WARNING KINGSONG PRODUCTS

[davitron]

This was already discussed here before but I want to share my experience (rant).

I bought almost 2 years ago a KS16S from KingSong Spain official seller, I paid almost 25-30% more than what I saw it cost on eWheels/Speedyfeet (40-50% more than Ali/Chicway without taxes). During the first year I had a problem with the battery, it wasn't getting charged to 100%, so I wrote the seller believing it was a dead cell, after all I bought it locally because of the warranty, right? Man, they were putting a never ending amount of excuses, including accusing me I didn't use the device "right" and so on, when I exclusively used the EUC for commuting and follow the "charging-guidelines" that I found on this forum. Only after almost 1 month (and nearly talking about suing), they accepted to repair it.

So the story ends here? nope, after I send them my EUC another month passed and nothing, they didn't even replied and I was there, without any EUC, having to use public transport spending almost 1 extra hour commuting every day. I had to go physically to their store (in Barcelona, 5 hours travelling from where I lived) using my holidays to complain in person and ask about the whereabouts of my KS16S. They told me they shipped it to the factory (in China) because they didn't do any repairs and they didn't even know how long it was going to take for them to receive the EUC back, what a joke! Thankfully one of the staff there offered me to borrow one of the KS16S they had there until they received mine.

At least I got that because they never contacted me back again and I didn't bother wasting more time with them as the KS16S I borrowed worked as expected. Or so I thought until this year when KingSong decided to lock wheels... yep, my "official" KS16S from the official KingSong Spain store has a "P" serial number. Fortunately I don't use the KS app, only EUC World, and I lurk this forum to get the latest news.

As you have guessed I'm never going to buy KS again, nor I'll be recommending them forever, instead I'll be sharing my experience and how bad their business practices are. Also next time you bet I'm not going to buy locally just for the sake of it and I'm not paying 30% more for such horrific customer service and delays. In fact my inner tubes came from Poland, I bought my tubes replacement from Ryszard (eunicycles.eu) because I had another bad experience with a different Spanish seller (solorueda.com), long story sort, they sold tubes with a different valve than announced on their site and I had to wait 1 month just for them to acknowledge their wrongdoing and accept to refund.

By the way, the official KingSong Spain store is not a dedicated store, it is mainly a OneWheel store also with scooters. Not that I expected something different but I thought it was worth mentioning.

A friend who also bought there told me this summer that the KingSong Spain store was hacked, or so this is what they are saying now to keep up with the excuses. Though if true, this is one of the times I'd say they deserved it, as after my experience just reading/hearing the name KingSong makes me sick.

By the way, I'm living in Portugal now and there's no local EUC seller, so please, people spoiled by their incredibly awesome local seller think a little about what would you do if your seller didn't exist or it was a pain to deal with, would you think it would be ok for the manufacturer to lock your wheel because you had no other (good/reasonable) option than to buy from Aliexpress/non-official sellers? (not my case as fortunately I could still import from Poland thanks to Ryszard, but I like to reflect on these issues)

[Peters]

13 hours ago, FinRider said:

There are two sides to every story and not every situation is the same, so we should not generalize this to every consumer and situation.

I have full understanding of what LockSong is doing but I may not agree to how they have implemented this. The good news is that they are working with consumers on a case by case basis to resolve their locking issues on "illegally" imported goods.

I have yet to see the following situation:

1. Someone buys a KS wheel with the "P" designation in the serialnumber from china and self-imports the wheel to EU/US
2. Said person pays all import duties and VAT
3. Said person gets wheel locked remotely by KS
4. Said person show proof of duty & VAT payments 

Most situations skip step 2 and 4 in this scenario, thus they have taken a risk of buying a geo-locked wheel and in my book they can blame themselves for doing a grey import of a device that was ment for another market only. The responsibility is on the reseller, and you can always get a refund if your device is locked.

I have a similar situation with my Toyota Prius that I legally imported from the US to EU. The navigation system in the car needs a map update as it only has the north american map from the factory. Toyota Europe refuses to sell me the map update as the car was not bought in Europe. I think it is shitty practice, but I can not 100% blame them for their policy. This situation is VERY similar.

Manufacturers get away with this because they have a product that the consumer wants. I do not think LockSongs practices will have a long lasting effect on the consumer behavior.

 

 

 

Yes agree, their implementation is punitive to the innocent consumer (who unknowingly or naively purchases their product from an online retailer from China/USA/France/UK/Spain/Or any other location for that matter) then have their product completely stop working one day.

Kingsong should fix their distribution network and sales channels, instead of punishing their failure to do so... on the consumers, who are have no knowledge of such trade/sales policies/disputes, they just merely want a product to enjoy for the life of the product.

By punishing end users/consumers, it will spread decent upon the company and its products. It makes consumers feel they have been cheated and have become the middleman of a proxy trade war / proxy distribution war / proxy sales channel war. The consumer becomes the victim and suffers from such actions. While the sales channel is left unpunished, and the manufacturer gains a bad reputation for being unfair to consumers for blaming and punishing them for their corporate problems and lack of control over their distribution network / sales channel.

By fixing their distribution network and sales channels, they will protect product sales territories with their distributors and retaiilers, while keeping sales channels happy and more importantly consumers happy (and they will spread the news of such products and good business practices... hence Gotway, Inmotion, Ninebot and Veteran have all preserved their good name and good will since they have NOT applied such bad business practices, despite them also experiencing such distribution network and sales channel challenges as Kingsong).

Kingsong really needs to make smarter business decisions moving forward from this point. Lots of damage done to their name and will loose plenty of future sales as the threat of Briking a very expensive toy is always looming over consumers head, and the betrayal of consumer confidence to this brand.

As the saying goes... the punishment does not fit the crime.... especially when the crime was committed by the manufacturer's sales channel/distribution network... NOT the consumer, yet its the consumer that got punished.

Gotway, Inmotion, Ninebot and Veteran, its your time to really take things up a notch and take the lion share of the market now! .... Kingsong is paving the way for you. This opportunity rarely happens in the business world. Make smart moves and one of you guys will take the market amidst the vacuum created by Kingsong, as consumers look for good products backed by good companies! Good Luck!
 

[mrelwood]

 

22 hours ago, FinRider said:

I have yet to see the following situation:

1. Someone buys a KS wheel with the "P" designation in the serialnumber from china and self-imports the wheel to EU/US
2. Said person pays all import duties and VAT
3. Said person gets wheel locked remotely by KS
4. Said person show proof of duty & VAT payments 

Most situations skip step 2 and 4 in this scenario, thus they have taken a risk of buying a geo-locked wheel and in my book they can blame themselves for doing a grey import

This is where most of us seem to disagree. The customers have knowingly taken a risk of lacking support and warranty, not get-locking, since it is very far from standard practices. It’s not reasonable to expect a wheel to be geo-locked.

 Out of curiosity, wasn’t your S18 a direct factory preorder? Have you paid the VAT on it?

22 hours ago, FinRider said:

I have a similar situation with my Toyota Prius that I legally imported from the US to EU. The navigation system in the car needs a map update as it only has the north american map from the factory. Toyota Europe refuses to sell me the map update as the car was not bought in Europe.

There is nothing similar in that situation! Your Toyota still rides, and has all the features it was advertised in having. Them not selling you an ADDITIONAL service is up to them. Nobody is asking KS to sell additional services or products. We are asking KS to NOT do stuff on our wheels. You are asking Toyota to DO a modification to your car. Which still rides.

That’s actually the behavior we are asking for here, to refuse additional services.

[KiwiMark]

I have ordered a Gotway RS from AliExpress (not currently available from local distributors) and I noticed that the store on AliExpress has various EUC brands listed, including Kingsong.  In the AliExpress store under Kingsong there are no EUCs at all - it seems that they have a section for KS but have completely stopped selling them, I didn't know why until I read this thread.

Luckily I didn't want to buy a Kingsong wheel anyway. When I look at the battery/range compared to the price, KS seems to be sorely lacking compared to others.  I'm sure they are good in many ways, but they just don't seem to be good value IMO.

[.....]

1 hour ago, KiwiMark said:

I have ordered a Gotway RS from AliExpress (not currently available from local distributors) and I noticed that the store on AliExpress has various EUC brands listed, including Kingsong.  In the AliExpress store under Kingsong there are no EUCs at all - it seems that they have a section for KS but have completely stopped selling them, I didn't know why until I read this thread.

Luckily I didn't want to buy a Kingsong wheel anyway. When I look at the battery/range compared to the price, KS seems to be sorely lacking compared to others.  I'm sure they are good in many ways, but they just don't seem to be good value IMO.

This is good news! The difference is 'refinement'. Previous KS wheels were at the top of their classes in refinement. Its kind of the same reason you spend more on a lexus than a toyota. Same basic features, but... NOT the same. Specs are only PART of the story. Grats on the Gotway. Gotway is solid and a good bang for the buck, altho 'refined' isnt really their target.

[MrP-MrF]

On 9/28/2020 at 6:15 AM, ShanesPlanet said:

This is good news! The difference is 'refinement'. Previous KS wheels were at the top of their classes in refinement. Its kind of the same reason you spend more on a lexus than a toyota. Same basic features, but... NOT the same. Specs are only PART of the story. Grats on the Gotway. Gotway is solid and a good bang for the buck, altho 'refined' isnt really their target.

Gotway ? solid ? 



This is the joke of the year... Except the Nikola (with pastic shell like inmotion), screws and shell are easily destroyed with simple shock...

[.....]

7 hours ago, MrP-MrF said:

Gotway ? solid ? 



This is the joke of the year... Except the Nikola (with pastic shell like inmotion), screws and shell are easily destroyed with simple shock...

my bad, as in SOLID wheel. I was commenting more on the overall wheel, not focusing on the shell alone. If it wasnt an overall 'solid' wheel, I doubt it would be one of the regs for the nyc crowd. TBH, the shell quality and lack of waterproofing has been a main reason I dont onw a gotway...yet! My standards are slowly lowering to the euc standards tho.

Edited November 20, 2020 by ShanesPlanet

[Corn Flake]

Has this issue been resolved yet?  Does this problem affect wheel purchased from Chicway?  

[Corn Flake]

Thanks @null  

Since the wheel it self does not have GPS, has any one tried the VPN and fake geo-location method mentioned in this thread?  With Android, both are relatively easy hack.   

[.....]

1 hour ago, Corn Flake said:

Thanks @null  

Since the wheel it self does not have GPS, has any one tried the VPN and fake geo-location method mentioned in this thread?  With Android, both are relatively easy hack.   

I agree, it should work. Pretty expensive gamble tho. If a person has the ability to buy a legit wheel (like us in the usa), I would be VERY leery of risking it to save a few $$. Get the spoofing to work and avoid the ks app like the plague and you prolly be okay. Give it a try Corn, order a wheel from abroad and let us know how it goes

[mrelwood]

While spoofing the GPS location might save your wheel from getting locked, it won’t enable speed settings, calibration or updating the FW on EUCW or DarknessBot. Those apps check for the letter ”P” in the actual serial number.

[.....]

8 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

While spoofing the GPS location might save your wheel from getting locked, it won’t enable speed settings, calibration or updating the FW on EUCW or DarknessBot. Those apps check for the letter ”P” in the actual serial number.

Doh, thats a damn good bit of info there. Thanks!

[meriwald]

The solution is simple, just avoid unicycles that you don’t have control over. when you are the legit owner and paid money for it - WTF you can’t use it.

WTF someone leaves the back door to remotely lock your property?

[Svenbo]

I wanted to buy a new wheel soon, but after reading this it surely won't be a a kingsong.

I hope they lose a lot of costumers with doing sh*t like this.

And I hope all people who got their wheels locked will find a way to work arround this problem.

[DjPanJan]

1 hour ago, Svenbo said:

I wanted to buy a new wheel soon, but after reading this it surely won't be a a kingsong.

I hope they lose a lot of costumers with doing sh*t like this.

And I hope all people who got their wheels locked will find a way to work arround this problem.

I own KS16X from https://www.1radwerkstatt.de/ everything OK is european official distributor. Excelent services and my RMA (left brake light not work) they fix free and fast.  This locksong is about EUC from china market.

Shure anything retrospectively aplicated is totaly FAIL to trust company.

I am not on Kingsong "side" if you buy legal official disributor you have 2 years full warranty by Germany LAW then no problem.

Ks16X i can recommended is great EUC if you are under 100Kg and not ride in or after RAIN.

[Tawpie]

It's a good thing we have choices on what we buy and who we buy from! As with most controversial practices, there are myriad sides to the story... I'm not a personal fan of disabling products at all, but also understand there is likely more to the story.

One can spin it as a move to protect their authorized dealer network intended to ensure that their dealers provide good service to us, if somebody is stiffing the customer than maybe they lose their franchise. I wouldn't think this is the case here, but it can be spun that way. If the dealers have to race to the bottom with price, they have to cut somewhere—reducing service level to zero like the non-authorized source becomes viable.

One could imagine that wheels with 'P' in their serial number carry additional surveillance capabilities that are not legal outside of the People's Republic. To me, that's Plausible. Unacceptable to me, so it's a good thing I don't live there. But I certainly wouldn't want discover I have purchased such a product cuz it would be 'locked for me' and out the door pronto. Is your wheel spying on you? (trick question, silly. of course it is!)

It is even possible that a wheel built for export has more attention to safety/quality than do the items intended for domestic consumption and the liability concern is a factor in preventing their use outside of China. Again, that's an overly generous view of the situation that I don't expect to be true but liability and the specter of mandatory warranty coverage could be costly. If you look at automobiles, it's very difficult to use a car in the US that doesn't meet certain safety and emissions standards... the manufacturer can't remotely lock your car (well, Tesla certainly can), but it might not be possible to buy a license for it or get insurance and that effectively prevents its use as a car. Might as well be locked… if you can't drive it it's a showroom bauble.

Anyway, now that the situation is public knowledge we can accept or reject their policy decision with our pocketbooks. And we should, it's our only lever.

Edited January 25, 2021 by Tawpie

[FinRider]

19 hours ago, Tawpie said:

It's a good thing we have choices on what we buy and who we buy from! As with most controversial practices, there are myriad sides to the story... I'm not a personal fan of disabling products at all, but also understand there is likely more to the story.

One can spin it as a move to protect their authorized dealer network intended to ensure that their dealers provide good service to us, if somebody is stiffing the customer than maybe they lose their franchise. I wouldn't think this is the case here, but it can be spun that way. If the dealers have to race to the bottom with price, they have to cut somewhere—reducing service level to zero like the non-authorized source becomes viable.

One could imagine that wheels with 'P' in their serial number carry additional surveillance capabilities that are not legal outside of the People's Republic. To me, that's Plausible. Unacceptable to me, so it's a good thing I don't live there. But I certainly wouldn't want discover I have purchased such a product cuz it would be 'locked for me' and out the door pronto. Is your wheel spying on you? (trick question, silly. of course it is!)

It is even possible that a wheel built for export has more attention to safety/quality than do the items intended for domestic consumption and the liability concern is a factor in preventing their use outside of China. Again, that's an overly generous view of the situation that I don't expect to be true but liability and the specter of mandatory warranty coverage could be costly. If you look at automobiles, it's very difficult to use a car in the US that doesn't meet certain safety and emissions standards... the manufacturer can't remotely lock your car (well, Tesla certainly can), but it might not be possible to buy a license for it or get insurance and that effectively prevents its use as a car. Might as well be locked… if you can't drive it it's a showroom bauble.

Anyway, now that the situation is public knowledge we can accept or reject their policy decision with our pocketbooks. And we should, it's our only lever.

This is an old thread that has been beaten to an inch of its death a couple of times already but simply won't die.

I have a hard time understanding the logic where the company should be completely abandoned just because some people do not want to play by the rules (violate laws and regulations). The facts are simple and indisputable.

1. LockSong has (at least) 2 types of wheels, one aimed for the Peoples Republic of China (domestic market) and one for export. The wheels for export have been designated with the letter "P" in the serial number.
2. LockSong has repeatedly released their policy that wheels intended for the domestic market used outside of its designated area will be "locked" if found to violate their policy.
3. International dealers only sell the wheels intended for export ("P" wheels) --> Buy locally
4. Chinese online retailers sell either the wheel ment for the domestic market or the export wheel. --> buyer beware
5. If you buy a wheel directly from China, you are supposed to pay import duties and applicable VAT for the wheel. The Chinese online sellers circumvent this for the consumer by shipping the wheels from their international warehouse. You as a consumer are thus aiding and abetting the grey import of these wheels.

So if you really want to save a couple hundred €$ then by all mean, buy from Ali, Chicway etc. You will not enjoy the local/regional warranty (as mandated by law) and you will run the risk of getting your wheel remotely bricked.

And I have yet to see someone with a bricked kingsong wheel show proof of paid duties and VAT.

I truly wish we had European / North American manufacturer of EUC's so that we can support our own economies instead of fueling the Chinese... but that is a pipe-dream. Plus if we ever were to get this, then the price of the wheels would be vastly different than what we have today.

 

 

Edited January 26, 2021 by FinRider

[Tawpie]

1 hour ago, FinRider said:

The wheels for export have been designated with the letter "P" in the serial number.

Tiny correction: Wheels with "P" in their serial number are for domestic China and are subject to locking outside the PRC unless you can provide proof of purchase from an authorized dealer and have proper export paperwork. With proper documentation, KS will add your wheel to a whitelist and unlock it. Wheels authorized for export do not have a "P".

[mrelwood]

On 1/26/2021 at 4:14 PM, FinRider said:

This is an old thread that has been beaten to an inch of its death a couple of times already but simply won't die.

Not as long as KS keeps acting on their illegal policy, previously unheard of in the world of EUCs. Luckily such is the world of Internet.

On 1/26/2021 at 4:14 PM, FinRider said:

I have a hard time understanding the logic where the company should be completely abandoned just because some people do not want to play by the rules (violate laws and regulations).

That’s not the reason. The reason is simply KS acting upon their policy, which is illegal in itself (they have zero claim to a product that has legally transferred ownership). And which has also affected many customers outside of their policy.

Should I remind you that every single time you have gone for a ride in the public, you as well have broken the local laws. So perhaps siding with local import regulations isn’t the best angle you can take here, especially when it isn’t even applicable when purchasing from a shop selling from within the EU.

On 1/26/2021 at 4:14 PM, FinRider said:

The facts are simple and indisputable.

More facts:

1. Inmotion also makes separate China and international units. Zero issues.

2. KS also locks up wheels purchased 3 years before KS gave their first announcement of their policy to their distributors. They have also locked some units purchased from local physical EU stores.

3. Aliexpress has several international EUC dealers, with international warehouses.

4. There are only a few shops globally that have a warranty process that works as well or better than with most Aliexpress sellers.

5. The price difference of the 18XL between KS Europe and Chickway is 800€ + shipping. The EU prices are simply not reasonable from any angle.

 

On 1/26/2021 at 4:14 PM, FinRider said:

And I have yet to see someone with a bricked kingsong wheel show proof of paid duties and VAT.

Why/how would they, if the seller shipped from an EU warehouse?

[Planemo]

18 minutes ago, mrelwood said:

Why/how would they, if the seller shipped from an EU warehouse?

That's a fair point. As much as I have stated previously that I kinda get that KS can do what they want with illegally imported wheels from China, in the case of a Euro buyer purchasing via Ali, shipped from a (claimed) euro warehouse, I think the issue should be between KS and the Ali seller, not the buyer. KS should simply close off the supply chain to the Ali seller in question if that's what they want, but to sanction the customer in this example by bricking their wheel is indeed out of order.

The buyer in this example may have legitimately thought he was buying a proper, Euro spec wheel. He could argue he wasn't trying to circumvent any taxes/duties etc as the shipper claimed it was already in Euro stock, with all taxes paid. No different to buying from say Speedy.

As I say, a valid point mrelwood.

[Zopper]

My issue with KS is not that they don’t want China wheels in other markets, but that they are actively bricking wheels. If they did the same thing as inmotion, I wouldn’t mind. IM (AFAIK) has two apps - one for China in Chinesse app stores, and one for the rest of the world. China wheels can be connected only with China app. So you can’t unlock it after delivery with official IM app, etc, but it won’t be bricked just because some else tried to connect to it.

 

By the way, I would like to know what happens if I buy a China KS when traveling in China, and take it out some time later. I guess they will brick it anyway, even if I rode it before. Which... is absolutely wrong. 

Edited January 29, 2021 by Zopper

[Svenbo]

1 hour ago, Zopper said:

By the way, I would like to know what happens if I buy a China KS when traveling in China, and take it out some time later. I guess they will brick it anyway, even if I rode it before. Which... is absolutely wrong. 

That's another way to think about it. Imagine a car manufacturer locking your car, because you drive to another country for holidays and suddenly when you cross the border it just stops working, because it was not sold for this country

No one would ever imagine a car manufacturer would do somethink like this, but for EUCs people here are defending practices like this... Both are just ways of transport and IMO if I buy one I want to be able to use it in every country I am going to visit.

[Corn Flake]

On 1/29/2021 at 12:53 AM, Svenbo said:

No one would ever imagine a car manufacturer would do somethink like this, but for EUCs people here are defending practices like this... Both are just ways of transport and IMO if I buy one I want to be able to use it in every country I am going to visit.

I love that example.  Locking mobility device because it moves across boarder!!  

Knowing how Chinese company works, I wouldn't be surprised KS will simply start supplying their Chinese Ali seller with international version of the same wheel.  

[Jean eRide.ie Community]

On 3/15/2021 at 9:43 AM, Corn Flake said:

I love that example.  Locking mobility device because it moves across boarder!!  

Knowing how Chinese company works, I wouldn't be surprised KS will simply start supplying their Chinese Ali seller with international version of the same wheel.  

There currently is Aliexpress sellers, saying it's the EU version, many sellers, and also chicway. 

Some don't mention KingSong on the title, but you can find by searching electric unicycle 

Edited June 1, 2021 by Jean eRide.ie Community