Blicky Te⚡️la Posted August 4, 2020 Share Posted August 4, 2020 On 7/28/2020 at 3:28 AM, UniVehje said: Yes, definitely. One of the most important aspects of it IMO. Especially if you didn’t see them coming. I’d go as far as saying it’s a lost opportunity for them not to push this in their marketing. City and Trails 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Finn Bjerke Posted August 12, 2020 Author Share Posted August 12, 2020 No negative chambers ??? I find that a little hard to believe. ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skecys Posted August 13, 2020 Share Posted August 13, 2020 Aesthetics aside; I think the S18 will be a better out of the box off-road experience. Lets face it, the most important thing is the suspension right? The S18's suspension design is superior. It has more travel (10cm vs the V11's 7cm) and it has a single shock that is "easily" accessible. The V11 has to be partially disassembled to get to the negative chamber, won't be easy to change or experiment with setups once on a trail. The S18 also comes with built in "Kuji pads" (could be a detriment if the placement hurts your ankles). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 9 hours ago, Skecys said: Lets face it, the most important thing is the suspension right? Wrong. We have used non-suspension EUCs for years for off-roading, some up to very hard core levels. That capability does not go away with advancements on new wheels. What is very well known is that for off-roading, especially on an EUC where even a small slip is often a cause for having to bail, tire grip is what makes or breaks the experience and capability. I was blown away the first time I tried a knobby on the MSX. Every other modification or feature you might add or upgrade to feels puny in comparison. Just today me and my brother ended up on a tiny forest path with a few muddy spots. My H-666 on the MSX is worn badly enough that it doesn't grip at all even in the thinnest mud. My brother's 18XL (C-1488, same as on the V11) did clearly better, and he was able to ride even over fallen trees still when I had to walk. Even the best suspension in the world wouldn't have helped me in the slightest. The slick H-5102 street tire on the S18 offers no grip at all on mud, and very little on other wet off-road conditions. Even less than my current worn out H-666. The crossover C-1488 of the V11 does much better in this regard. Switch the tires around and even I might choose the S18 for a tough off-road section. 9 hours ago, Skecys said: The S18's suspension design is superior. It has more travel (10cm vs the V11's 7cm) V11 has 8.5cm of travel. Either the S18 suspension execution doesn't match the design, or the design just isn't superior. The designs are different, both having pros and cons. On an MTB track Chooch was much faster and in better control on the V11 than the S18. 9 hours ago, Skecys said: The V11 has to be partially disassembled to get to the negative chamber, won't be easy to change or experiment with setups once on a trail. That is indeed a downside, since they upgraded the shock after designing the wheel for single valve shocks. Although, I'm pretty sure that once I dial in optimal pressures a bit, I won't be pumping the suspension on the go. Btw, the top chamber on the S18 is not accessible either when in a riding setup. 9 hours ago, Skecys said: The S18 also comes with built in "Kuji pads" (could be a detriment if the placement hurts your ankles). Some riders with a bit more meat in their calves find the S18 pedals too narrow, since they cant fit in properly to the recessed shapes of the shell. That's why DIY pads are being used by some on the S18 as well. Comparing the wheels on paper is one thing, having the option to try both (or even watching such comparison reviews) is way another. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skecys Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: What is very well known is that for off-roading, especially on an EUC where even a small slip is often a cause for having to bail, tire grip is what makes or breaks the experience and capability. I was blown away the first time I tried a knobby on the MSX. Every other modification or feature you might add or upgrade to feels puny in comparison. Yeah but you can simply change the tire... 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: V11 has 8.5cm of travel. Either the S18 suspension execution doesn't match the design, or the design just isn't superior. The designs are different, both having pros and cons. On an MTB track Chooch was much faster and in better control on the V11 than the S18. I mean superior as in the entire chassis has suspension. The S18 is comparable to a car; the wheel moves, but everything else stays level. The V11 would have a spring under your seat, the entire car is unsprung and moves, only your seat remains level. The real world benefits might not matter as much but at least the control board and batteries also get the benefit of a smoother ride on the S18, unlike on the V11. 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: Some riders with a bit more meat in their calves find the S18 pedals too narrow, since they cant fit in properly to the recessed shapes of the shell. That's why DIY pads are being used by some on the S18 as well. You can change the height of the pedals on the S18. Chances are you can find a good fit. Also the retail version has bigger, softer pads all around. Edited August 14, 2020 by Skecys Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) Comparing these two wheels is probably an exercise in futility. ALL the specs and theories in the world are being undermined by build quality differences and other factors. One MAY have a superior suspension setup in theory, but in practice, the sum of the parts is more important. I was SADLY mistaken when I relied on suspension theory and design in my purchase decision. Looks can be deceiving! I wonder how many other people will allow themselves to come to the same conclusion? Edited August 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
..... Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 1 hour ago, mrelwood said: Btw, the top chamber on the S18 is not accessible either when in a riding setup. This is not true. It can be adjusted, aired up/down its just not easy. It is easier to start from zero pressure, but you can adjust it either way. Not worth the trouble tho.. Didnt KS decide to go to another style of shock that has only one valve, thus making it a moot point? If they did, we can surely assume the ks18 will be easier to adjust than the v11, but I'm still not convinced it matters much in the grander scheme. Edited August 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 19 minutes ago, Skecys said: Yeah but you can simply change the tire... Of course. That doesn’t make the suspension the most important part though, which was what I commented on. 19 minutes ago, Skecys said: I mean superior as in the entire chassis has suspension. One aspect of a design doesn’t make the complete system superior. There are probably hundreds of posts already touting the better design of the S18 suspension, either because of unsprung weight or the progressive lineage system. Yet in practice it makes so little difference that the V11 with the “inferior” suspension design is still a better off-roader in some circumstances. 19 minutes ago, Skecys said: Also the retail version has bigger, softer pads all around. Some reviewer mentioned them not being very soft after all, especially the part at the rider’s ankle. But sure, they probably fit most riders well enough. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted August 14, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 14 minutes ago, mrelwood said: Of course. That doesn’t make the suspension the most important part though, which was what I commented on. One aspect of a design doesn’t make the complete system superior. There are probably hundreds of posts already touting the better design of the S18 suspension, either because of unsprung weight or the progressive lineage system. Yet in practice it makes so little difference that the V11 with the “inferior” suspension design is still a better off-roader in some circumstances. Some reviewer mentioned them not being very soft after all, especially the part at the rider’s ankle. But sure, they probably fit most riders well enough. BAM, nail on the head! Fwiw, the pads of the s18 are NOT comfortable. Youll either toughen up to it, or ride a much looser stance. Ironic that Kuji designed the pads, yet he immediately added crap cheap bumper pads on top. Surely people can read into that and be accurate in what they come up with?! I havent forgotten when Kuji carefully mentioned the s18 makes a great novice/intermediate wheel. Thats the nice way of saying... its got no fukn balls man. I'm going to keep my eyes open for how the v11 comes along. I have a feeling it will make it to my collection next year, unless another brand tackles the same thing better. Currently Im eating crow, as I was one to praise the superior design of the s18 suspension. In practice...... well, lets just say Im back to riding a non suspension wheel and was dead wrong. Lesson learned...AGAIN. Too bad I'm sure I'll still remain thick headed and be wrong in the future too. I'm already touted as an idiot and my opinion on the s18 isnt making me any friends for sure. Funny how I make a shit video and mention the s18 and get MASSIVE views and mostly bitter people attacking me. I guess a persons opinions are only acceptable when agreeable. If not, you MUST be a fool and idiot. Edited August 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrelwood Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 2 minutes ago, ShanesPlanet said: Ironic that Kuji designed the pads, yet he immediately added crap cheap bumper pads on top. Oh right, the same stuff that Chooch used to make the V11 a jumper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pico Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 4 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: I guess a persons opinions are only acceptable when agreeable. If not, you MUST be a fool and idiot. Geez! I must write down that piece of wisdom! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skecys Posted August 14, 2020 Share Posted August 14, 2020 7 hours ago, mrelwood said: Of course. That doesn’t make the suspension the most important part though, which was what I commented on It is when you are buying a suspension wheel? This thread is about suspension wheels? You can't change the suspension... 7 hours ago, mrelwood said: One aspect of a design doesn’t make the complete system superior. There are probably hundreds of posts already touting the better design of the S18 suspension, either because of unsprung weight or the progressive lineage system. Yet in practice it makes so little difference that the V11 with the “inferior” suspension design is still a better off-roader in some circumstances. I'm talking facts, not opinion. KS's design is simply more advanced. Like I said; whether or not this makes a noticeable real life difference, is up in the air until you try them. 7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: Ironic that Kuji designed the pads, yet he immediately added crap cheap bumper pads on top. He did that on the pre-production model. 7 hours ago, ShanesPlanet said: Funny how I make a shit video and mention the s18 and get MASSIVE views and mostly bitter people attacking me. I guess a persons opinions are only acceptable when agreeable. If not, you MUST be a fool and idiot. That video is basically a rant where every point you make is easily refuted. I understand you were angry and needed to vent but you can't expect much positivity there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post ..... Posted August 14, 2020 Popular Post Share Posted August 14, 2020 (edited) 7 hours ago, Skecys said: It is when you are buying a suspension wheel? This thread is about suspension wheels? You can't change the suspension... I'm talking facts, not opinion. KS's design is simply more advanced. Like I said; whether or not this makes a noticeable real life difference, is up in the air until you try them. He did that on the pre-production model. That video is basically a rant where every point you make is easily refuted. I understand you were angry and needed to vent but you can't expect much positivity there. And we still see pads being put on the production models. KS design may be more 'advanced' in one area, but implementation is a little meager. You are right, most of my videos are unprepared rants. I dont know how easily it is to refute that I had multiple screws missing, and firmware changes that caught me off guard and made trolleying and handle behavior differ, w/o notice. Since then , they have started giving out release notes, but that was AFTER the fact in my case. I was hoping for more easily accessible torque, tho that was my fault as the specs show that its the same as their other 18" offerings. I won't mention the other issues that have arisen even after I sold it to a new owner. I don't expect positivity at all, but blindly attacking a person because of their opinions (some were factual) still catches me off guard. Now I dont know if the v11 is better, but i EXPECTED better from the s18. Perhaps I cut the video down to the worst parts, perhaps its silly of me to be upset that I spend 3 months waiting and +2 months salary on something and it was in less than rideable condition when it arrived. Being told by KS to take screws to match them up at my hardware store (an hour away), rather than knowing what size they are, didnt help. I was fairly surprised as I know KS can make a wheel in better condition than what i received. I'd imagine most of the people I butthurt, havent even seen an s18 in person, nor did they bother to understand what problems I was bitching about. In the end, the s18 did offer a suspension and the possibility of being something that my 18L was not. However, it also lacked in a few areas and it was a disappointing and expensive lesson. I still WISH the s18 had been a keeper. Im not a fan of buying and selling items, but thats what had to happen. If its ANY consolation, I do love my 18L and mten. Neither of them are perfect and have their own little niggles. I only mention this to illustrate that I'm not IMPOSSIBLE to please, as its been known to happen in the past. I'd consider BOTH of those wheels to be worth what I paid and acceptable in build quality and design. I'm sure most people are getting s18's w/o similar issues. I'm hopeful they figure it out. The s18 could be a very nice and fun wheel. It just didnt workout for me is all. My interpretation of the events and how I perceived them to effect my personal enjoyment, IS merely opinion. Edited August 14, 2020 by ShanesPlanet 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Paulo Mesquita Posted March 7, 2021 Popular Post Share Posted March 7, 2021 On 8/14/2020 at 3:47 AM, ShanesPlanet said: BAM, nail on the head! Fwiw, the pads of the s18 are NOT comfortable. Youll either toughen up to it, or ride a much looser stance. Ironic that Kuji designed the pads, yet he immediately added crap cheap bumper pads on top. Surely people can read into that and be accurate in what they come up with?! I havent forgotten when Kuji carefully mentioned the s18 makes a great novice/intermediate wheel. Thats the nice way of saying... its got no fukn balls man. I'm going to keep my eyes open for how the v11 comes along. I have a feeling it will make it to my collection next year, unless another brand tackles the same thing better. Currently Im eating crow, as I was one to praise the superior design of the s18 suspension. In practice...... well, lets just say Im back to riding a non suspension wheel and was dead wrong. Lesson learned...AGAIN. Too bad I'm sure I'll still remain thick headed and be wrong in the future too. I'm already touted as an idiot and my opinion on the s18 isnt making me any friends for sure. Funny how I make a shit video and mention the s18 and get MASSIVE views and mostly bitter people attacking me. I guess a persons opinions are only acceptable when agreeable. If not, you MUST be a fool and idiot. @ShanesPlanet history with the KS s18 (keep in mind that I'm a rookie and I've only had the KS 16X which I believe to be an outstanding wheel and that i was damn lucky for it to have been my 1st wheel) reminds me of a personal story that happened to me 27 years ago and that illustrates a paradigm common to the S18 sad experience with @ShanesPlanet: In 1994, I left BBDO Advertising (was a creative director there) and witrh a hefty sum of compensation I decided to buy my dream car, since I only owned junk cars and company cars up to that date. There was, on the Europeanmarket, a brand new Land Rover jeep!!!! Beautiful thing, with 243 improvements on the older models that had been around for decades. And this idiot strolled into a dealership and bought one whith all the bells and whistles (extras), spending quite a chunk of his compensation money. Well, this is what happened: 1) after doiing the 1st 7.5km revision (oil, etc), right in the middle of downtown Lisbon and at a red traffic light...the engine oil (8lts) just dropped down onto onto the road due to a faulty cap...Must have been one of the 243 fantastic improvements! 2) a few months later the fancy new desing dashboard started turn itself in to a tsunamy wave,and later into an authentic rollercoaster. The reason according to the dealership: a strange virus attacked the sinthetic compound material of the dashboard...and the guarantee didn't cover... another one of the 243 fantastic improvements??? 3) The motorhead burned up at 25.000kms. It was repaired 4) then it burned up at at 53.000kms! I was repared 5) at 75.000 kms, while riding on a highway, full of speeding heavy duty trucs, and on a stormy day (pouring down)...the engine burned up again, but this time...catching fire. I took my wife and 3 month old baby daughter out, climbed 30meters of a muddy hiil, under heavy rain and with my baby in my arms, went over a barbed wire low fence and foud a coffee shop to shelter us. When I went out into the rain, from the top of the hill I say my Land Rover still with burning motor. 6) totally dismayed by my ordeals with this expensive car (what I paid for that Land Rover at the time would be in nowadays about 100k)...I sold it. A couple of years later, I found out that the reason for the motor having burned 3 times in 75.000kms whas due to a simple joint (2mm thick) in the new water cooling pump valve. Replacing that joint, if Rover had told it's 1994 model clients, would have cost 7 bucks!!! ...of course that water pump, valve and joint were part of the 243 improvements on the 1994 Land rover... MORAL OF (MY PERSONAL) STORY: never buy any new product with too many revolutionary set of improvements...until the feedback tells you it's completely safe!!! ...this is probably what happened with @ShanesPlanet and his s18. I have a simple rule (especially having been an advertiser for 30 years, I'm oblidged to respect): skip two generations of a product rollout and only buy the 3rd (if i'ts not...too Land Roverish revolutionary) I have the Huawei Mate Pro 20, I've seen the 30 and 40 come out. Maybe one day I'll upgrade to the 50...maybe not. Same thing with the iPhones here at home. (ironically I launched Apple In Portugal but I'm the only one inthe family who doesn't like the iPhone ...I got a bit off track here...but it is tru that there is alot of hype when there's innovation with a new and passionate sprot or hobby. So we all have to be extra careful with some of the "reviews" that come out. We need to take some of them with a "pinch of salt". After all, followers on YT, FB, INSTA and Twitter...are a money making machine ...just my $0.2.... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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