WARNING KINGSONG PRODUCTS

[FinRider]

10 minutes ago, davinche said:

Do we have any definitions on what "legally purchased" means? While the transaction with aliexpress might be legitimate, is the seller legally allowed to sell the wheel to an international buyer?

To my understanding of international trade law, they are legally allowed to sell products as long as the associated standards for said device has been met, like the CE mark for example.

Contractually it might not be allowed, however that would be an issue between Kingsong and their distributors.

Kingsong can terminate their distribution agreement with anyone if they violate the terms of the distribution agreement. But I would like to refer to my previous post regarding the financial math in selling these systems. Kingsong makes probably the same amount for every EUC sold, be it to a US distributor, EU distributor or a domestic chinese distributor.

[FinRider]

11 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

Exactly! I sent @Jack King Song a PM with almost identical sentiments:

“Remove this onus from faithful KS owners and unlock their wheels, then simply move forward with a precise warning about future purchases  from suppliers that are not supported by KS. 
 

 

This is a very flawed argument as it can not be applied to for example second hand systems. You can not put the onus on the buyer of a 2nd hand unit to even be aware of such a policy, that if he (god forbids) dares to download the official kingsong app that it would render his EUC inoperable.

Not to mention that the greedy aliexpress sellers would never state this and would never take responsibility for this.

The ONLY reason one would buy from an Ali seller would be because you want to save some of your hard earned money. However, the savings comes from circumventing the import duty and taxes applicable to said product. If you buy a product directly from Ali, you may not be the committing tax fraud but you certainly are condoning it... so in essence I really do not feel bad for people when this happens...(not applicable to all circumstances, eg buying 2nd hand etc)

BUT, as stated multiple times, the practice of manipulating someone elses property after the fact (sale) is for sure morally wrong and reprehensible, if not outright unlawful.

The flipside of the coin is that this can all be avoided by buying locally. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by FinRider

[alex5454]

hi guys, give me some advice i will never buy a king Song product again in my life.  but now I have an s18 on the way where the Chinese seller tells me to rest assured that the wheel will not be blocked, should I trust?

[Antec]

3 minutes ago, alex5454 said:

hi guys, give me some advice i will never buy a king Song product again in my life.  but now I have an s18 on the way where the Chinese seller tells me to rest assured that the wheel will not be blocked, should I trust?

Only time will tell. You could return it for a refund as soon as it arrives.it , maybe at your cost though. Depends how passionate you are about Boycotting kingsong 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Antec

[davinche]

22 minutes ago, FinRider said:

BUT, as stated multiple times, the practice of manipulating someone elses property after the fact (sale) is for sure morally wrong and reprehensible, if not outright unlawful.

Is this always true though? What if the device you bought was stolen?

[FinRider]

6 minutes ago, davinche said:

Is this always true though? What if the device you bought was stolen?

i don’t know the US laws on this but here your purchase will be confiscated if it was found out that it was stolen. Still does not give the right to the manufacturer to tamper with the device.

this can not be compared to an owner wiping an iphone remotely if they notice it being stolen as they would be considered the actual owner of the device.

Edited August 12, 2020 by FinRider

[Chriull]

21 minutes ago, alex5454 said:

 but now I have an s18 on the way where the Chinese seller tells me to rest assured that the wheel will not be blocked, should I trust?

For 99.9% not. Afaik assume only if they found a way to change the serial number - which should not be easily possible.

Edit: if there were an easy way people would not be upset ...

18 minutes ago, Antec said:

You could return it for a refund as soon as it arrives.it , maybe at your cost though

That's imho the main point - who bears the return shipment costs? Do you have to send it back if it does not work?

There are numerous reports of customers getting sweet talked with hollow promises and put pressure on with the return shipment costs...

Edited August 12, 2020 by Chriull

[alex5454]

9 minutes ago, Antec said:

Only time will tell. You could return it for a refund as soon as it arrives.it , maybe at your cost though. Depends how passionate you are about Boycotting kingsong 

i swear on the dearest thing i will only buy gotway from now on.  I paid my money.  king song doesn't have to sell wheels anymore.  this policy is wrong without ifs without buts.

[meriwald]

2 hours ago, RockyTop said:

No more KS app for me. The S18 might be my last KS wheel. 

Even when you are not using official app it doesn’t secure you from a ban as bt connection is open and anyone can connect to your wheel and “update” it with that malware from KingSong

it can by done not intentionally just someone connects to your wheel instead of their own 

[FinRider]

26 minutes ago, alex5454 said:

hi guys, give me some advice i will never buy a king Song product again in my life.  but now I have an s18 on the way where the Chinese seller tells me to rest assured that the wheel will not be blocked, should I trust?

My S18 will be delivered tomorrow (bought from eu seller) so i do not know if you can use a 3rd party app to unlock the wheel from its transport mode. Maybe someone who has received theirs can chime in, bc as far as i know only connecting the official ks app will geo-lock it.

If using the official app is the only way to unlock transport mode, then maybe using a vpn with location set to china when launching the app would circumvent the issue?

it would be worth a try!

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by FinRider

[FinRider]

4 minutes ago, meriwald said:

Even when you are not using official app it doesn’t secure you from a ban as bt connection is open and anyone can connect to your wheel and “update” it with that malware from KingSong

it can by done not intentionally just someone connects to your wheel instead of their own 

Doesn’t euc world allow you to set a BT password?

[Seba]

2 minutes ago, FinRider said:

Doesn’t euc world allow you to set a BT password?

Not in Chinese wheel  But as long as you just have an EUC World connected, it will keep BT connection and prevent any other device from connecting.

[Marty Backe]

2 hours ago, EUC_GiO said:

inThink of it like the Apple iPhone and products. Currently there are arguments all over and debating the right to repair because Apple is somehow finding out that consumers would rather go the cheapest d-i-y route than get billed for over $500 for a battery replacement cost. If everyone who has a KS EUC and aware of the regional/national/international locking mechanism in place perhaps they can send out an email or inform KS bout the negative impact its sending to consumers. Then again, I also agree with KS trying to lockout the competition from stealing their products. Yes, it might look the same wheel, similar board etc... but if you are going over 20-30+km/m an hour and the wheel gave out and you got knocked down and a few brain cells came spilling out of your nose, will you blame KS for the faulty product or the AliExpress seller?  Yes, the prices are ludicrous but this is a niche hobby. You got under 5(taking a wild guess) known euc manufacturers that are competing on a handful of consumers who are willing to throw away $1,000 to $2,000+ CDN/US dollars for the latest gadget and probably wont be discarding it anytime soon when the next model comes out, which is every year. I guess in the end, you have to consider warranty, safety, reliability, price etc..

Also, for those unaware of how AliExpress/Alibaba sellers state of mind are, here is a summary, "WE DONT GIVE A FLYING F ABOUT YOUR ISSUES." Ive ordered numerous items from $50 to $2,000 cost. I also run a small photography biz on the side and when sht dont work, I thank Paypal that they exist. The AliExpress/Alibaba warranty is sht and it caters more to China than international. So for those wondering or getting pissed as to why China is not being the same or similar to any other international businesses out there......Why? What makes you think that they should follow the rest of the world? China alone can make profit all on their own without having to deal with international consumers. They have over 3+billion people vs under 1000k? EUC International EUC riders..lol. Plus in the end, its their product. If all EUC manufacturers decided to follow KS locking mechanism then tough luck. Either take the bullet or get a car. Tesla already doing it and consumers still buy Elon's product. 

The last I checked, China has 1.4 billion people. The vast majority of them are dirt poor by our standards and couldn't afford an EUC, assuming they had enough electricity to charge one 

My understanding is most of their sales come from outside of China. Otherwise, why would they emblazon all of their wheels with English names?

[meriwald]

6 minutes ago, FinRider said:

My S18 will be delivered tomorrow (bought from eu seller) so i do not know if you can use a 3rd party app to unlock the wheel from its transport mode. Maybe someone who has received theirs can chime in, bc as far as i know only connecting the official ks app will geo-lock it.

If using the official app is the only way to unlock transport mode, thenmaybe using a vpn with location set to china when launching the app would circumvent the issue?

it would be worth a try!

 

DM me I’ll give you a solution how to unlock the wheel if it will get locked . It’s free, I know the way, just don’t want to post here so EvilKingSong doesn’t change their tactics )

[RockyTop]

12 minutes ago, meriwald said:

Even when you are not using official app it doesn’t secure you from a ban as bt connection is open and anyone can connect to your wheel and “update” it with that malware from KingSong

it can by done not intentionally just someone connects to your wheel instead of their own 

Good point!! I still live in an area that has very few EUCs. As @Seba said, if you connect with another app the KS app can’t. The problem with that is just like the XL the S18 keeps dropping the BT connection every few minutes. So next time I am in the wheel I will put a switch on the BT power. Only turn it on when I need to set something up. (Almost Never!!) Last I checked KS still used the Arduino style BT with just 4 pins. 

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

Dear magical coding elves of the internet,

Please create some KS firmware mods without these lockout issues..

Also add bonus features.

Thanks in advance, forever hopeful, 

Dan

 

[Meulebeest]

Apart form the legal aspect which is grey [even if one might think it is more B&W], and even the pricing discussion and differences, all seem to distract from the essence.

What we predicted is here, this was such a blunder decision / policy which will have ramifications to the brand, and if it drags on long enough, will require huge repair effort.
If people start voicing this far and wide enough, boycott, "cancel" in the age of cancel culture  ...

Less sales, less sustainability of the launched model(s), so even the "regular" sales channels purchasers would feel consequences.

If not remediated swiftly: (too) bad for KIngSong, a win and valuable lesson for other vendors ?

[RockyTop]

8 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

3 hours ago, EUC_GiO said:

 

The last I checked, China has 1.4 billion people. The vast majority of them are dirt poor by our standards and couldn't afford an EUC, assuming they had enough electricity to charge one 

It seems to be getting worse. COVID, Dam breaks, Floods, Crop damage, Live stock diseases, Food shortages, Earthquakes, tornadoes,  Economic instability, Tariff wars, Political splits, acts of war against, - Taiwan, Japan, Russia, India, Philippines, Expulsion of non Chinese Citizens ............ 

I don’t have a lot of trust in Chinese companies right now. China is desperate. I feel for the people of China but I am not a fan of their government. 

[fryman]

@Jack King Song Please communicate to management that there has to be a better way to manage your distributors.  There is no way to communicate to every person looking to purchase an EUC not to purchase from a particular distributor or their wheel will not operate. Please remember, the distributor broke the agreement, not the new owner of the EUC. 

[FinRider]

10 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

It seems to be getting worse. COVID, Dam breaks, Floods, Crop damage, Live stock diseases, Food shortages, Earthquakes, tornadoes,  Economic instability, Tariff wars, Political splits, acts of war against, - Taiwan, Japan, Russia, India, Philippines, Expulsion of non Chinese Citizens ............ 

I don’t have a lot of trust in Chinese companies right now. China is desperate. I feel for the people of China but I am not a fan of their government. 

 

[Rehab1]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

This is a very flawed argument as it can not be applied to for example second hand systems.

I believe everyone would like @Jack King Song to return to this discussion at some point so I’m attempting to be diplomatic and assist current owners that have been burdened with bricked wheels.

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

2 hours ago, Meulebeest said:

Hmm, don't forget to read the whole post, not just snippets of the last conversation.

See previous posts in this thread, in the beginning some were convinced, like you, it was a rumor ... (we are past that stage)

So we requested an official statement and @Jack King Song was kind enough to reply:

Quote

derp derp KS wont help if theres a "P"

And he also stated the following, seen the [heated]  passionate statements:

Quote

I'll lay some beatdown on the boss for the poor souls dragging their bricks out of a field 10miles from their home because KS hate your PPs

So build up momentum that he can carry weight in the discussion... (like a post and/or Follow the subject)

So are they actively bricking wheels through their app or not? Seems mean. maybe their app/units sucks (and is bricking wheels regardless on updates/connection) and they just don't wana help anyone with EU PPs coz they didn't ask with chinese PP.

[FinRider]

6 minutes ago, Rehab1 said:

I believe everyone would like @Jack King Song to return to this discussion at some point so I’m attempting to be diplomatic and assist current owners that have been burdened with bricked wheels.

I belive all of us would like to see these actions to be taken by kingsong. I just hope Jack has success in communicating the importance of this to his upper management

1. Stop bricking wheels (geo-locking)
2. Retract the policy that wheels sold in china will be bricked in the future
3. get their distributors in line. If they have restrictions on which territories they can sell to, force them to adhere to it. If not, revoke their distributor status.
4. Did I mention STOP bricking wheels

i know KS believes that they are doing the international distributors a favor by ”forcing” the consumers to buy locally (or rather forcing them to not buy from china directly), but the end result will be a massive boycot of KS wheels, which in the end hurts the international distributors as there are no more customers willing to trust their brand. Remember though that most of the international distributors carry other brands as well, so they will survive... kingsong are the ones who have the most to loose with this existing practice & policy... and they are the only ones who can fix it... very easily, by simply following my 5 step plan outlined above.

[Marty Backe]

33 minutes ago, RockyTop said:

It seems to be getting worse. COVID, Dam breaks, Floods, Crop damage, Live stock diseases, Food shortages, Earthquakes, tornadoes,  Economic instability, Tariff wars, Political splits, acts of war against, - Taiwan, Japan, Russia, India, Philippines, Expulsion of non Chinese Citizens ............ 

I don’t have a lot of trust in Chinese companies right now. China is desperate. I feel for the people of China but I am not a fan of their government. 

The people? No problem. But the government? Yeah, it's a communist government that still honors probably the biggest mass murderer the world has ever seen - Mao

[.....]

3 hours ago, RockyTop said:

What if they make a mistake? What if they get mad because of trade wars? What if they go out of business and just want to cause trouble? What if you buy a wheel without being told the truth about where it came from? We worry about people stealing our wheel when KS can just brick all of them at any time. This will be calculated in All future purchases regardless of the outcome. 
I was already stranded once while on vacation. KS bricked my wheel when I turned on the app in the middle of a ride. The KS site and app were down for a month. 

No more KS app for me. The S18 might be my last KS wheel. 

I echo your sentiment. Tho IF my wheel had been bricked on vacation, I would have already avoided their company like the plague. Half the joy of my wheel is that it connects to bluetooth for music and eucw. It would be a shame if i had to disable the bluetooth physically, as I have to worry about a bricked wheel. I havent had the KS app installed in months. I dont care how many revisions they make, I dont trust it, now more than ever. Kingsong better do some damage control, or they will start to lose USA sales in droves. I know they are still selling them, but the niche group of euc riders can be smaller and more vocal than you would suspect. It won't take very many of our youtube friends with MASSIVE audiences, to initiate a boycott that would impact sales.

You better get on it JAck, as this shit storm has been brewing for a while and is only getting worse. I keep seeing posts about it on here and on facebook. With the reach of social media, this dirty practice won't go unnoticed for very long. Personally, I'm am more than ready to give another euc company a try. My brand loyalty and fondness for KS, grows weaker by the month. Quit selling wheels to these fucking resellers that are violating YOUR contracts, and quit taking it out on your customers.

And for you cheap bastards buying from ALI to save money. This is also YOUR fault and I have ZERO sympathy if you get a brick. I dont care if you think an euc costs too much. If you cant pony up to buy it from an authorized reseller, maybe you shouldnt fukn buy one, or look for used.  It aggravates me to no end, to see people focusing on the $$ while ignoring the greater impact. Probably the same people who wave at their neighbor while making sure to not patron his store because he has a markup that you can beat online. Pay the price, show some damn pride and none of this bullshit would be as bad as it is!

Edited August 12, 2020 by ShanesPlanet