-right. The concept IMHO is no different from how runners (at least long distance(?)) do not run straight upright over their heels, they should have the balls of their feet slightly behind their center of gravity line so that the fully body line is slightly tilted at a diagonal with head forward, so you are taking advantage of the fall gravity propelling you forward while you push off at the balls of your feet. Also, like running or cycling, you are using one foot at a time in alternation, so equal work really, same for what I describe.

Well; I guess we ride the same then. That’s how I ride. My body is sideways and never straight because of this 

[Dgar]

I'm a very new rider with only about 150 miles on my wheel. I learned on my first day that tilting the wheel is what helped me turn and keep my balance so I have always had a little looser stance. Also, a couple of times I actually accidentally pressed the sides of my feet up against the body when I mounted and my feet really got sore fast so I always made sure they are not pressed against the body any more. I have been trying to learn to ride with one foot and have been having a very hard time with it. Now I wonder if it is because my foot and legs aren't pressed right up against the body to give me better leverage. Also, I have seen people jump over obstacles and it's hard to grip the wheel to lift when you have a wider stance.

[houseofjob]

32 minutes ago, Dgar said:

Now I wonder if it is because my foot and legs aren't pressed right up against the body to give me better leverage. Also, I have seen people jump over obstacles and it's hard to grip the wheel to lift when you have a wider stance.

Regardless what you're trying to do on EUC, you should work on being able to change your feet positioning mid-ride, as it is IMHO invaluable, and not that hard! All it takes is lifting up the heel of the re-position foot, maintaining the balance weight at the ball of that foot, while twisting and smudging around at the ball to reposition.

I've said this before somewhere recently, but the wide thing, your foot only needs to be wide IMHo from the heels where your body weight is over, the toe area can be more in. Thus, re-position pivoting at the balls of your feet, you can instantly go from wide to narrow for whatever your purpose is. And really, both don't need to be wide at the same time.

For one-legging, it's most stable if you have some part of your leg pushing on the shell to counter your downward gravity on the pedal, since the other leg/foot is no longer on the other pedal to counterbalance. If I one-leg (which is really only when I free mount the wheel and then lazily mount the other foot late-ish), I'm on the ball of my mount foot, heel up, and facing the knee/toe into the wheel body with the idea of making it perpendicular to the wheel body, though it will never be perfectly perpendicular, all as my shin is contacting the wheel body, wheel body angling mount pedal slightly up.

 

[seage]

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

maybe that's subconsciously why I'm not in a hurry to roll out this technique video haha

You son of a- 

 

3 hours ago, houseofjob said:

LOL you're not the only one that gets inside their heads too much!

I have others on me to make this thing, and all I can say is I will still try, but don't wanna make broken promises. I have like way too much to say about this topic, which leads to perfection paralysis for me, so at some point, I gotta say F it and just make an imperfect video I guess *smh.

 

Just shoot me some shaky cell phone videos and send em over telegram for my own greedy indulgence. Then later, I'll edit the bloody thing, lol. 

 

10 hours ago, Darrell Wesh said:

Come on @houseofjob!!! I finally stopped being lazy and finished my video. Prolly will upload it sometime today 

Cant wait to see this! 

[houseofjob]

34 minutes ago, seage said:

You son of a- 

 

34 minutes ago, seage said:

Just shoot me some shaky cell phone videos and send em over telegram for my own greedy indulgence. Then later, I'll edit the bloody thing, lol. 

 

[Blicky Te⚡️la]

7 hours ago, houseofjob said:

Regardless what you're trying to do on EUC, you should work on being able to change your feet positioning mid-ride, as it is IMHO invaluable, and not that hard! All it takes is lifting up the heel of the re-position foot, maintaining the balance weight at the ball of that foot, while twisting and smudging around at the ball to reposition.

 

 

I do this, better with my right foot than the left. But when my foot comes all the way off, I hear what sounds like a rubbing sound. Which I imagine to be the wheel and the shell.

[houseofjob]

1 minute ago, Blicky Te⚡️la said:

I do this, better with my right foot than the left. But when my foot comes all the way off, I hear what sounds like a rubbing sound. Which I imagine to be the wheel and the shell.

That's typically a cracked inner shell around the seams in the plastic contacting the pedal hangars, I'd open it up and give a check.