WARNING KINGSONG PRODUCTS

[Xolition]

Something similar happened to me. KS18L wheel died one day. Wouldn't balance or authorize in the app. I tried resetting it with Jason's instructions, put in the wrong code accidentally. Bricked the wheel as it wasn''t authorized. Ended up shipping it to Jason to have a physical part replaced and the software reprogrammed. Cost me some money. Great customer service from Ewheels as usual, but disappointed in KS. Hopefully my S18 works out better.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Xolition

[Chriull]

36 minutes ago, Skecys said:

This would be possible on Inmotion as well, any wheel with a software update ability. Also since it is just software it should be possible to rewrite/circumvent a lockout

Yew, you're right.

But noone else did anything like this till now.

In my very humble opinion the othets just organized their sales channels better and thereby had no need for such desperate measures.

35 minutes ago, Skecys said:

If I were to buy from a Chinese reseller and import the wheel I would have to pay 21% import tax on top of service fees. FYI I recently had a 112 euro package come from the US and that cost me a whopping 51 euro extra to import. On a 2k euro wheel you would have to pay like 500 euro import tax and duties in Belgium...

In europe many aliexpress sellers have warehouses were all duties are paid. Afaik a reason why they are not as "cheap" as they used to be.

Of course there are still enough that ask the same higher prices without prepaid duty in europe - presenting a very unpleasant surprise for the customer

KS has to get aliexpress/their express reselleres abd their "not so good" exclusive western resellers under controll and everything will be ok.

The customers like KS and their wheels, as i do - so we are the wrong group to punish.

[Meulebeest]

26 minutes ago, Skecys said:

If I were to buy from a Chinese reseller and import the wheel I would have to pay 21% import tax on top of service fees. FYI I recently had a 112 euro package come from the US and that cost me a whopping 51 euro extra to import. On a 2k euro wheel you would have to pay like 500 euro import tax and duties in Belgium...

Sighs ...

The correct part of the statement is that there are import taxes to be calculated when importing from China to the EU / Belgium.
PS: to calculate taxes in belgium - have a look at Invoercalculator.be on how the principle works (not straight forward I know), and have a look in the TARIC database for import China / EU for electronic goods (don't think there is a specific section, if anyone knows :-))

But as you know EU also states - free traffic of goods and services (important exchange for VAT), so personally won't import to Belgium / France / Ireland / ... 

Again, as mentioned with references from my inital message: KSS18 > in US 1600 EUR, in RUS 1400 EUR, in EU 2250 EUR ...

So as quick calculation: 1600 EUR (base reference-US) > 2250: 40 pct taxes then ?
But hey, we are not shipping from PRC (China) to US to EU/BE, but PRC (china) to EU
I believe the Trump administration added some import taxes on these Chinese goods as they are outstanding economical friends, so the base price would be less ...
And I believe our US dealers will have added some margin (rightfully, they are a business after all), so the base price would even be less ...

Superduper pct taxes then ?

And what if we where to substitute this with the RUS price ?

Supertrooperduper pct taxes ?
 

So taxes are added, but this is not the only driver of the price difference in Europe.
 

PS: I have read some good remarks in this thread already (and some already debunked by others in the community).

[eve]

11 hours ago, StuartL said:

When you buy a Chinese product internationally you are getting the benefits of KingSong's international market without compensating KingSong financially for that sale.  I can understand why they're frustrated.

What? They didnt have to pay for any shipping or anything. They only had to get it to a Chinese reseller who sent it to the International customer. They have no reason to be pissed.

They are pissed because there seems to be some people in EU stupid enough to pay 2200€ for an S18 and they think they can get away with it.

[Skecys]

31 minutes ago, Meulebeest said:

So as quick calculation: 1600 EUR (base reference-US) > 2250: 40 pct taxes then ?

Actually you are not far off the mark there . Using the calculator a 1650 euro wheel in China would amount to a price of 2095 euro after import taxes and duties in Belgium... And this is the lowest estimate according to the site .

[Rywokast]

Just now, Skecys said:

Actually you are not far off the mark there . Using the calculator a 1650 euro wheel in China would amount to a price of 2095 euro after import taxes and duties in Belgium... And this is the lowest estimate according to the site .

you guys get royally screwed... i could never blame anyone for purchasing from ali despite the lack of support or warranty because no warranty is worth over 25% of the total cost

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

Sorry for the delayed response, I've been trying to edit and videos that have also been heavily requested.

In short, due to internal changes we will NOT be unlocking wheels when they include the letter P at the end and are produced in 2020.

Example serial number:

KSS181D200810P006
The P indicates it's meant for the local Chinese-Mainland market. If you have bought a unit that has P and was recently purchased please contact your seller to return or open a dispute. 

 

If you have a wheel that is produced earlier than 2020 and does not include the letter P and the wheel is locked. 

PLEASE DM ME. 

 

I have too many notifications so even when I do come back to the forum I miss out accidentally on replying to some. If you need immediate support:
Direct Message us: https://www.facebook.com/kingsong.international/
Telegram Message me:  https://t.me/jackattack326

Telegram Chat: https://t.me/kingsonginternational

 

 

 

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

13 hours ago, mrelwood said:

I’m not sure how I feel about having my own wheel whitelisted. If geo locking is the new company policy, having a single worker whitelist individual wheels while the ones who contact the actual official support channels are left with a bricked wheel. Ali sellers selling mainland China wheels abroad might not be fair at the business side, but this behavior of whitelisting single wheels based on who the customer happens to get in contact with is unfair at the individual customer level. It doesn’t help the KS reputation one single bit in my books.

 Maybe Jack wanted to serve me better as a slightly more visible character than the average community member? Still, doesn’t help.

Please don't spread this kind of image of me. I have no bias just because you are forum admin, I want to help with everyones issue as soon as possible and with the same respect levels. I was simply able to see the message easier as you messaged me directly on Telegram. 

[mrelwood]

18 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

Please don't spread this kind of image of me. I have no bias just because you are forum admin, I want to help with everyones issue as soon as possible and with the same respect levels. I was simply able to see the message easier as you messaged me directly on Telegram. 

I apologize, my intent was not to spread an image of you. What I wrote was the best guess (hence the word "maybe") I was able to form since we had no input from KS on what seems like a very peculiar form of action from the customer's point of view.

While the subject has been a bit heated lately, I want to assure you that I have nothing but positive to say about the way you have handled your position between KS and the community. If my wording has come out that way, I have failed to type what I actually think. My only beef is with the company policy and the "internal changes" you mentioned, with which I'm sure you have personally had nothing to do with. Having to enforce a policy that mainly hurts the customers and the community must be a nasty place to be in, and I don't envy your position one bit.

Edited August 12, 2020 by mrelwood

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

27 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I apologize, my intent was not to spread an image of you. What I wrote was the best guess (hence the word "maybe") I was able to form since we had no input from KS on what seems like a very peculiar form of action from the customer's point of view.

While the subject has been a bit heated lately, I want to assure you that I have nothing but positive to say about the way you have handled your position between KS and the community. If my wording has come out that way, I have failed to type what I actually think. My only beef is with the company policy and the "internal changes" you mentioned, with which I'm sure you have personally had nothing to do with. Having to enforce a policy that mainly hurts the customers and the community must be a nasty place to be in, and I don't envy your position one bit.

Thank you for your understanding.

In my experience of a being a rider for 7 years, users who buy from these sellers such as Aliexpress or platforms like this NEVER result in saving money in the long run. Only the up front cost, keep in mind a lot of our official sellers offer finance plans.

All electronic devices come with issues, hence why warranty exists. Depending on your seller/region you may be given 2 years but all wheels come with at least 1. Aliexpress store can open and close very easily as theres little to no cost opening up a store, that means they could close suddenly without warning, leaving you the customer without any service. We encounter many users who require after sale but contact us instead of their seller because those sellers have either closed shop or not responded.

If unfortunately you encounter an issue with motors, motherboards and battery and have bought from Aliexpress sellers you will ship the part/wheel and wait for it to arrive before getting a new part in. Shipping is more expensive, wait is long. 

And lastly, as users we should all support our local dealers. They pay tax, have a store front, hire employees etc. In the long run when dealers grow it'll help users of the local community. 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Jack King Song

[Tinkererboi]

14 minutes ago, Jack King Song said:

Thank you for your understanding.

In my experience of a being a rider for 7 years, users who buy from these sellers such as Aliexpress or platforms like this NEVER result in saving money in the long run. Only the up front cost, keep in mind a lot of our official sellers offer finance plans.

All electronic devices come with issues, hence why warranty exists. Depending on your seller/region you may be given 2 years but all wheels come with at least 1. Aliexpress store can open and close very easily as theres little to no cost opening up a store, that means they could close suddenly without warning, leaving you the customer without any service. We encounter many users who require after sale but contact us instead of their seller because those sellers have either closed shop or not responded.

If unfortunately you encounter an issue with motors, motherboards and battery and have bought from Aliexpress sellers you will ship the part/wheel and wait for it to arrive before getting a new part in. Shipping is more expensive, wait is long. 

And lastly, as users we should all support our local dealers. They pay tax, have a store front, hire employees etc. In the long run when dealers grow it'll help users of the local community. 

What about countries with dealers that overcharge? What will kingsong do then? Control the dealers? 

Countries with no dealers? 

How about people who buy second hand from other community members? Are they all royally screwed for no reason at all? 

And my most serious question of all: some friends and I have had plans of flying to China for a vacation, purchasing a wheel, and wheeling+taking public transport options back down to Singapore for the past year until it was postponed due to Covid-19. Many of us had already booked our leaves with our employers. One friend with his 18xl even made it up to the laos/yunan border in March on a recce trip before having to fly back down due to Covid. According to your new policy we can no longer buy Kingsong for our planned trip. What then? 

[Retrovertigo]

Official dealers can still close down. Surely the warranty is ultimately with the manufacturer and NOT the seller? 

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

29 minutes ago, Tinkererboi said:

What about countries with dealers that overcharge? What will kingsong do then? Control the dealers? 

Countries with no dealers? 

How about people who buy second hand from other community members? Are they all royally screwed for no reason at all? 

And my most serious question of all: some friends and I have had plans of flying to China for a vacation, purchasing a wheel, and wheeling+taking public transport options back down to Singapore for the past year until it was postponed due to Covid-19. Many of us had already booked our leaves with our employers. One friend with his 18xl even made it up to the laos/yunan border in March on a recce trip before having to fly back down due to Covid. According to your new policy we can no longer buy Kingsong for our planned trip. What then? 

Which dealers overcharge? You can DM me their links. 
People who buy second hand should always deal in person and ensure the product is working, and also shouldnt buy a P unit. 

If you and your friends are visiting China, reach out to me, I'm make sure that wheel you purchase from King Song doesnt have that issue. 

[NOSFET Electric Dreams]

13 minutes ago, Retrovertigo said:

Official dealers can still close down. Surely the warranty is ultimately with the manufacturer and NOT the seller? 

Never said they couldn't, but the fact is that usually these sellers are more well connected in the community and have more of an obligation, where Aliexpress is almost anonymous with no obligation of any sort. 

[mrelwood]

 

Quote

In my experience of a being a rider for 7 years, users who buy from these sellers such as Aliexpress or platforms like this NEVER result in saving money in the long run.

All 4 wheels I currently have are bought from Aliexpress. At the time of purchase there where no official distributors for any of them in our country. No warranty or support requirements, outside of KS locking up my wheel. Combined, I have saved about 2000€ buying from Ali.

 Only warranty issue would’ve been the 16S battery, but the warranty on batteries is usually just 6 months.

Quote

...from Aliexpress sellers you will ship the part/wheel and wait for it to arrive before getting a new part in. Shipping is more expensive, wait is long. 

 

Quote

local dealers. They pay tax, have a store front, hire employees etc.

The official KS distributor in our country:

- Offers no repairs beyond routine stuff and has no stock on parts, so his customers wait even longer than the ones who ship their wheels to China (or wait for a spare part) themselves.

- Does not have a store front.

- Has not hired employees.

1 hour ago, Jack King Song said:

People who buy second hand should always deal in person and ensure the product is working, and also shouldnt buy a P unit.

Sorry but that is just ridiculous. In this very thread a community member bought a perfectly working KS wheel second hand, until it got remotely locked. “Shouldn’t have bought a P unit” is just ridiculous beyond comprehension. As if this KS’s arbitrary trickstery were or should be common knowledge when purchasing a second hand product. No, it’s an illegal move in many (if not all) countries KS does business in. “Don’t buy a KS if...” is easier and best remembered as just “Don’t by a KS.”

 

 I’m usually pretty tight on which parts of personal messaging I share publicly, but I now enter a gray area. Earlier in this thread I mentioned Jack claiming in a PM that KS doesn’t lock users’ wheels. He now asked me when had he ever said that. Well, it was June 9th, the exact wording being “we don’t plan on impacting our customers that way”. Plans change I guess.

I take this as an official statement that KS has decided to make users’ wheels dysfunctional, no matter when they were bought.

However, if it’s an old wheel, or if some other circumstances are just right, you can  hope that you have read this thread and know how to try and contact Jack directly, and he might end up unlocking your wheel.

What a ridiculous farce. Not a penny more. If you support this kind of (illegal in many countries) behavior, go right ahead.

Edited August 12, 2020 by mrelwood

[Scottie888]

@Jack King SongIf KS doesn't correct this MISTAKE, then NEVER AGAIN. Vote with our wallets! This is freakin ridonculous! U go after your dealers who sell to whoever that sells to whomever. U don't go after your real customers as after all, U got your money no matter where & how we the end users, buy ours from.

Think about that!

Btw even if there's such a policy of locking grey market units, there needs to be a grace period informing everyone of your intentions. U don't arbitrarily lock it down whenever U feel like it with NO WARNING PERIOD!

[StuartL]

@Jack King Song: It may help if you're able to explain King Song's reasoning for this locking.  If King Song have a good reason then it would be great to know what that reason is, if King Song do not have a good reason then you can see that the backlash from the community may be severe.

Please understand that I'm directly involved in international shipping as part of my day job and (unlike some on this thread) I do get why the pricing is very different in different countries and I also completely understand the refusal to provide warranty or guarantees for products used in different country to the intended market.  What I (and many on this thread) have a huge problem with is depriving your customers the use of a wheel that they bought in good faith without having a reasonable method of validating its origins.

With this approach you're building a fear in the community that the buyer doesn't know the origins of the wheel, doesn't know how the vendor (private or commercial) sourced the wheel and King Song may decide to lock it in the future for reasons unknown and not understood by the buyer.  That fear will drive a subset of the community away from King Song products.  How do we know that King Song won't decide that Speedy Feet or ewheels are no longer an approved reseller and start locking the wheels sold by those vendors?

[Tinkererboi]

I think the consensus is clear that not having warranty is fair game for those who do not go through your selected dealers.

Since buyers who buy from other sources and then try to bug the manufacturer for warranty are the ones causing the company pain, why doesn't Kingsong just print some stickers on all wheels saying warranty is not valid unless purchased from authorised dealers? Pretty sure the community would stand behind Kingsong's decision in that case.

Much better than losing a big proportion of loyal customers in my opinion.

[FinRider]

I work for a manufacturing company as the channel sales manager. This means that I am in charge of our global distribution network and I work on a daily basis closely with our distributors, supporting them in representing us in their local market.

It is a tough challenge dealing with a global channel as every country / culture is different. Pricing is just the top of the iceberg but that seems to be the main beef for KS and their EUC's. Every territory / country has a different price level, mandated (by law) minimum warranty, service requirement, etc. It is extremely hard for a customer (consumer) to know the intricate details that every country has imposed on them. We as a manufacturer work closely with the distributor and adjust our transfer pricing (dealer pricing) depending on the local circumstances in said country. This ofcourse directly translates to a different "street price" for each territory/country - we aim to keep the MSRP the same as even a global economy has some degree of transparency to it.

With this being said, I think I have a good understanding of the challenges that KS is going through. Their products sold to local distributors in China were never ment for the export market and I understand their frustrations with them. However, they (local retailers like chicway etc) are not the cause for the actions that KS has taken, it is the international distributors who are complaining to them that they can not compete (with pricing) with these retailers. It is a petty argument, as the international dealers should compete with what they have in their tool bag, which is warranty, service and support.

What KS is doing by locking wheels is both illegal and reprehensible. I would caution them to continue the practice, as the word will spread very fast. Not every 1st time buyer is even aware that this forum exists or that the "official" channel for KS communication is facebook, so the consumer is unaware of this (illegal) policy that KS has put in place.

What I would do if I were KS would be to develop other ways of restricting the wheels to certain markets. It is for example totally legal to have the wheel check for a license to be used. with said license you can then control functionality of the device, for example locking the top speed of the wheel to 15 km/h if it is not valid. The license can be set to be annually renewable, which means the customer / end user has to renew the license through official channels. If you are a resident in Europe, get it from an authorized European distributor, same for the US etc. --> this is how you can protect your local distributor as they can then generate revenue by selling licenses that expire, and the customer would be aware of this and can thus take it into consideration when purchasing a new / used wheel as the license fees would be known / published numbers.

If KS continues to illegally lock their wheels remotely, then it will end in their demise as people who otherwise love their wheels bc of features / looks etc will stay clear of the brand.

The situation for KS is in my opinion still salvageable, but it would require an official apology both here on the forum and on facebook with clear instructions how affected customers can contact official KS support to get the locked wheels unlocked. 

[Yxzygäilijä]

5 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

In my experience of a being a rider for 7 years, users who buy from these sellers such as Aliexpress or platforms like this NEVER result in saving money in the long run.

I bought my 16x from aliexpress last year. Price was 1460€. At the local ditributor price is 2109€. I saved 649€. I don't understand how this would not result in saving money.

5 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

If unfortunately you encounter an issue with motors, motherboards and battery and have bought from Aliexpress sellers you will ship the part/wheel and wait for it to arrive before getting a new part in. Shipping is more expensive, wait is long. 

This is not true. I had issue with battery and I explained the issue to the aliexpress seller who then sent me new battery for free. I didn't ship anything to the seller.

Edited August 12, 2020 by Yxzygäilijä

[Meulebeest]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

It is a tough challenge dealing with a global channel as every country / culture is different. Pricing is just the top of the iceberg but that seems to be the main beef for KS and their EUC's. Every territory / country has a different price level, mandated (by law) minimum warranty, service requirement, etc. It is extremely hard for a customer (consumer) to know the intricate details that every country has imposed on them. We as a manufacturer work closely with the distributor and adjust our transfer pricing (dealer pricing) depending on the local circumstances in said country. This ofcourse directly translates to a different "street price" for each territory/country - we aim to keep the MSRP the same as even a global economy has some degree of transparency to it.

With this being said, I think I have a good understanding of the challenges that KS is going through. Their products sold to local distributors in China were never ment for the export market and I understand their frustrations with them. However, they (local retailers like chicway etc) are not the cause for the actions that KS has taken, it is the international distributors who are complaining to them that they can not compete (with pricing) with these retailers. It is a petty argument, as the international dealers should compete with what they have in their tool bag, which is warranty, service and support.

Could not agree more, certainly in today's global economy and transparency (through the internet).
And indeed the main differentiators of Points of Sale should be as you say, which made the name of resellers like Ecodrift or Ewheels or ...
An informed person would know that there is a huge price difference, personally from a purchase perspective I can't help but feeling cheated (in the EU).
 

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

What KS is doing by locking wheels is both illegal

I ll have a look, in European context you are correct, but in China <> EU relationship ?

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

I would caution them to continue the practice, as the word will spread very fast.

Agreed, from a Marketing (brand) perspective this is such a no-no, this dents the customer relationship (and trust in the brand) in such a way that it cannot be easily repaired once it has set in. If some EUC riders would voice / boycott, because of their personal frustrations or as agents of the EUC community, then more humble (potential) customers would steer away from the KingSong brand, as non confidence (why take the risk) would weigh in on the purchase decision.

 

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

What I would do if I were KS would be to develop other ways of restricting the wheels to certain markets. It is for example totally legal to have the wheel check for a license to be used.

I love that you are looking into possible approaches .
Personally I would not choose for your suggestion, but hey.
I like how some brands are now selling locally and than globally improve the relationship with customers (and selling additional services, e.g. extended warranty, personalization, ...)

 

PS: the choice between an INMOTION V11 and a KingSong S18 is a very delicate balance, and this will certainly influence sales.

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Meulebeest

[davitron]

6 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

Aliexpress store can open and close very easily

We may also lose (easily) a KS representative in his forum (which seems to be the only solution to our KS problems of this kind) if the KS attitude towards the international market continues becoming this ridiculous.

5 hours ago, Jack King Song said:

If you and your friends are visiting China, reach out to me, I'm make sure that wheel you purchase from King Song doesnt have that issue. 

Funny. I hope for your health that you don't work every day of the year, but based on this statement I guess I can expect you to be available every time I decide to visit China so that you can tell me in which secret store you sell non-local KS, right? Hopefully they will be priced the same as the local ones!

If there is such a store or possibility of buying non-local KS EUC in China, then how long do you think is going to take to the Ali resellers to get their hands on them thus rendering the geo-locking BS useless?

[Planemo]

Wow. This is a game changer. I for one certainly wont be buying any new KS wheels outside of an authorized distributor. In short that means I wont ever buy a KS wheel from this point on, as I wont pay AD prices.

I certainly couldnt trust an Ali seller that the unit I order is a non P version either (if indeed anything built 2020 onwards isnt a P).

[Wolverine]

Just as I as an end consumer see this situation, it is better to avoid this company's products. As customers, we do have the right to make choices and decisions. A company that doesn't care about its end users doesn’t exist for very long.

[Antec]

Some of the bigger Ali sellers have actual high street shops, quite fancy ones, they sell all kinds of PEVs, so chances of them closing is small.

if you have a decent relationship with them, they do take care of you.

What i want to know is, the announcement just made about wheels purchased in 2020 from China will be locked and deemed useless.

Should this announcement not have been made in 2019? and not in August of 2020?

Surely the policy should start as of now, so all wheels purchased January to July should be safe?

 

Edited August 12, 2020 by Antec