WARNING KINGSONG PRODUCTS

[Tinkererboi]

27 minutes ago, meriwald said:

Welcome to the fukxng transition from factory to a brand. This is a totally retarded answer from KS. The guy is not asking for any support, just DONT lock the wheel

fucking money grabbers

GotWay one love 

This is terrible news. Was planning to get an S18. Might have to settle for the V11 just because of this. Disappointed in KS, this was their chance to grab market share back from Inmotion.

[MrP-MrF]

I totally agree with the above. I have had several wheels but I stay with Kingsong because I like their reliability and the algorithm.
Whether purchased from aliexpress, these are wheels manufactured by Kingsong from the same fucking factory.

I can understand that Kingsong withdraws warranty from the wheels if not purchased from a local dealer for protecting their network of sellers.

What is unacceptable is to start locking existing wheels. Many wheelers started out with KS wheels from Aliexpress or even used.
Blocking an existing wheel like this causes its value to be reduced, which is legally wrong.

For my part, I regret having pre-ordered an s18 from an official dealer (ks europe) who has no sense of the customer, and if Kingsong does not review his copy, it will be my last wheel with them.

[StuartL]

Has there been a second (or more) report of this happening beyond the OP?  I'm not trying to excuse the behaviour of King Song, I think it's abhorrent to lock someone's wheel, I'm just wondering if there's more to this story than first meets the eye.  e.g. If this specific wheel was given to someone as a pre-production test unit and then sold on AliExpress illegitimately.

Locking one wheel because someone breached their contract is a very different situation to routinely locking wheels bought on Aliexpress.

Regarding the OP's problem: If you bought something new from a UK business (and they must be trading as a business) then you have implied warranty.  If the wheel doesn't work then you are entitled to an automatic refund.  Within the first 6 months the burden of proof is upon the seller (i.e. the seller has to prove that you broke it).  Between 6 and 12 months you have to prove that the wheel is unsuitable for the purpose for which it was sold.

This isn't something a seller can opt out of, it's automatic in UK law when someone trading as a business sells something listed as 'new'.  Incidentally it also applies (to a lesser extent and for a shorter period) to used cars bought from a car dealer

[Vulkov]

45 minutes ago, StuartL said:

Has there been a second (or more) report of this happening beyond the OP?  I'm not trying to excuse the behaviour of King Song, I think it's abhorrent to lock someone's wheel, I'm just wondering if there's more to this story than first meets the eye.  e.g. If this specific wheel was given to someone as a pre-production test unit and then sold on AliExpress illegitimately.

Locking one wheel because someone breached their contract is a very different situation to routinely locking wheels bought on Aliexpress.

Regarding the OP's problem: If you bought something new from a UK business (and they must be trading as a business) then you have implied warranty.  If the wheel doesn't work then you are entitled to an automatic refund.  Within the first 6 months the burden of proof is upon the seller (i.e. the seller has to prove that you broke it).  Between 6 and 12 months you have to prove that the wheel is unsuitable for the purpose for which it was sold.

This isn't something a seller can opt out of, it's automatic in UK law when someone trading as a business sells something listed as 'new'.  Incidentally it also applies (to a lesser extent and for a shorter period) to used cars bought from a car dealer

Thank you for the info! My wheel was bought from a private entity who bought it from Aliexpress. I'm in the process of returning the wheel as I was lucky enough that the person that I bought it from happened to be an incredibly decent human being.

It takes one look at the Facebook groups to see that people complain about locked wheels and it seems to be just beginning. Unfortunate for Kingsong, as this will only hurt them IMO.

I'm going to order a V11. 

Edited August 10, 2020 by Vulkov
A word

[MrP-MrF]

58 minutes ago, StuartL said:

Has there been a second (or more) report of this happening beyond the OP?  

Second in less than one week : see here...
 

[StuartL]

Have any of the victims been able to unlock with Darkness Bot? It looks like some succeeded and some failed...

[Scottie888]

I've got a china source that says they have a way round this. I'll update or post a new thread once I have any news.

Regardless this is fukkin' ridiculous. If so proven, lets not let KS get away with tactics like this.

Don't wanna get political here but it sure as heck smacks of CCP vileness in how they treat their own citizens, nevermind others. Remember their "Social Credit" system where they can literally ban peeps from getting jobs, travelling or whateva da hell they want just cos.....! VILE is da word. 

I think its time for an American/Canadian/EU or even other SEA companies to step up to mfgr these things as its not really rocket science. I'm will to pay more (within reason ofcos). 

[meriwald]

1 hour ago, Scottie888 said:

I've got a china source that says they have a way round this. I'll update or post a new thread once I have any news.

Regardless this is fukkin' ridiculous. If so proven, lets not let KS get away with tactics like this.

Don't wanna get political here but it sure as heck smacks of CCP vileness in how they treat their own citizens, nevermind others. Remember their "Social Credit" system where they can literally ban peeps from getting jobs, travelling or whateva da hell they want just cos.....! VILE is da word. 

I think its time for an American/Canadian/EU or even other SEA companies to step up to mfgr these things as its not really rocket science. I'm will to pay more (within reason ofcos). 

Remember guys, there is no way for governments to step it and prevent KingSong from these ridiculous practices. They legally exist in China only.
So the only way to show them the right way is to stop buying their wheels. Vote with your wallet, cancel current pre orders, consider other manufacturers.

[mrelwood]

I reached out to @Jack King Song, who asked for the serial number for my remotely locked 16S and he was able to remotely unlock (whitelist?) the wheel in 33 hours. He did read my question about why it got locked in the first place, but decided not to reply.

For a spare wheel like mine, 33h may be tolerable, but I would never ever take a risk like that for my main wheel.

KS is shooting themselves in the leg, big time.

[Retrovertigo]

I'm gobsmacked reading this thread. Kingsong need to wake up and realise we live in an internet world. People buy items from all over the world these days, and a lot of the best companies offer international warranties regardless of where it was purchased. 

 I was undecided between a V11 and the S18, and despite the fact I would have been buying from a U.K dealer, I don't think Kingsong deserve my cash.

[StuartL]

It would be interesting to get an official statement from King Song on this (@Jack King Song?) as there's a lot of people (myself included) about to drop a bunch of cash on a suspension wheel and this could be an influencing factor.  It's encouraging that @mrelwood got his issue fixed but it's unclear why that case is different to @Vulkov's case.

For those who consider this business practice unacceptable I'd like to point out that it's entirely normal for any global manufacturer to take a similar approach to pricing.  When undertaking global manufacture of any product you always know that some markets are more lucrative than others and you price your products accordingly. This means that in some markets you may be making very little margin but in others you're making a higher margin.  Some of this is basic economics and some of this is the increased costs of doing business overseas:

* You might not be able to sell the product at a higher price in one market but you still need to make a certain amount of money to make the business viable, so you sell it at the maximum price you think each market will suffer so that you're still running a viable business.

* The costs of doing international business should not be understated.  International certifications (FCC, EC, EMC etc) do not come cheap and require massive admin overhead to maintain and document for shipping.  Shipping itself has a huge resource cost, especially for dangerous goods (which lithium batteries are).  All of these costs have to come from somewhere and it's unfair for the Chinese market to suffer these additional costs.  Indeed it's likely that KingSong wouldn't be able to sell to the Chinese market if they priced the international costs into the Chinese products.

* It's likely that wheels bought through AliExpress (or alternatives) aren't considering some of these international shipping matters and may not be declaring things correctly on invoices.  Wheels may be listed without the batteries or the customs invoice may have an incorrect value.  Wheels may not have the correct product identification stickers (FCC/CE, etc).  These common behaviours are not exactly moral and may result in customs delays, customs bills or your wheel simply being confiscated on arrival.

When you buy a Chinese product internationally you are getting the benefits of KingSong's international market without compensating KingSong financially for that sale.  I can understand why they're frustrated.

Don't get me wrong, this post is intended to speculate as to King Song's perspective.  I don't think it's right that the consumer is the one who suffers a locked wheel and appreciate that @Jack King Song has arranged for at least one wheel to be unlocked.

[mrelwood]

39 minutes ago, StuartL said:

I don't think it's right that the consumer is the one who suffers a locked wheel and appreciate that @Jack King Song has arranged for at least one wheel to be unlocked.

I’m not sure how I feel about having my own wheel whitelisted. If geo locking is the new company policy, having a single worker whitelist individual wheels while the ones who contact the actual official support channels are left with a bricked wheel. Ali sellers selling mainland China wheels abroad might not be fair at the business side, but this behavior of whitelisting single wheels based on who the customer happens to get in contact with is unfair at the individual customer level. It doesn’t help the KS reputation one single bit in my books.

 Maybe Jack wanted to serve me better as a slightly more visible character than the average community member? Still, doesn’t help.

[Skecys]

I bought my KS16x from a EU dealer and was very happy I did, since it had issues. My dealer did everything they could to rectify the defects, in the end I sent it back to them and they repaired it free of charge (new motherboard and tire). Now it has been flawless for a year so far.

I wanted to pre-order a KS S18 and found my way to Chicway shop. Pricing is about 1500 euro there compared to about 2200 euro at official EU dealers. I asked my dealer why the huge difference in price and they said the ones Chicway sell are meant for the Chinese market, built using inferior parts and locked ad 20km/h (they are not allowed to go faster in China). Chicway does state a top speed of 31mph (50km/h) though. My dealer then made me a better offer for the s18 since I am a returning customer. Still nowhere near Chicway price but I did take that offer knowing I will get full support, since I needed it in the past.

Now to get to the point; I understand what Kingsong is doing. They don't want their products sold by 3rd parties without warranty or support. If you buy a wheel flagged for the Chinese market and it shows them you are trying to use it in Europe... And they can't make an exception because that would be the same as allowing the sales (since everybody buying from the guy you bought it from will want an exception ofc). You say there is no way for you to know? Well if it is like 500 euro cheaper then on EU sellers, that should be an obvious red flag. Not saying all wheels from Chicway or Aliexpress are "tampered with/locked", but it is a gamble.

[mrelwood]

 

3 minutes ago, Skecys said:

built using inferior parts and locked ad 20km/h (they are not allowed to go faster in China).

I don’t believe these two claims to be true. They aren’t allowed faster than 25km/h in EU either, and not at all on public roads in the UK. Yet many shops sell 50km/h wheels all over UK and EU. And EUC manufacturers don’t make the models available in two quality levels. I think your dealer just wants to make other options sound like bad ones.

3 minutes ago, Skecys said:

If you buy a wheel flagged for the Chinese market and it shows them you are trying to use it in Europe...

For example when moving to or traveling from China to EU. Or selling a 4-year old used wheel.

3 minutes ago, Skecys said:

And they can't make an exception because that would be the same as allowing the sales (since everybody buying from the guy you bought it from will want an exception ofc).

Exactly. To be clear, it wasn’t the seller who unlocked my wheel. I bought the 16S from Aliexpress in 2017, and Jack (KS employee since 2020) reached out to me by a personal message and asked to reach out to him directly if I faced issues with the new app.

3 minutes ago, Skecys said:

You say there is no way for you to know? Well if it is like 500 euro cheaper then on EU sellers, that should be an obvious red flag.

There are many examples of EUC deals with a 500€ price difference between two EU sellers. It is ridiculous to expect the customer to figure out that wheels from some sellers may be randomly locked by the manufacturer.

Let me remind you that we are not concerned about the lack of warranty or support. That’s all cool. It can be expected to be a known decision when buying anything at all; warranty and support is offered by the seller.

I get that KS are “worried”, “concerned”, or “don’t want to”. But we are concerned about the manufacturer remotely rendering our perfectly functional vehicles useless. It has nothing to do with support or warranty (which for my wheel ended two years ago). It is vandalism, just like it would be if I reprogrammed your car keys so you could no longer start your car.

There are absolutely no excuses for KS’s behavior.

[Chriull]

1 hour ago, Skecys said:

I asked my dealer why the huge difference in price and they said the ones Chicway sell are meant for the Chinese market, built using inferior parts and locked ad 20km/h (they are not allowed to go faster in China).

 

34 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

I don’t believe these two claims to be true.

Afair there were chinese reviews of wheels going faster than 20 km/h?

Imho even the ks s18?

No "modern", new wheel would make sense beeing "crippled" to 20 km/h pricewise - any 1000W motor would much more than enough. So something like the KS16S would be the perfect wheel for china. And maybe some older GW with more battery capacity.

There is no need to build a wheel limited to 20 km/h with inferior parts - an inferior old wheel is more than enough...

Edited August 11, 2020 by Chriull
Too much typos...

[Skecys]

If you would be moving to or from China certain things won't work/be allowed. You can't use Facebook in China for example. If KS stated they do NOT want people selling their wheels from China (Aliexpress etc.) then they can do whatever they want to it. Not saying I stand behind this.

Keep in mind that most people, especially in Europe are "supposed" to pay import tax on these wheels. Hence why they are so expensive by comparison. 

@mrelwood Humor me; how would you, if you were Kingsong, stop Aliexpress sellers from selling your product? They can't control who buys their stock. They can however make "us" stop buying from those sellers.

I don't know how else to explain this whole ordeal. You saying they are just picking on this one guy somewhere cause they can? That would be really petty.

Edited August 11, 2020 by Skecys

[Antec]

Everyone knows if you buy from Aliexpress the warranty is with the seller and not the manufacturer. This is a risk the buyer takes. No one has ever disputed thiis.

But for the manufacture to start disabling your wheel remotely is bad a call. It's simply wrong. 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Antec

[Chriull]

18 minutes ago, Skecys said:

They can however make "us" stop buying from those sellers.

Yes, they can. But as @mrelwood posted, if tgey do it by punishing their customers spending their hard earned money, they'll get their anger in return.

Also very understandable ;(

16 minutes ago, Antec said:

Everyone knows if you buy from Aliexpress the warranty is with the seller and not the manufacturer. This is a risk the buyer takes. No one has ever disputed thiis.

But for the manufacture to start disabling your wheel remotely is bad call. It's simply wrong. 

And exactly this could be/is the problem - if someone not knowing this KS policy, as there is absolutely no obligation for any customer to ask the manufacturer before buying from some reseller, they get the wheel in good faith from alieexpress, drive some time, miss their dispute deadline and are f***ed.

Only a new wheel dead on arrival could save the customers (1) - but i'm not sure about who has to bear the costs of return shipment. If they have to be payed by the customer, it would still be enough anger left in regard to KS...

Edit: (1) if they have the time to try it within this short period of time and do not allow the aliexpress reseller to.persuade/sweet talk to them. Which some of them master with perfect skill...:(

Edited August 11, 2020 by Chriull

[Yxzygäilijä]

This is unacceptable and pure stupidity from kingsong. 

@Jack King Song Can you please give official statement or say something?

6 hours ago, mrelwood said:

Maybe Jack wanted to serve me better as a slightly more visible character than the average community member?

Sounds right. Ks was able to unlock your wheel, but not @Vulkov's wheel! Can you @Jack King Song explain why? Maybe because @mrelwood are more visible in the euc community?

After all issues I've faced with my 16x and now this, I'm not buying Kingsong ever again...

[mrelwood]

33 minutes ago, Skecys said:

If you would be moving to or from China certain things won't work/be allowed. You can't use Facebook in China for example.

Facebook is a free service, an EUC is a self contained physical vehicle that has been paid for. The manufacturer or anybody else (law officers excluded in some rare cases) has zero right to do anything to the wheel. Just like you don’t have any right to do anything to a car you sold to someone else.

 The app itself does offer some services in addition to being a part of the product, since the product was sold with an app functionality. If they only offer the app to Chinese customers, they can make the app not work outside China. But that has nothing to do with the issue. The apps can stop functioning if they want, but vandalizing the product is just ridiculous. Nothing else to it.

Quote

If KS stated they do NOT want people selling their wheels from China (Aliexpress etc.) then they can do whatever they want to it.

They can do whatever they want to the business deals they have with the Ali sellers. They have zero right to touch or modify the items they have sold to an individual.

Quote

@mrelwood Humor me; how would you, if you were Kingsong, stop Aliexpress sellers from selling your product? They can't control who buys their stock. They can however make "us" stop buying from those sellers.

I really don’t have enough knowledge about their business deals and the practices in China to suggest anything. And I really wouldn’t care to even if I did. The company’s business is their business. But the products I buy are my business as soon as they are paid for.

If I didn’t want my products to be sold, I wouldn’t manufacture them in the first place. More than anything KS are stopping people from buying KS wheels in general. Since the threat came to be early this year, I’ve read and heard dozens of people saying that they no longer consider KS as an option for their next wheel. The S18 thread alone had two guys cancel their S18 preorders due to this thread. Just look at the post above this one. That’s what this KS’s move does.

You really don’t have to explain the issue to me. I’m petty knowledgeable about it already. I also know something about the customer protection laws, for example the ones that apply to all mail order products that are shipped to our country.

Do you really think it would be OK for me to poke holes in your fridge’s cooling elements because the shop you bought it from had a bad deal with the manufacturer? Or any other reason?

Quote

You saying they are just picking on this one guy somewhere cause they can? That would be really petty.

I don’t know which “one guy” you are talking about. Many KS wheels have been remotely locked lately. And yes, it is really petty.

Edited August 11, 2020 by mrelwood

[Chriull]

2 hours ago, Skecys said:

Now to get to the point; I understand what Kingsong is doing. They don't want their products sold by 3rd parties without warranty or support. If you buy a wheel flagged for the Chinese market and it shows them you are trying to use it in Europe...

Primary point here is, as mentioned in the previous post, that new customers have mostly no possibility to know if they buy products the manufacturer did not intent for their countries. According to most western legal systems (customer protection) one has to assume good faith or proove the opposite (criminal intent).

I'd assume that not enabling or actively disabling by intent a product in the western countries that was bought legally could be illegal or at least in some very "grey zone". Of course not to be enforced against a chinese manufacturer.

Same with aliexpress resellers - their customer protection obligations cannot be enforced...

So a solution could be that every foreign seller has to deposit money in every western country he does sales, so customers could be satisfied if local laws are broken.Imho this would be the best solution, but also most western customers and china would not like such a system at all... ;(

Another great solution could be imho, if KS not only takes the freedom to block wheels but also the obligation that their exclusive resellers act in a professional way! As taking a fair price and offering great service. As @Jason McNeil (ewheels) and @EcoDrift does! (And many others i don't know) Not like the polnish reseller with some irish/scottish Ltd who collected preorders and never delivered, but showed some (?faked?) Ks exclusive reseller letter...

Or some (like here mentioned/rumoured) resellers who take "fictional" prices and offer nothing in return. Sending a wheel back and forth to china for repair is mockery of customers and not worth any cent... Compared to them many aliexpress resellers offer more service by sending motherboards...

I hope KS rethinks their policy and gets to a solution they can live with without discomforting their customers! Afaik it's very important in china that everyone can keep his face! @Jack King Song?

Me and my brother are loyal KS customers (after our ninebot one e+) and very pleased with our decision. But playing devils advocat, any ks wheel (even any bought through a western reseller) could be locked anytime one opens a ks app...

I strongly hope and assume this will never happen and KS does not intend to do this - but were are "helplessy at their mercy"

[Meulebeest]

1 hour ago, Skecys said:

Keep in mind that most people, especially in Europe are "supposed" to pay import tax on these wheels. Hence why they are so expensive by comparison.

Hey Skecys,

Please read the whole thread again, as I also stated in previous messages - the difference in pricing is NOT implied import tax evasion for Europe.
You can check import taxes and calculate them, European / Belgium (It is not that difference - that is hogwash).
Even if you'd suggest the other continent resellers pay 0 import tax (!) and only sales tax, it still would not explain the price difference.

 

[Skecys]

1 hour ago, Chriull said:

Me and my brother are loyal KS customers (after our ninebot one e+) and very pleased with our decision. But playing devils advocat, any ks wheel (even any bought through a western reseller) could be locked anytime one opens a ks app...

This would be possible on Inmotion as well, any wheel with a software update ability. Also since it is just software it should be possible to rewrite/circumvent a lockout

[Skecys]

1 hour ago, Meulebeest said:

Please read the whole thread again, as I also stated in previous messages - the difference in pricing is NOT implied import tax evasion for Europe.
You can check import taxes and calculate them, European / Belgium (It is not that difference - that is hogwash).
Even if you'd suggest the other continent resellers pay 0 import tax (!) and only sales tax, it still would not explain the price difference.

If I were to buy from a Chinese reseller and import the wheel I would have to pay 21% import tax on top of service fees. FYI I recently had a 112 euro package come from the US and that cost me a whopping 51 euro extra to import. On a 2k euro wheel you would have to pay like 500 euro import tax and duties in Belgium...

[Scubadragonsan]

Strangely and gladly, I have 4 KingSong wheels and never have run into the wheels being locked permanently. They were bought from different sources. First time heard of this. Why would a reseller do this, even unintentionally? This would like close down his own business. Is this regional, maybe?