WARNING KINGSONG PRODUCTS

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Antec said:

I do not know the ins and outs of the forum and who sponsors what

This forum has no sponsors whatsoever. It's a gift of the forum owner to the EUC community.

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but when will the Admin of this forum have a serious word with Kingsong Rep on here and the future of the promoting the brand on this forum?

Never. As every member here is stating his opinions without our interference, same is true for manufacturer representatives here. (...as long as it's not getting out of bounds or against the forum rules).

So the forum is not promoting any brand, but of course gives every manufacturer the possibility to communicate with the community. And of course promote themselves.

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We should not allow this malpratice to continue.

That's not our duty as admins. We are just bureaucratically keeping this forum as neutral platform running.

Of course all admins here are part of the EUC community and stating their own private opinion as _members_.

But this "forum" will not censor or agitate - it's setup from the founder as neutral communication platform. So this is not to be misused by admins to restrict any manufactuter or any other member just because "one does not like an opinion".

I'm not sure if i understood your post in every detail, but what i assume sent a shiver  down my spine...

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maybe as a collective we can get them to remove this nonsense policy, they don't quite realise how many sales they are going to lose after this.

As many members, of which also some happen to be admins, stated their opinion and whatever consequences they will personally take from this. KS sees and we'll see how they'll take this feedback.

[FinRider]

4 minutes ago, meriwald said:

There is no way you can justify 1300$ price difference with all those reasons 

Take a closer look at the calculations above.

There is not $1300 price difference. In the US the cost difference is currently $200 (this will change now that shipment through Hong Kong no longer will be able to  avoid the imposed 25% duty).

In Europe the real world difference is about €550, of which €270 is derived from duty + VAT, so the product is actually only only €280 more expensive.

[null]

I purchased my second 18xl Global version 1900€ including Tax and margins in Norway while you couldn’t get the same for less than 2500€ in France. Linked reference earlier in the thread.

Thats 600€ Difference for the same international wheel with the ~same western taxes and warranty.

This is why (some) French people buy from Ali. Ali sellers are making good margins as they not only sell the cheaper version, but also dodge local taxes. (Why you never get a bill of sale) I have no sympathy for them either.

edit: I believe we have two separate issues here:

- Kingsong bricking products that where bought from them with good money.

- The reason people would choose parallel import.

Edited August 12, 2020 by null

[meriwald]

12 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

Sorry for the delayed response, I've been trying to edit and videos that have also been heavily requested.

In short, due to internal changes we will NOT be unlocking wheels when they include the letter P at the end and are produced in 2020.

Example serial number:

KSS181D200810P006
The P indicates it's meant for the local Chinese-Mainland market. If you have bought a unit that has P and was recently purchased please contact your seller to return or open a dispute. 

 

If you have a wheel that is produced earlier than 2020 and does not include the letter P and the wheel is locked. 

PLEASE DM ME. 

 

I have too many notifications so even when I do come back to the forum I miss out accidentally on replying to some. If you need immediate support:
Direct Message us: https://www.facebook.com/kingsong.international/
Telegram Message me:  https://t.me/jackattack326

Telegram Chat: https://t.me/kingsonginternational

 

 

 

Is there any hardware/performance  or software difference between wheels “meant for Chinese market” or no?

what if person living in China takes the wheel abroad for travel, it will be banned?

can seller from AliExpress activate the wheel while it is in China and then send it ?

how does the app know if wheel is not in China? Is kingsong spying on their customer location?

[meriwald]

9 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Sorry but that is just ridiculous. In this very thread a community member bought a perfectly working KS wheel second hand, until it got remotely locked. “Shouldn’t have bought a P unit” is just ridiculous beyond comprehension. As if this KS’s arbitrary trickstery were or should be common knowledge when purchasing a second hand product. No, it’s an illegal move in many (if not all) countries KS does business in. “Don’t buy a KS if...” is easier and best remembered as just “Don’t by a KS.”

And who knows which letters they may add to this ban list in the future . 

 

[DjPanJan]

There are already 5 pages of pseudo arguments and quality opinions.

So let's at least acknowledge the core of the problem:
Unicycles: Kingsong, Gotway Inmotion neither can calibrate without application. This is the core of the problem! Why isn't it discussed in the discussion.
All bullshit blah blah blah they do it they don't do it I don't like it anymore.
The unicycle locks as soon as it works with the application, but it cannot be put into operation and used without the application, and something as critical as calibration is not possible without the application. It is blackmailing customers from Chinese manufacturers.

The core of the problem stems from the CCP of the Chinese Communist Party and the hysteria with which they need to control their citizens, and therefore they have the laws set as they should.
It is all just because of the totalitarian regime that has deviated from the ideas of communism in China. What the CCP represents has nothing to do with communism (in a good way). So the producers in China can't or don't blame anyone else in this area, they're just victims of a monstrous regime and trying to live as best they can and raise their children in peace and quiet. Sadly, for example, a "kingsong" company uses government surveillance tools to block the EUC to its financial advantage.
As the arguments above have fallen, no one is forcing anyone to buy KS and KS warns against buying from unauthorized sellers, I take it and approach this game.
I myself have ks16X from an official European distributor with a 24 month warranty, I wouldn't even buy another one. And I'm quite terrified of the possibility of backing my EUC at any time in the future. When I destroy / block the EUC from China because it became 1, some mistake 2, it will be intentional, for example, for allowing myself to question the "greatness" of the CCP party.
I own the Inmotion V10F and it bothered me that it was not possible to connect the application with an activated VPN when the inmotion app refused to connect to the server.

Now after several updates, the Inmotion app is no longer a problem and will allow connection via VPN. This is a beautiful example of how "undemocratically / non-freely" applications are created with an emphasis on monitoring and blocking the possibility of user anonymity, they are simply CCP-style applications. And it's up to the manufacturer how much it "tightens the screws" in the application.

This text is translated using google translate and I am not responsible for the illogicality of the text and misunderstanding of the reader.

 

[Meulebeest]

Currently there are a lot of people interested in this discussion, but it seems (also to my doing - mea culpa) we have a few topics intertwining :

• KingSong global pricing and various sales channels, where one of the channels is through Chinese resellers,
  and therefor consumers are directly impacted by the second bullet.
   
• KingSong Geo-locking wheels: the policy where KingSong lock EUC based on their Serial number (after a software update). Which to a lot of people is a no-go
  (apart from competition resellers maybe )

 

While we might discuss (to each their own opinion) on related threads, the KingSong Geolocking is according to me the biggest issue.
And the EUC community should reflect whether it wishes to support such a policy.

[meriwald]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

But this "forum" will not censor or agitate - it's setup from the founder as neutral communication platform. So this is not to be misused by admins to restrict any manufactuter or any other member just because "one does not like an opinion".

Respect for that , appreciate it

[Marty Backe]

1 hour ago, Meulebeest said:

Currently there are a lot of people interested in this discussion, but it seems (also to my doing - mea culpa) we have a few topics intertwining :

• KingSong global pricing and various sales channels, where one of the channels is through Chinese resellers,
  and therefor consumers are directly impacted by the second bullet.
   
• KingSong Geo-locking wheels: the policy where KingSong lock EUC based on their Serial number (after a software update). Which to a lot of people is a no-go
  (apart from competition resellers maybe )

 

While we might discuss (to each their own opinion) on related threads, the KingSong Geolocking is according to me the biggest issue.
And the EUC community should reflect whether it wishes to support such a policy.

Wow, 6-pages of heated debate and I was struggling to understand what it was all about.

I appreciate your simple post that wrapped up everything succinctly. It's the geo-locking 

[Meulebeest]

5 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

Wow, 6-pages of heated debate and I was struggling to understand what it was all about.

Haha, nice of you to join. We were wondering in an off-line discussion whether we would see some of our American stars of the EUC community.
As you guys are less impacted (currently) since most of you get your EUC's through ewheels.

The bad news is this geolocking policy (the practice of bricking KingSong wheels), the good news is that @Jack King Song is willing to escalate this at KingSong.
No outcome yet, but feel free to share your thoughts.

 

[.....]

Geo Locking is a poor idea in my opinion. Its almost enough of a sore spot for me, that I would choose to abandon the brand altogether. If I ever found my wheel bricked, I would be VERY angry. Even if it was a used wheel, I would expect it to work and I shouldnt have to track down its history. Its not a titled vehicle, nor do I want it to be. Even if my wheel got bricked and it was an easy task to have remedied, I'd sell it and not invest another dime in that company, so long as other options were out there.  Just a personal opinion is all.

[Marty Backe]

42 minutes ago, Meulebeest said:

Haha, nice of you to join. We were wondering in an off-line discussion whether we would see some of our American stars of the EUC community.
As you guys are less impacted (currently) since most of you get your EUC's through ewheels.

The bad news is this geolocking policy (the practice of bricking KingSong wheels), the good news is that @Jack King Song is willing to escalate this at KingSong.
No outcome yet, but feel free to share your thoughts.

 

As you say, we're not impacted. This is why many of us have appreciated the uncomplicated nature of Gotway wheels, with their simple apps that don't do much. And now Veteran that doesn't require an app to configure the wheel.

I hope it works out for you guys in the end 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Marty Backe

[.....]

1 minute ago, Marty Backe said:

As you say, we're not impacted. This is why many of us have appreciated the uncomplicated nature of Gotway wheels, with their simple apps that don't do much. And now Veteran that doesn't require and app to configure the wheel.

I hope it works out for you guys in the end 

You must be reading my mind. I was JUST thinking to myself... I really do like being able to update firmware, but hmmm. My mten just works and i need not worry. I'm starting to rethink my initial disappointment about it, and embrace the stable simplicity of it. With a sherman on the way, I hope to fully embrace the standalone nature of it, while enjoying eucw cuz I want, not because I need to.

[RockyTop]

While eWheels customers should not be affected, I do not like the fact that someone in China can turn my wheel off because they feel like it. I bought the wheel. It is mine now. F$&@ Off!!!  This does not give warm feeling of appreciation towards the brand name. I guess Kingsong  does not understand personal ownership. Kingsong app Deleted!! 
 

[Meulebeest]

43 minutes ago, Marty Backe said:

I hope it works out for you guys in the end 

Some of your subscribers hope so too  (includes me :-))

Edited August 12, 2020 by Meulebeest

[EUC_GiO]

inThink of it like the Apple iPhone and products. Currently there are arguments all over and debating the right to repair because Apple is somehow finding out that consumers would rather go the cheapest d-i-y route than get billed for over $500 for a battery replacement cost. If everyone who has a KS EUC and aware of the regional/national/international locking mechanism in place perhaps they can send out an email or inform KS bout the negative impact its sending to consumers. Then again, I also agree with KS trying to lockout the competition from stealing their products. Yes, it might look the same wheel, similar board etc... but if you are going over 20-30+km/m an hour and the wheel gave out and you got knocked down and a few brain cells came spilling out of your nose, will you blame KS for the faulty product or the AliExpress seller?  Yes, the prices are ludicrous but this is a niche hobby. You got under 5(taking a wild guess) known euc manufacturers that are competing on a handful of consumers who are willing to throw away $1,000 to $2,000+ CDN/US dollars for the latest gadget and probably wont be discarding it anytime soon when the next model comes out, which is every year. I guess in the end, you have to consider warranty, safety, reliability, price etc..

Also, for those unaware of how AliExpress/Alibaba sellers state of mind are, here is a summary, "WE DONT GIVE A FLYING F ABOUT YOUR ISSUES." Ive ordered numerous items from $50 to $2,000 cost. I also run a small photography biz on the side and when sht dont work, I thank Paypal that they exist. The AliExpress/Alibaba warranty is sht and it caters more to China than international. So for those wondering or getting pissed as to why China is not being the same or similar to any other international businesses out there......Why? What makes you think that they should follow the rest of the world? China alone can make profit all on their own without having to deal with international consumers. They have over 3+billion people vs under 1000k? EUC International EUC riders..lol. Plus in the end, its their product. If all EUC manufacturers decided to follow KS locking mechanism then tough luck. Either take the bullet or get a car. Tesla already doing it and consumers still buy Elon's product. 

[FinRider]

12 minutes ago, EUC_GiO said:

Yes, it might look the same wheel, similar board etc... but if you are going over 20-30+km/m an hour and the wheel gave out and you got knocked down and a few brain cells came spilling out of your nose, will you blame KS for the faulty product or the AliExpress seller?

You are missing the point. The wheels you buy from Aliexpress are the exact same wheel that you buy from your local retailer. 
 

15 minutes ago, EUC_GiO said:

China alone can make profit all on their own without having to deal with international consumers.

This statement is simply not true. We are indeed dealing with a niche product here, that comes at a hefty price. They may have 1.4 billion people, but the average chinese earns about $1200 a month, so buying a premium wheel would be more than a months salary, even at the ali/chicway price levels!

trust me, they rely on international sales for their EUCs. 

[RockyTop]

33 minutes ago, EUC_GiO said:

If everyone who has a KS EUC and aware of the regional/national/international locking mechanism in place perhaps they can send out an email or inform KS bout the negative impact its sending to consumers.

What if they make a mistake? What if they get mad because of trade wars? What if they go out of business and just want to cause trouble? What if you buy a wheel without being told the truth about where it came from? We worry about people stealing our wheel when KS can just brick all of them at any time. This will be calculated in All future purchases regardless of the outcome. 
I was already stranded once while on vacation. KS bricked my wheel when I turned on the app in the middle of a ride. The KS site and app were down for a month. 

No more KS app for me. The S18 might be my last KS wheel. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by RockyTop

[Daniel Hollinghurst]

Disgusting! Why is the onus on the buyer!? I sincerely hope that these rumours are false.

Kingsong should be actively protecting and helping their customers, not punishing them for clearly valid ignorance. 

It's impossible for us to understand why and what is happening here. Extensively researching and rooting through Facebook posts and forums for information on this is not an acceptable method of communication, nor is it fair.

@Jack King Song please confirm the following:
1. Whether or not it is Kingsong company policy to actively disable other peoples property without their express permission and adequate warning. 
2. Kingsong are actively ensuring by any method to accomplish the disablement of "P" serial number wheels for any reason.
3. Do you know of any methods of which we can get unlocks which may be away from Kingsong's restrictions.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Daniel Hollinghurst

[Meulebeest]

11 minutes ago, Daniel Hollinghurst said:

Disgusting! Why is the onus on the buyer!? I sincerely hope that these rumours are false.

Kingsong should be actively protecting and helping their customers, not punishing them for clearly valid ignorance. 

It's impossible for us to understand why and what is happening here. Extensively researching and rooting through Facebook posts and forums for information on this is not an acceptable method of communication, nor is it fair.

@Jack King Song please confirm the following accusations:
1. Whether or not it is Kingsong company policy to actively disable other peoples property without their express permission and adequate warning. 
2. Kingsong are actively ensuring by any method to accomplish the disablement of "P" serial number wheels for any reason.
3. Do you know of any methods of which we can get unlocks which may be away from Kingsong's restrictions.

 

Hmm, don't forget to read the whole post, not just snippets of the last conversation.

See previous posts in this thread, in the beginning some were convinced, like you, it was a rumor ... (we are past that stage)

So we requested an official statement and @Jack King Song was kind enough to reply:

16 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

Sorry for the delayed response, I've been trying to edit and videos that have also been heavily requested.

In short, due to internal changes we will NOT be unlocking wheels when they include the letter P at the end and are produced in 2020.

Example serial number:

KSS181D200810P006
The P indicates it's meant for the local Chinese-Mainland market. If you have bought a unit that has P and was recently purchased please contact your seller to return or open a dispute. 

 

If you have a wheel that is produced earlier than 2020 and does not include the letter P and the wheel is locked. 

PLEASE DM ME.

 

And he also stated the following, seen the [heated]  passionate statements:

6 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

I'm in constant communication with admins. 

I appreciate everyones passionate response and I've shared these with my upper level management. 

 

So build up momentum that he can carry weight in the discussion... (like a post and/or Follow the subject)

Edited August 12, 2020 by Meulebeest

[Seba]

I have to admit, I'm very saddened by what I read  It seems that King Song has chosen the worst possible way to solve the problem they apparently have caused themselves through the wrong sales and pricing policy. They could simply limit the functionality of the application to basic functions, excluding the possibility of firmware updates - just like it is in EUC World and DarknessBot. Lack of any aftersales support would also be understandable. What King Song is doing by rendering wheels unusable is considered a crime in Poland, where such an act is punishable by 3 months to 5 years in prison (Article 288 of the Criminal Code). I suspect that in many other countries King Song's action would also be considered a crime. Regardless of this, such action also violates consumer protection laws that are in force throughout the European Union. A possible lawsuit in this case would hit not only King Song, but also its European distributors. I hope that King Song will reconsider its actions and withdraw from this illegal practice, especially as it damages not only users but the company itself. @Jack King Song, please do your best to convince King Song management to reconsider their actions. Certainly there are much better ways to fight unauthorized export.

At the same time, I would like to make a clear statement: while some of the functions of EUC World are not supported in King Song wheels intended for the Chinese market, EUC World does not and will not block or otherwise interfere with these wheels. EUC World is supported by EUC riders community and developed with users in mind. While I am open to working with wheel manufacturers to ensure compatibility and functionality on current and future wheels, EUC World will remain independent of any wheel manufacturer. I can vouch for this personally.

And finally - I strongly encourage everyone to buy wheels from local dealers. Regardless of wheel manufacturer. 

[Euman]

I am appalled to learn that Kingsong has resorted to attacking its customer base in order to rectify management problems it has with its local dealers. The products being sold by Chinese dealers have all been supplied by Kingsong under arrangements between Kingsong and the dealer - the customer is not involved.

There is no law against shopping internationally. On the contrary, it promotes trade and competition. eBay facilitates purchases from around the globe at the buyers risk. No one purchasing from an overseas supplier expects any after sales service beyond the replacement of incorrect, faulty or damaged goods on arrival, and any additional warranties offered by the supplier.

Deliberate sabotage of goods or services by a manufacturer or producer is unconscionable conduct and must be condemned. Similarly, denial of service by a manufacturer for products which are not discontinued and have not not reached their end of service life, is reprehensible.

Both the manufacturer and its dealers/distributors are able to charge for service and support in the absence of any prior warranty undertaking, as upon the expiration of warranties, unless the product can be deemed not fit for purpose. The arbitrary locking of an EUC by a manufacturer would
certainly render the product not fit for purpose, let alone the legal ramifications of interfering with the rightful property of another party. The manufacturer and its dealers/distributors do not retain any ownership of goods after the sale is concluded, and have no right to take control of the sold goods in any shape or manner, without the prior consent of the owner.

Kingsong's action in locking an EUC without the owner's consent is illegal and dishonest, and needs to be called out in this forum. Kingsong, like any other hardware or software developer, has the opportunity to end support for a product with reasonable notice, and has the opportunity to restrict
the use of its software updates. However, to deny, limit or remove the only means by which an EUC product can be natively operated or controlled, after the product has been legally purchased, is to deliberately render the product unsafe and not fit for purpose. Any manufacturer contemplating such unlawful, discriminatory and detrimental, if not criminal, action should be repudiated and their products should be avoided.

 

[davinche]

16 minutes ago, Euman said:

However, to deny, limit or remove the only means by which an EUC product can be natively operated or controlled, after the product has been legally purchased, is to deliberately render the product unsafe and not fit for purpose.

Do we have any definitions on what "legally purchased" means? While the transaction with aliexpress might be legitimate, is the seller legally allowed to sell the wheel to an international buyer?

Maybe I'm not seeing the full picture (this thread is pretty long!), but a parallel I would like to draw is to a person buying items in bulk (where the item is clearly labeled: "bought in bulk, not to be sold separately"), then goes ahead and sells the items individually anyways. Anyone can open a shop on Amazon or Ebay and sell these items; the transaction that happen on Amazon and Ebay are legitimate. But clearly the act of selling the items individually is not legal. So who should take responsibility?

Edited August 12, 2020 by davinche

[Meulebeest]

23 minutes ago, Seba said:

They could simply limit the functionality of the application to basic functions, excluding the possibility of firmware updates - just like it is in EUC World and DarknessBot.

I still find it very disturbing, apart from some other valid remarks already made, to restrict the firmware.
If a firmware update is there to remediate a dangerous situation (let's say a trolley handle - lift sensor - riding issue), then it should be applied to all riders ...
[or we found the unlucky bastards club - and now we have liability issues ...]

Maybe splitting in features and critical updates, but that would require higher maintenance and version management ...
 

DoA (Dead on Arrival), will have a vocabulary twin, Dead on Instruction.

 

23 minutes ago, Seba said:

EUC World does not and will not block or otherwise interfere with these wheels.

Nice to know, I had that as one of my successive questions on the list, but check it off.
Thanks @Seba for a clear position on this one.

[Rehab1]

8 hours ago, Skecys said:

The only thing wrong with the situation is that we did not know about it yet (officially). Kingsong should put out an official notice. Have people's locked wheels, bought PRIOR to this notice, unlocked and enforce the policy from now on, problem solved.

Exactly! I sent @Jack King Song a PM with almost identical sentiments:

“Remove this onus from faithful KS owners and unlock their wheels, then simply move forward with a precise warning about future purchases  from suppliers that are not supported by KS.